Any Idea? Weird HDD problem

[Douwe]

Hi,
Working with Windows ME on a pc with a MSI K7T Pro mobo, used two HDD's, a
80 Gb Maxtor 6L080J4 (IDE) and a 40 Gb Maxtor.
That one was near full, so I decided to exchange that one for a Maxtor 80
Gb-6Y080P0, as the other one, except a 8Mb cache, in stead off 2 Mb.

Updated the BIOS of the K7T Pro, with full reset, so it might be possible
some setting is wrong.

Now when I move or copy files from old to new, the system becomes as slow as
could be. First two or three are okay, than, per example, clicking on File -
new folder - it takes near 2 minutes before I see the new pictogram, change
the word 'newfolder' into whatever, press enter; have to wait another near 2
minutes, before I can press enter to open the newly created folder. Than,
after another two minutes I'm able to copy ore move files to there

What did I do:
In MS-config unselected all active programs, including spam- and virus
watcher.
Installed a memory manager, three different programs, no result. It doesn't
seem to be a memory problem.
Used PowerMax 4 to test the new HDD, is okay.
Replaced the Matrox Marvel AGP for a brand new ASUS MX4000 (128 Mb versus 8
Mb)

Some person asked if 'this was a regular IDE-disk, not a S-ATA or so...
That made me think...
On www.maxtor.com it says Ultra ATA/133 & SATA 150 and that puzzles me....
Is this still standard IDE?

Any Idea where it comes from, this snail like working?

 

[kony]

Hi,
Working with Windows ME on a pc with a MSI K7T Pro mobo, used two HDD's, a
80 Gb Maxtor 6L080J4 (IDE) and a 40 Gb Maxtor.
That one was near full, so I decided to exchange that one for a Maxtor 80
Gb-6Y080P0, as the other one, except a 8Mb cache, in stead off 2 Mb.

Updated the BIOS of the K7T Pro, with full reset, so it might be possible
some setting is wrong.

Does K7T Pro use the Via 686 southbridge?
If so, it has the potential IDE data-corruption problem.
An online search will provide more detail, search for "Via
Latency Patch", and use the newest Via 4in1 driver.

Now when I move or copy files from old to new, the system becomes as slow as
could be.

Check Device Manager, properties for both drives should show the
DMA checkbox, checked... check it if it isn't.

First two or three are okay, than, per example, clicking on File -
new folder - it takes near 2 minutes before I see the new pictogram, change
the word 'newfolder' into whatever, press enter; have to wait another near 2
minutes, before I can press enter to open the newly created folder. Than,
after another two minutes I'm able to copy ore move files to there

I "could" be wrong, but believe that Win9x has a memory bug such
that this will happen after copying a lot of files. At one point
I was thinking about trying to investigate and solve this
problem, but like many things it took a back seat to other more
pressing matters (plus newer OS came out).

If you have Explorer extensions installed, like those with
Norton/Symantec software, McAfee/Network Associates, or other 3rd
party features, uninstall them, then having an idea of what it
took to cause the problem, try to recreating problem.

What did I do:
In MS-config unselected all active programs, including spam- and virus
watcher.
Installed a memory manager, three different programs, no result. It doesn't
seem to be a memory problem.

Don't have memory managers or any type of "helper" software
running, it is not going to be of benefit. Could be just the
opposite, that a clean install wouldn't show this problem. There
is something else to test - backup current OS install, create
clean install and see if problem persists. If it does, restore
backup, but if problem is resolved, keep new OS install instead.

Used PowerMax 4 to test the new HDD, is okay.
Replaced the Matrox Marvel AGP for a brand new ASUS MX4000 (128 Mb versus 8
Mb)

Some person asked if 'this was a regular IDE-disk, not a S-ATA or so...
That made me think...
On www.maxtor.com it says Ultra ATA/133 & SATA 150 and that puzzles me....
Is this still standard IDE?

Yes, if it uses the 40-pin connector like the other drives, then
it isn't SATA. ATA133 and SATA are two distinctly different
intefaces, a drive can only be one or the other (unless you buy a
3rd party adapter to convert one to the other).

Any Idea where it comes from, this snail like working?

