8KB in bad sectors in hard drive 4 months old.


S

stan lee

Hello All,

I use Windows XP SP 3. System information is as follows: -

OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 3 Build 2600
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name HOME
System Manufacturer ECS
System Model M825VXX
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 1 AuthenticAMD ~1200 Mhz
BIOS Version/Date American Megatrends Inc. 07.00T, 4/2/2001
SMBIOS Version 2.3
Windows Directory C:\WINDOWS
System Directory C:\WINDOWS\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "5.1.2600.5512 (xpsp.080413-2111)"
User Name HOME\Smarty
Time Zone SA Western Standard Time
Total Physical Memory 1,536.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 929.95 MB
Total Virtual Memory 2.00 GB
Available Virtual Memory 1.96 GB
Page File Space 1.87 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys

I have noticed after running a scan disk check that there is 8KBin bad
sectors on my hard drive.

From my former 20gb hard drive which was about 4 years old I had my system
cloned into a new 160gb hard drive . This was done about 4 months ago. when
the old hard drive began failing. Then yesterday, June 21 2009 I ran the scan
mentioned above and got the results at caption.

I found and printed the event log. I am advised that I need to install a new
hard drive. My questions are :-

1. Can this be resolved without having to purchase a new Hard Drive?
2. Could it be that that the old hard drive contained those bad sectors and
by reason of cloning the report of the bad sectors appears on all subsequent
disk checks but I only saw it yesterday but that it would not be a problem
nessessating the installation of a new hard drive.

Thanking you in advance for your comments and/or suggestions.

stan Lee

N.B. I do not have any IT Training. I am a user who has picked up some
knowledge about a computer.
 
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R

Richard Urban

Bad sectors is a physical problem. They are not like a human virus. They can
not be transmitted from a bad drive to a good drive. If your new hard drive
shows bad sectors send it back for warranty replacement.

In addition, you clone a "known good" hard drive to another drive.
Information that was on bad sectors on the old drive will not be cloned to
the new drive. It can't be read. Somewhere down the road those missing bytes
will rise up to cause you problems and you won't know what the source of the
problem is. Example: It could be a part of the defragmenting program that
has gone missing and you can no longer defragment your drives. You would
never think it was due to cloning a defective drive.
 
J

John John - MVP

stan said:
Hello All,

I use Windows XP SP 3.
[snip...]

I have noticed after running a scan disk check that there is 8KBin bad
sectors on my hard drive.

From my former 20gb hard drive which was about 4 years old I had my system
cloned into a new 160gb hard drive . This was done about 4 months ago. when
the old hard drive began failing. Then yesterday, June 21 2009 I ran the scan
mentioned above and got the results at caption.

I found and printed the event log. I am advised that I need to install a new
hard drive. My questions are :-

1. Can this be resolved without having to purchase a new Hard Drive?
2. Could it be that that the old hard drive contained those bad sectors and
by reason of cloning the report of the bad sectors appears on all subsequent
disk checks but I only saw it yesterday but that it would not be a problem
nessessating the installation of a new hard drive.

If the old hard drive had bad sectors and if Windows had them marked off
then yes it is quite possible that the sectors would also be marked off
as bad on the new drive.

On NTFS volumes the list of bad sectors is held in the $BadClus metadata
file. When the Windows installation is cloned the $BadClus file is
cloned along with the the rest of the NTFS structure and the cloned
installation will, of course, think that the clusters identified in
$BadClus are bad. The Windows XP chkdsk version cannot reset this file,
if left as is the clusters will be marked as bad until the list of bad
clusters is removed from the $BadClus file or until the volume is
reformatted. Manually editing the $BadClus file is enough to put many
seasoned experts to the test, in earlier times when faced with this task
most would simply elect to copy the files off the disk and reformat it
then copy the files back, somehow using disk editors to edit files in
the boot sector is enough to cause second thoughts and give most anyone
a bit of hesitation. There are a few select utilities that can clear
the $BadClus file but there is so little documentation on this problem
that it's hard to find them, the best information that I have ever seen
on this is from a Katy Coe from Norway:

NTFS Bad Sectors Resolution: The $BadClus metafile
http://www.djkaty.com/ntfsbadsectors

Also:
http://www.fsys.nl/index.php
DFSee disk, partition and filesystem tool
(Use the NOBAD command)

If Chkdsk still finds bad sectors after you reset the $Badclus file have
the manufacturer replace the drive.

John

PS. Why the long list empty returns at the end of your post?
 
S

stan lee

Hello Randem,

The old drive was failing and I had the clone done 4 months ago. It seemed
reasonable to deduce that it was probable that the report may have been there
before the cloning and would still show up in later chkdsk scans and I just
noticed it accidentally when this last scan was done. I did some reading and
found that I could locate and print the report.

