Another port for firewire 400 on xp pro?

[Mark G.]

So I got another external drive that will run either USB, firewire, or
express sata. My current mobo does not support the lader. With my other
Western Digital external drive I used firewire and it proves to be faster.
Only problem is that my outputs from my mobo only gives me 1 firewire
connection. With that said, I have a Creative sound card that had a firewire
port and opted to use that. But now I am wondering if I can get much
improvement on my system running XP Pro if I get a PCI expansion card for
firewire 400/800? if so, will be fast enough to support spending the money?
For usage, most of this new drive (1.5tb) will be for backing up data (about
1tb worth). Any and all input is much appreciated!

 

[Lil' Dave]

So I got another external drive that will run either USB, firewire, or
express sata. My current mobo does not support the lader. With my other
Western Digital external drive I used firewire and it proves to be faster.
Only problem is that my outputs from my mobo only gives me 1 firewire
connection. With that said, I have a Creative sound card that had a
firewire port and opted to use that. But now I am wondering if I can get
much improvement on my system running XP Pro if I get a PCI expansion card
for firewire 400/800? if so, will be fast enough to support spending the
money? For usage, most of this new drive (1.5tb) will be for backing up
data (about 1tb worth). Any and all input is much appreciated!

If you're implying using the 400/800 card will allow a faster throughput vs.
what you're seeing now, not sure. That because you did not make us aware of
the firewire type in speed on the Creative card. Many older PCs can't
support 800 speed as their onboard bus clocks are too slow as well.

In usage, I've found firewire 400 just a tad faster than USB 2.0.

 

[Paul]

So I got another external drive that will run either USB, firewire, or
express sata. My current mobo does not support the lader. With my other
Western Digital external drive I used firewire and it proves to be faster.
Only problem is that my outputs from my mobo only gives me 1 firewire
connection. With that said, I have a Creative sound card that had a firewire
port and opted to use that. But now I am wondering if I can get much
improvement on my system running XP Pro if I get a PCI expansion card for
firewire 400/800? if so, will be fast enough to support spending the money?
For usage, most of this new drive (1.5tb) will be for backing up data (about
1tb worth). Any and all input is much appreciated!

You can cascade Firewire drives. As long as the external drive has
two Firewire connectors, that implies it can be cascaded.

Computer_firewire -----+ +----------+ +-----X
| | | |
Drive#1 Drive#2

In my testing, the first Firewire 400 drive was 30MB/sec, and the
second drive benchmarked at 20MB/sec. The performance can be affected
by the adapter inside the Drive#1 enclosure, as the packets on Firewire
are "store and forward" through that adapter.

You can use two interfaces, such as your Creative sound card. The
advantage of using two separate chips in the computer, to do the
Firewire, would be bandwidth independence. (Only important if
you're transferring from one Firewire drive, to the other one.)

Firewire 400 gives 30-35MB/sec, or a bit more than you can
get from USB. This has to do with the protocol, and USB uses
a polled approach from the host.

Firewire 400 and 800 are different, in the sense that there
aren't many enclosures with Firewire 800 interfaces on them.
They are more likely to be Firewire 400. Firewire 800 uses
a different connector.

A better choice, is the ESATA interface, as ESATA is more common
on enclosures. You could purchase an ESATA card to plug into
your computer, and connect that to the enclosure. Using ESATA,
the transfer rate will only be limited by the physical media
inside the hard drive. You could get a faster transfer than
even Firewire 800.

Cards for PCI, with ESATA connector, use stuff like SIL3112.
The reviews aren't always the best. Some of these cards don't
seem to be tested very well.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16815280005

With PCI Express x1 slots, you can use cards with a SIL3132, a better chip.
Older computers won't have a PCI Express slot.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158088

The backup software used, may have enough performance limitations,
to make the choice of interface type less important. I had a
backup package at one time, that transferred at 5MB/sec during
backups. If you use software like that, then even USB2 is
good enough. The above speed optimizations may only be useful,
if transferring folders directly from one drive to another.