You could try (temporarily) disabling audio and see if that makes
a difference. Above I mentioned the potential that this problem
is unique to Win9x... although the problem may be resolved and
allow you to still run WinM (one of the Win9x family) it should
also be resolved by using Win2K or XP instead, though I'd try a
clean install of WInME before purchasing 2K or XP... that is if
you were otherwise happy with WinME (some people are, some
aren't).

 

[Douwe]

Does K7T Pro use the Via 686 southbridge?
If so, it has the potential IDE data-corruption problem.
An online search will provide more detail, search for "Via
Latency Patch", and use the newest Via 4in1 driver.

I can't find an answer to this; I'll take it for granted that MSI / VIA
repaired this and I used the latest 4in1 driver. Can't reach the site for
some mysterious reason (http://download.viahardware.com/vlatency_v019.zip.)

I "could" be wrong, but believe that Win9x has a memory bug such
that this will happen after copying a lot of files. At one point
I was thinking about trying to investigate and solve this
problem, but like many things it took a back seat to other more
pressing matters (plus newer OS came out).

I don't know if there was any, worked with 98 - 98SE - ME from the day they
came. Have to use DOS on this same machine (still working with Lotus 123),
so XP is out of order there.

If you have Explorer extensions installed, like those with
Norton/Symantec software, McAfee/Network Associates, or other 3rd
party features, uninstall them, then having an idea of what it
took to cause the problem, try to recreating problem.

No, at this moment I don't have any of this running. As I wrote, in MSconfig
I closed all opening programs, one of the first things I do whenever
problems occur.

Don't have memory managers or any type of "helper" software
running, it is not going to be of benefit. Could be just the
opposite, that a clean install wouldn't show this problem. There
is something else to test - backup current OS install, create
clean install and see if problem persists. If it does, restore
backup, but if problem is resolved, keep new OS install instead.

Did a clean install, still the same problem

Yes, if it uses the 40-pin connector like the other drives, then
it isn't SATA. ATA133 and SATA are two distinctly different
intefaces, a drive can only be one or the other (unless you buy a
3rd party adapter to convert one to the other).

I do, the 40-pin connector with the 80-core round cable.

You could try (temporarily) disabling audio and see if that makes
a difference. Above I mentioned the potential that this problem
is unique to Win9x... although the problem may be resolved and
allow you to still run WinM (one of the Win9x family) it should
also be resolved by using Win2K or XP instead, though I'd try a
clean install of WInME before purchasing 2K or XP... that is if
you were otherwise happy with WinME (some people are, some
aren't).

I am (WAS!) happy with ME, there's nothing wrong with it, except the large
HD-drive one needs (ME is copied and the back-up).

Thank you for your help, no luck so far, except for the Via-patch, not tried
(and not sure it's necessary)

 

[Duddits]

Hi,
Working with Windows ME on a pc with a MSI K7T Pro mobo, used two HDD's, a
80 Gb Maxtor 6L080J4 (IDE) and a 40 Gb Maxtor.
That one was near full, so I decided to exchange that one for a Maxtor 80
Gb-6Y080P0, as the other one, except a 8Mb cache, in stead off 2 Mb.

Updated the BIOS of the K7T Pro, with full reset, so it might be possible
some setting is wrong.

Now when I move or copy files from old to new, the system becomes as slow as
could be. First two or three are okay, than, per example, clicking on File -
new folder - it takes near 2 minutes before I see the new pictogram, change
the word 'newfolder' into whatever, press enter; have to wait another near 2
minutes, before I can press enter to open the newly created folder. Than,
after another two minutes I'm able to copy ore move files to there

What did I do:
In MS-config unselected all active programs, including spam- and virus
watcher.
Installed a memory manager, three different programs, no result. It doesn't
seem to be a memory problem.
Used PowerMax 4 to test the new HDD, is okay.
Replaced the Matrox Marvel AGP for a brand new ASUS MX4000 (128 Mb versus 8
Mb)

Some person asked if 'this was a regular IDE-disk, not a S-ATA or so...
That made me think...
On www.maxtor.com it says Ultra ATA/133 & SATA 150 and that puzzles me....
Is this still standard IDE?

Any Idea where it comes from, this snail like working?