Stan Lee
 
S

stan lee

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your communication. I shall be looking forward to a warranty
replacement.

Seems that I have to do a clean re-installation of the operating system and
to re-install some of my programs as well.

Would the system back up utility return all of my files to their proper file
paths without loosing any of them. I have quite a few programs installed but
have lost or misplaced the cds. That's why I am a bit weary.

I shall be greatful for your comments and suggestions in this premise.

Stan Lee
















Thank you for your communication
 
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S

stan lee

Hello John,

Thankful for your interesting narrative. The contents are well noted. I will
follow up on the links you have given and get back to you.

Thanks again.

Stan Lee
--
Paralegal


John John - MVP said:
stan said:
Hello All,

I use Windows XP SP 3.
[snip...]

I have noticed after running a scan disk check that there is 8KBin bad
sectors on my hard drive.

From my former 20gb hard drive which was about 4 years old I had my system
cloned into a new 160gb hard drive . This was done about 4 months ago. when
the old hard drive began failing. Then yesterday, June 21 2009 I ran the scan
mentioned above and got the results at caption.

I found and printed the event log. I am advised that I need to install a new
hard drive. My questions are :-

1. Can this be resolved without having to purchase a new Hard Drive?
2. Could it be that that the old hard drive contained those bad sectors and
by reason of cloning the report of the bad sectors appears on all subsequent
disk checks but I only saw it yesterday but that it would not be a problem
nessessating the installation of a new hard drive.

If the old hard drive had bad sectors and if Windows had them marked off
then yes it is quite possible that the sectors would also be marked off
as bad on the new drive.

On NTFS volumes the list of bad sectors is held in the $BadClus metadata
file. When the Windows installation is cloned the $BadClus file is
cloned along with the the rest of the NTFS structure and the cloned
installation will, of course, think that the clusters identified in
$BadClus are bad. The Windows XP chkdsk version cannot reset this file,
if left as is the clusters will be marked as bad until the list of bad
clusters is removed from the $BadClus file or until the volume is
reformatted. Manually editing the $BadClus file is enough to put many
seasoned experts to the test, in earlier times when faced with this task
most would simply elect to copy the files off the disk and reformat it
then copy the files back, somehow using disk editors to edit files in
the boot sector is enough to cause second thoughts and give most anyone
a bit of hesitation. There are a few select utilities that can clear
the $BadClus file but there is so little documentation on this problem
that it's hard to find them, the best information that I have ever seen
on this is from a Katy Coe from Norway:

NTFS Bad Sectors Resolution: The $BadClus metafile
http://www.djkaty.com/ntfsbadsectors

Also:
http://www.fsys.nl/index.php
DFSee disk, partition and filesystem tool
(Use the NOBAD command)

If Chkdsk still finds bad sectors after you reset the $Badclus file have
the manufacturer replace the drive.

John

PS. Why the long list empty returns at the end of your post?
 
R

Richard Urban

A bad sector is a "physical" defect. There is no way in the world that a bad
sector will be cloned to a new drive and have the sector on the new drive
become "physically bad"! The scrambled information contained in the bad
sector "may" be transferred over to the new drive and be unreadable, but the
sector is not "bad". I doubt that it would occur anyway.

In NTFS the bad sector is mapped out and I do not think it would even be
cloned in the first place. The disk controller ignores it. It has already
been remapped to a good sector in the "store". All drives have X amount of
spare sectors - whatever X may be for that particular manufacturer. Whenever
the disk controller sees something trying to read/write to where the "bad"
sector was located the read/write head is directed to the replacement
sector - which is good.

Of course, I may be wrong. (-:

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience


John John - MVP said:
stan said:
Hello All,

I use Windows XP SP 3.
[snip...]

I have noticed after running a scan disk check that there is 8KBin bad
sectors on my hard drive.

From my former 20gb hard drive which was about 4 years old I had my
system cloned into a new 160gb hard drive . This was done about 4 months
ago. when the old hard drive began failing. Then yesterday, June 21 2009
I ran the scan mentioned above and got the results at caption.

I found and printed the event log. I am advised that I need to install a
new hard drive. My questions are :-

1. Can this be resolved without having to purchase a new Hard Drive?
2. Could it be that that the old hard drive contained those bad sectors
and by reason of cloning the report of the bad sectors appears on all
subsequent disk checks but I only saw it yesterday but that it would not
be a problem nessessating the installation of a new hard drive.

If the old hard drive had bad sectors and if Windows had them marked off
then yes it is quite possible that the sectors would also be marked off as
bad on the new drive.