All factors taken into consideration, I think your current
setup is a pretty good one. Considering the reviews for the
most likely ESATA cards you might use, the Firewire solution
might be less hassle.

Paul

 

[Anna]

So I got another external drive that will run either USB, firewire, or
express sata. My current mobo does not support the lader. With my other
Western Digital external drive I used firewire and it proves to be faster.
Only problem is that my outputs from my mobo only gives me 1 firewire
connection. With that said, I have a Creative sound card that had a
firewire port and opted to use that. But now I am wondering if I can get
much improvement on my system running XP Pro if I get a PCI expansion card
for firewire 400/800? if so, will be fast enough to support spending the
money? For usage, most of this new drive (1.5tb) will be for backing up
data (about 1tb worth). Any and all input is much appreciated!

Mark G.
First of all we're assuming you're working with a desktop PC; that your
motherboard supports SATA-II capability (even if it does not have an eSATA
port), and that your have an external enclosure that provides SATA-to-SATA
connectivity - I'm assuming that's what you mean when you refer to "another
external drive". And, of course, your new 1.5 Tb HDD is obviously a SATA
HDD. (I assume it's the Seagate model that was released a few months ago,
yes?)

Anyway, assuming all the above is correct...

As Paul has inferred, you would be best served in my opinion with a
SATA-to-SATA connection configuration between the external device and your
PC. However, as a general proposition, we are not fond of the PCI cards that
have SATA capability as mentioned by Paul. We've run into problems with
these cards so many times that we simply do not recommend them except when
no other recourse is available to the user. And as long as your motherboard
already contains SATA capability and presumably you'll have an available
vacant SATA connector on the motherboard I really see no need for that type
of PCI card.

A better setup in my opinion would be to purchase a SATA adapter containing
an eSATA port and affixing the adapter to the backplane of your desktop's
case - a simple operation. These adapters are available from many online
vendors and generally are in the $10 or so range. The SATA data cable
internally attached to the adapter is simply connected to one of your
motherboard's SATA connectors.

Hopefully, the external enclosure that you purchased included a SATA data
cable that contains eSATA connectors on both ends of the cable. Most of the
SATA enclosures marketed today include the cable.

The beauty of thus having SATA-to-SATA connectivity is that you get the best
of all worlds through this configuration. First of all the data transfer
rates will be significantly superior to either USB or Firewire. Secondly,
the system treats the external SATA-connected HDD as an *internal* HDD so
that the SATA drive is potentially bootable even though it's residing
outside the desktop's case. And thirdly, you have the add'l security since
you can easily disconnect the SATA external HDD from the system when it's
not in use.
Anna

 

[smlunatick]

So I got another external drive that will run either USB, firewire, or
express sata. My current mobo does not support the lader. With my other
Western Digital external drive I used firewire and it proves to be faster..
Only problem is that my outputs from my mobo only gives me 1 firewire
connection. With that said, I have a Creative sound card that had a firewire
port and opted to use that. But now I am wondering if I can get much
improvement on my system running XP Pro if I get a PCI expansion card for
firewire 400/800? if so, will be fast enough to support spending the money?
For usage, most of this new drive (1.5tb) will be for backing up data (about
1tb worth). Any and all input is much appreciated!

You do not need to add a Firewire port. Look at getting a Firewire
400 hub (like the USB Hubs.) This is a lot easier to install than a
Firewire 400 port.

 

[Patrick Keenan]

So I got another external drive that will run either USB, firewire, or
express sata. My current mobo does not support the lader. With my other
Western Digital external drive I used firewire and it proves to be faster.
Only problem is that my outputs from my mobo only gives me 1 firewire
connection. With that said, I have a Creative sound card that had a
firewire port and opted to use that. But now I am wondering if I can get
much improvement on my system running XP Pro if I get a PCI expansion card
for firewire 400/800? if so, will be fast enough to support spending the
money? For usage, most of this new drive (1.5tb) will be for backing up
data (about 1tb worth). Any and all input is much appreciated!