Do you have DMA enabled?
http://snipurl.com/7pet

regards

Dud

 

[kony]

I can't find an answer to this; I'll take it for granted that MSI / VIA
repaired this and I used the latest 4in1 driver.

Yes, it uses Via 686B southbridge.

Can't reach the site for
some mysterious reason (http://download.viahardware.com/vlatency_v019.zip.)
http://69.36.189.159/vlatency_v019.zip




No, at this moment I don't have any of this running. As I wrote, in MSconfig
I closed all opening programs, one of the first things I do whenever
problems occur.

If the applications are installed, the extensions will be also,
some of which cannot even be deselected, no choice not to install
them. You will not be able to disable them by using MSCONFIG,
and they will not be visable if you hit <CTRL><ALT><DEL>. The
only way to be rid of them is a manual registry edit, which could
cause error messages if done improperly (I cannot provide a guide
to doing this) or uninstalling programs. Uninstalling the
programs is the highly preferred solution.

While on the topic, scan system for spyware/viri/etc.

Did a clean install, still the same problem

Oh well, nevermind the above then.

I do, the 40-pin connector with the 80-core round cable.



I am (WAS!) happy with ME, there's nothing wrong with it, except the large
HD-drive one needs (ME is copied and the back-up).

When using the Via 4in1, you should be able to use large drives
(in Windows, and DOS window running windows but not booted to DOS
beyond the 128GB limit (could limit that with partitioning below
that limit)), but over 128 (real) GB you'd not be able to use MS
Scandisk or Disk Defrag... in such cases it is the exception to
my aversion to Norton/Symantec products, that their utility suite
includes a Disk Doctor and Speed Disk application that will work,
are suitable replacements for Win9x.

Thank you for your help, no luck so far, except for the Via-patch, not tried
(and not sure it's necessary)

There were few manual ways to change bios settings for some of
the benefits of the patch. A couple of bios setting changes that
you might try:

PCI Delay Transaction - Disable

PCI Latency - Increase to 80 or above. For example, if presently
set to 32, set to 80. If set to 64-80, try 96.

I had assumed your system is not overclocked. If it is, to the
extent that the FSB is higher and putting the PCI bus out of
spec, return it to non-overclocked values for testing.

A damaged IDE cable (or just not plugged in good) can also cause
problems, but generally it does more than pause Explorer, can
make all activity pause.

 

[Douwe]

Do you have DMA enabled?
http://snipurl.com/7pet

regards

Dud

They are. Thank you Dud.

 

[Douwe]

Yes, it uses Via 686B southbridge.

(http://download.viahardware.com/vlatency_v019.zip.)

http://69.36.189.159/vlatency_v019.zip

This time the e-mail address is near for real, only the last character
should be com. Maybe some nice person here is able to mail me the
vlatency_v019.zip, please?

Dear Kony, I'll get back on this when that patch is installed.
Thank you so far

Douwe

 

[kony]

This time the e-mail address is near for real, only the last character
should be com. Maybe some nice person here is able to mail me the
vlatency_v019.zip, please?

OOPS!
Forgot to verify the link as working, sorry about that.
It should've been,
http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/vlatency_v019.zip

 

[Trent©]

Hi,
Working with Windows ME on a pc with a MSI K7T Pro mobo, used two HDD's, a
80 Gb Maxtor 6L080J4 (IDE) and a 40 Gb Maxtor.

Boot into safe mode...delete ALL hard drives that you find...reboot.
Make sure any optical drives you have are lettered for the end of the
food chain...R, W, etc.

That one was near full, so I decided to exchange that one for a Maxtor 80
Gb-6Y080P0, as the other one, except a 8Mb cache, in stead off 2 Mb.

Updated the BIOS of the K7T Pro, with full reset, so it might be possible
some setting is wrong.

You need to determine if yer problem is a BIOS or hard drive
problem...or an operating system problem.

First...double check yer jumper settings on the drive. And don't take
the settings for granted. Make sure you read the schematic on the top
of the drives.

Then double check all yer BIOS settings.

Then boot into a system disk...and use some DOS commands to transfer
the files. That should give you an indication as to where to go next.

What did I do:
In MS-config unselected all active programs, including spam- and virus
watcher.