On NTFS volumes the list of bad sectors is held in the $BadClus metadata
file. When the Windows installation is cloned the $BadClus file is
cloned along with the the rest of the NTFS structure and the cloned
installation will, of course, think that the clusters identified in
$BadClus are bad. The Windows XP chkdsk version cannot reset this file,
if left as is the clusters will be marked as bad until the list of bad
clusters is removed from the $BadClus file or until the volume is
reformatted. Manually editing the $BadClus file is enough to put many
seasoned experts to the test, in earlier times when faced with this task
most would simply elect to copy the files off the disk and reformat it
then copy the files back, somehow using disk editors to edit files in
the boot sector is enough to cause second thoughts and give most anyone
a bit of hesitation. There are a few select utilities that can clear
the $BadClus file but there is so little documentation on this problem
that it's hard to find them, the best information that I have ever seen
on this is from a Katy Coe from Norway:

NTFS Bad Sectors Resolution: The $BadClus metafile
http://www.djkaty.com/ntfsbadsectors

Also:
http://www.fsys.nl/index.php
DFSee disk, partition and filesystem tool
(Use the NOBAD command)

If Chkdsk still finds bad sectors after you reset the $Badclus file have
the manufacturer replace the drive.

John

PS. Why the long list empty returns at the end of your post?
 
G

Gerry

Stan

8 kb = 2 clusters which is of no consequence. You only have problem if
you get more. You can use a drive with what you are seeing forever and a
day and get no further proroblems.

Try HD Tune. It only gives information and does not fix any
problems.

Download and run it and see what it turns up. You want HD Tune
(freeware) version 2.55 not HD Tune Pro (not Freeware) version 3.00.
http://www.hdtune.com/

Select the Info tabs and place the cursor on the drive under Drive
letter and then double click the two page icon ( copy to Clipboard )
and copy into a further message.

Select the Health tab and then double click the two page icon ( copy to
Clipboard ) and copy into a further message. Make sure you do a full
surface scan with HD Tune.


--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
J

John John - MVP

No one said that the bad sectors would be cloned, they won't be cloned,
the cloning utility will either stop when it encounters them or it will
skip them is so instructed. The problem is that chkdsk keeps a record
of bad sectors in the $Badclus files and this file *will* be cloned.
Perhaps some of the cloning utilities have an option to not clone this
file but many if not most do not. The Windows XP version of Chkdsk
cannot reevaluate this file and chkdsk will keep on reporting the
clusters as bad even if they aren't. To overcome this problem you have
to reset the bad cluster list or reformat the volume.

John
 
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T

Twayne

Hello All,

I use Windows XP SP 3. System information is as follows: -

OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 3 Build 2600
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name HOME
System Manufacturer ECS
System Model M825VXX
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 1 AuthenticAMD ~1200 Mhz
BIOS Version/Date American Megatrends Inc. 07.00T, 4/2/2001
SMBIOS Version 2.3
Windows Directory C:\WINDOWS
System Directory C:\WINDOWS\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "5.1.2600.5512
(xpsp.080413-2111)"
User Name HOME\Smarty
Time Zone SA Western Standard Time
Total Physical Memory 1,536.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 929.95 MB
Total Virtual Memory 2.00 GB
Available Virtual Memory 1.96 GB
Page File Space 1.87 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys

I have noticed after running a scan disk check that there is 8KBin bad
sectors on my hard drive.

From my former 20gb hard drive which was about 4 years old I had my
system cloned into a new 160gb hard drive . This was done about 4
months ago. when the old hard drive began failing. Then yesterday,
June 21 2009 I ran the scan mentioned above and got the results at
caption.

I found and printed the event log. I am advised that I need to
install a new hard drive. My questions are :-

1. Can this be resolved without having to purchase a new Hard Drive?
2. Could it be that that the old hard drive contained those bad
sectors and by reason of cloning the report of the bad sectors
appears on all subsequent disk checks but I only saw it yesterday but
that it would not be a problem nessessating the installation of a new
hard drive.

Thanking you in advance for your comments and/or suggestions.

stan Lee

N.B. I do not have any IT Training. I am a user who has picked up
some knowledge about a computer.

8k in bad sectors, IF the number remains constant, is acceptable and not
unheard of by any means.
The trick is to watch it to be certain the number isn't/doesn't get
any larger. IF the number does change, then the disc surface is indeed
deteriorating. Check it say weekly for a few weeks and see if it
changes at all. If not, forget about it.
I'm running a 80 Gig WD drive with 4k in bad sectors; I don't know if
it was there on delivery, but it hasn't changed in the over 5 years I've
used the drive. As old as it is, it still only has 4k in bad sectors
and has never changed. It's quiet and runs smoothly so until it finally
gasps I'll keep running it til it dies to see how far it goes<g>.
You can try, but 4k in bad sectors isn't likely to be replaced for
you, especially if it left the factory that way (their records will show
it). All they can do is say no, so ... . If the number changes though,
then you may well have a sick drive; so keep track of it for awhile to
make sure.