While eSATA may be a better option, to answer you question about another
FireWire Card - a lot of the result depends on the drivers. Be absolutely
sure that the drivers will work at full speed on your version of XP. And
it seems that the chip on the card does matter.

In the past, MS FW support has not been particularly good, and at one point
MS tried to solve the timing problems in their drivers by crippling the
speed. Expect to have to look for a hotfix if you encounter any problems.

I will also mention that I have found FW devices to be a questionable
proposition if they are ever intended to be moved. Officially, FW supports
hot-plugging. In my experience, this can cause permanent damage to the
ports on the devices.

I've had a number of external FW drive cases, *all* of which failed due to a
known problem with hot-plugging FW devices. You'll find a white paper on
this problem if you look, and you will find that some manufacturers, for
example M-Audio, urge users to *never* hot-plug firewire devices due to the
risk of permanent port damage, damage that will require replacement.

I've had to send for service (replacement) a $1000+ FW audio interface for
the same reason, and seen a failed FW port (on a MacBook) blow up the port
on a brand-new interface.

On my desk I do have a FW audio interface; it's been plugged in since the
system was assembled, and never moved, which prevents the problem.

If you are having to transfer large amounts of data, yes you want both the
highest speed and greatest sustained throughput, which will mean either
eSATA or FW.

-pk

 

[Mark G.]

WOW! great informational feedback. Thanks all, I really apprecite that.
Through the reading, I think I will go the adapter route with the e-sata. If
I should have further questions, I will be sure to drop in. Thanks again for
the thoughtful responses!

 

[Lil' Dave]

You can cascade Firewire drives. As long as the external drive has
two Firewire connectors, that implies it can be cascaded.

I don't know if the Creative Card uses a 4 wire or a 6 wire port. Firewire
interconnection of hard drives off one firewire port is only possible with
the 6 wire version. Devil's in the details...

 

[Paul]

I don't know if the Creative Card uses a 4 wire or a 6 wire port. Firewire
interconnection of hard drives off one firewire port is only possible with
the 6 wire version. Devil's in the details...

Six wires include VP and VG. Those are bus power, for devices that
need bus power. It is possible to run Firewire with just the two data
pairs, and still cascade devices. I'm not sure how realistic that
is, with available cabling - you're more likely to find 6 pin
cabling to hook stuff up. But there are 4->6 and 6->4 adapters
for breaking the bus power connection. And personally, I'd be a
lot happier, if four pins was all that was offered, as that
would make the interface safer to obscure fault conditions
(like the ones that blow Firewire ports).

(Pinouts near the bottom of the page. The 6 pin and 4 pin share the
same TPB- TPB+ TPA- TPA+ differential pairs. So logically, they are
no different.)

http://www.nettopic.nl/support/usb.php

There are a few aspects of Firewire, which are not documented on the
1394ta.org web site. As a result of discussions such as the one in
this slide set, I'm comfortable connecting a couple drives to a
PC with Firewire (power bricks provide isolation), but more
ambitious Firewire networks may start to involve the issues
discussed here. As noted at the beginning of the slide set,
the PC industry decided to remove galvanic isolation as a
requirement, to make Firewire cheaper to implement. If I
wanted to connect two PCs together for Firewire networking
(not available in Vista), I would plug the PCs into the same
power strip.

http://www.ti.com/sc/data/msp/1394/preview/isolate.pdf

There is at least one USB device, which could invoke a
similar situation. There are "laplink" USB to USB
devices, for connecting two computers together. And
there is likely a ground loop problem with devices
like that. The two PCs should be plugged into the
same power strip, while using one of those. Other than
that device, there is normally only one PC in a
USB tree.

Paul