Programs?...or processes? Programs will probably not be yer
problem...but running processes could definitely be. Close as many
processes as you can. End It All 2 is a good program to help you do
this.

Are you running any anti-virus program? These programs often load
part of their protection before Windows fully loads. So uninstall
them...'till you find the problem. You can always uninstall them
later.

Have you check yer CPU usage?...to see which program/process may be
using up resources?

I'm assuming yer not running a network of any kind.

Good luck...let us know.


Have a nice week...

Trent©

What do you call a smart blonde?
A golden retriever.

 

[Douwe]

Yes, it uses Via 686B southbridge.

Thank you for helping, but this didn't solve the problem; it's still
installed

When using the Via 4in1, you should be able to use large drives
(in Windows, and DOS window running windows but not booted to DOS
beyond the 128GB limit (could limit that with partitioning below
that limit)), but over 128 (real) GB you'd not be able to use MS
Scandisk or Disk Defrag... in such cases it is the exception to
my aversion to Norton/Symantec products, that their utility suite
includes a Disk Doctor and Speed Disk application that will work,
are suitable replacements for Win9x.

Have this other 80 Mb HD (Maxtor 6L080J4) over a year now and it works fine.

There were few manual ways to change bios settings for some of
the benefits of the patch. A couple of bios setting changes that
you might try:

PCI Delay Transaction - Disable

PCI Latency - Increase to 80 or above. For example, if presently
set to 32, set to 80. If set to 64-80, try 96.

I had assumed your system is not overclocked. If it is, to the
extent that the FSB is higher and putting the PCI bus out of
spec, return it to non-overclocked values for testing.

A damaged IDE cable (or just not plugged in good) can also cause
problems, but generally it does more than pause Explorer, can
make all activity pause.

Cannot find the PCI-adjustments in the BIOS, suppose these aren't there.

While working at the machine, such as a simple uncompress a zipped file, it
takes hours for just 100 kB files. This is unworkable this way... A Restart
helps, but after copying files, the same problems occur.

Don't know what to do any more.

Douwe

 

[Trent©]

Don't know what to do any more.

Besides all the suggestions I gave you in my previous post, try
reverting to the old BIOS.

When making changes like you've done, you should NEVER do 2 or more at
the same time. Do one...see how it goes...then do another.

Good luck.


Have a nice week...

Trent©

What do you call a smart blonde?
A golden retriever.

 

[Douwe]

Besides all the suggestions I gave you in my previous post, try
reverting to the old BIOS.

When making changes like you've done, you should NEVER do 2 or more at
the same time. Do one...see how it goes...then do another.

Good luck.


Have a nice week...

Trent©

With respect, it's not so strange to flash the bios before installing a HD,
is it?

Regards,
Douwe

 

[kony]

With respect, it's not so strange to flash the bios before installing a HD,
is it?

It's not strange, but your problem is, so we have to consider all
potential issues.

You might try swapping drive IDE positions and see if same drive
still has a problem. Try that drive in a different system. I
may be overlooking something but it seems like we're narrowing
down possibilities towards it being a malfunctioning drive.

 

[Trent©]

With respect, it's not so strange to flash the bios before installing a HD,
is it?

Pretty much! lol

Furthermore...you should NEVER flash a BIOS...unless you have a
REASON!

If it ain't broke...don't fix it!

Was there anything not running properly?...that caused you to flash
the BIOS?

Did you try doing a copy or move from DOS? Did you turn off any
caching before you flashed the BIOS?

Good luck...let us know.


Have a nice week...

Trent©

What do you call a smart blonde?
A golden retriever.

 

[Fuzzie Dice]

Did this happen on the other HD?

Also, I noticed that Windows Explorer (in Win98SE anyway) WILL slow down to
a crawl if you've been copying/moving a large amount of data. I found using
2xExplorer makes things go much faster. Don't know if it'll help in this
case, though.

 

[Douwe]

It's not strange, but your problem is, so we have to consider all
potential issues.

The problem might be gone, don't know for sure, have to make space to test.
Replaced a round IDE-cable for an original 80 core IDE-cable. That worked
fine with the old 40GB + 80 GB but might be the problem between those two 80
GB's.