HTH,

Twayne`
 
R

Richard Urban

Ok Now I understand what you were trying to say.

So there you have it folks. One more reason to upgrade to a later operating
system.
 
J

John John - MVP

Yes, the Vista or later Chkdsk version has a switch that can force a
reevaluation of the $Badclus file.

John
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Seems that I have to do a clean re-installation of the operating system and
to re-install some of my programs as well.

Would the system back up utility return all of my files to their proper file
paths without loosing any of them. I have quite a few programs installed but
have lost or misplaced the cds. That's why I am a bit weary.


Yes, the backup utility should properly restore all the files without
"loosing" [sic} any of them. But losing any of the backed-up program
files doesn't matter. If you do a clean reinstallation of Windows you
will *have to* reinstall all (or almost all) of your programs. That's
because all programs, except for a very occasional small simple one,
have entries in the Windows registry, and files or references
elsewhere within \Windows, and won't work without these.

So if you've misplaced program CDs, you'll need to find them, and if
you've lost them, you'll need to buy them again.
 
G

Gerry

Richard

That's not a very weighty factor when compared to the reasons for not
upgrading to Vista.

--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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T

Terry R.

The date and time was Monday, June 22, 2009 8:56:01 PM, and on a whim,
stan lee pounded out on the keyboard:
Hello Randem,

The old drive was failing and I had the clone done 4 months ago. It seemed
reasonable to deduce that it was probable that the report may have been there
before the cloning and would still show up in later chkdsk scans and I just
noticed it accidentally when this last scan was done. I did some reading and
found that I could locate and print the report.

Stan Lee

Hi Stan,

Scanning over the replies I didn't notice any mention the drive
controller. As mentioned, modern hard drives have "spare sectors".
When a bad sector is detected the controller remaps it. Most of the
time the OS doesn't interact. In most cases, only when the spares have
been all used up will the OS start detecting errors.

One thing about mechanical devices. They fail. Sometimes not within
its useful life. Other times it could be 4 months (or less) as you
experienced. I had 3 drives (one of each in this workstation) fail
within a year (IBM Deskstar class action). Had not I had the other
drives, everything would have been lost.

That's why having good (AND frequent) backups is your best insurance
against losing data.


Terry R.
 
R

Richard Urban

You are addressing a person who has installed Vista over 200 times on
peoples computers. I also have 3 personal computers with Vista on it.

You comment to me holds no water what-so-ever.
 
G

Gerry

Richard

OK so you know the reason why I prefer Windows XP? You also know why
large numbers of business users have given Vista a miss. So you also
choose to disregard the reasons why Microsoft have brought forward the
launch of Windows 7! To generate new business they are responding to
widespread criticism and have changed features in Vista, which have
proved to be unpopular. Do you think they are launching Windows 7 early
for philanthropic reasons?

Some users like Vista. Many others do not.

--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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T

Terry R.

The date and time was Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:09:07 AM, and on a whim,
Gerry pounded out on the keyboard:
Richard

OK so you know the reason why I prefer Windows XP? You also know why
large numbers of business users have given Vista a miss. So you also
choose to disregard the reasons why Microsoft have brought forward the
launch of Windows 7! To generate new business they are responding to
widespread criticism and have changed features in Vista, which have
proved to be unpopular. Do you think they are launching Windows 7 early
for philanthropic reasons?

Some users like Vista. Many others do not.

I would say "most".

Most average users who purchase a computer with Vista will not know they
have/had a choice, so they accept it.

Unless a users hardware is almost new, Vista (nor Win7) will allow older
computers to do intensive audio/video work as can be done using XP.
This workstation (AMD 3000+ 2 gig RAM, 3 hard drives) does a lot of
video and works fine in XP, in fact it outperforms any dual or quad core
boxes I have touched, and yet Win7 won't allow the software to function
correctly due to the added overhead. I haven't completely stripped Win7
of everything yet in testing, but so far it won't work.

Not one network I admin has one Vista workstation. That is more the
norm than Richard's "200 times". Only one individual client purchased a
new computer with Vista, and the only reason they kept it was because of
my recommendation to learn the OS rather than pay the costs involved
to install XP. Any others wanted XP installed instead of Vista or had
it installed when purchased.

As I felt when Vista came out, MS created a very good OS in XP (W2K
also). People no longer have the need for a "better OS". They just
want to get their work done. Vista and Win7 just alienate older
hardware and won't allow software to run as efficiently. So there isn't
a real need to change for what is offered by the updated OS's.


Terry R.
 

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