Thank you all for your time and efforts.

Frans

 

[will]

see my post here
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=f...ng=d&[email protected]&rnum=3
i have 2x 6L080J4 "Ball Bearings" <--these were fine
and 2x 6L080L4 "Maxtor Fluid Dynamic Bearings" <---I had both fail in
just under a month each and replaced (they one with an older model and one
with a newer maxtor model which makes the fluid bearing components look sus
imho)

They are the last of the rebadged quantum fireballs (which rocked btw) that
maxtor has added its technology to (and i think they may have become very
sensitive drives afterwards so use a fan on them and do not bump them at
all. I think mine that failed probably got bumped a lot in transit because I
live in Australia 200k north of the city (my replacements came in a huge box
full of foam lol).
see my comments on using scandisk and then maxtor utils to quickly diagnose
and get a replacement if you really truly need one.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=f...d&[email protected]&rnum=20

since the 2 failures all my drives and replacments have been happy for 2
years so far.

also read this... if you have doubts
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&rnum=40

regards,
will
http://www.fileant.com

 

[Douwe]

see my post here
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=f...ng=d&[email protected]&rnum=3
i have 2x 6L080J4 "Ball Bearings" <--these were fine
and 2x 6L080L4 "Maxtor Fluid Dynamic Bearings" <---I had both fail in
just under a month each and replaced (they one with an older model and one
with a newer maxtor model which makes the fluid bearing components look sus
imho)

Thank you Will for trying. Both the HDD are perfect, as I have (until now)
had only one Maxtor doa. Set-up about one pc each month (for friends, not my
profession).
Sorry to read you're not happy with this make.

Douwe

 

[will]

I posted here to offer you a likely possibilty and never said I was unhappy
with anything (Being the part time nerd that I am I was actually happy when
I found out they were rebadged new Quantum Fireballs ). Probably only 1%
of the drive is Maxtor built.

If you have the "S57" error (which you have described some of the known
early symptoms of) you will most likely not notice until your files start
frazzling and windows freezes several months from now (even with different
4in1 drivers).

To say a drive is even close enough to 'perfect' you would need to wait a
month or two and test it with the Maxtor utility which will check the disk
several ways at low level from a boot disk. Even if you do find the problem
seems to go away if you change cables or drivers they may come back in a
more nasty form if these things are just concealing a real problem. btw the
cable and new drivers are probably both reducing the heat of the drive. You
may well have already tested with the Maxtor drive test utility (you did not
indicate if you had).

I would do a burn in with the Maxtor util because Maxtor dropped the
warranty from two years to one years a few months after releasing this drive
(you work it out). This following thread is long and includes the 4in1
suggestion you say works in another post (which will probably make the
problems less frequent/visible)... towards the end of the thread they
realise that if they get certain error codes from the Maxtor test then the
drive is failing and there is nothing to do but return the drive.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...9&[email protected]
Like one of the guys in that post I contacted Maxtor and they said that my
error was the drives fault not the drivers/bios/cable/powersupply.
Personally I think it is heat effecting something in the drive and once that
something is overheated the drive becomes unstable. Use a fan.

If you hear a clicking sound every now and again it is probably either the
heads suddenly parking and unparking and/or the drive finding an error and
recalibrating (I read these may be the causes of the sounds in other posts).
I do not get this on any of the drives I have now and only heard it from the
two that eventually failed.

Regards,
will
http://www.fileant.com

 

[Trent©]

If you hear a clicking sound every now and again it is probably either the
heads suddenly parking and unparking... <snip>

And this parking can be caused...and often IS caused...by a sudden
loss of power to the drive.

It is all too common that the workmanship on the power lead of the
power supply going to the hard drive is poor...and will intermittently
turn the hard drive on and off. I've run across this MANY times.

Changing power leads to the drive will often solve the problem. Many
folks blame this problem...and the ultimate solution of the
problem...to the power supply. They change the ps and, whala!...the
drive then works fine. Its not because of the power supply per
se...its because they've simultaneously replaced the power connector.

Bad IDE connectors...which are also common...can cause similar
problems.



Have a nice week...

Trent©

NUDITY...birth control for folks over 50!