10 second file becomes 9 seconds when saved

[siestajoye]

I'm new to MM, but have used Adobe After Effects for a few years, so I
thought that it would be pretty simple to do some basic things with MM.

Using MM Version 2.1.4026.0 on XP Pro. I have some uncompressed AVIs (video
only) that I wanted to convert to WMV, open in MM, overlay titles and export.
These are 10 seconds, 30 Frames Per Second looping AVIs, so getting the right
length in and out is important for the loop. I converted from AVI using
River Past Video Cleaner, Quality Based settings - quality set at 90.

When I opened the 10 second WMV files in MM, overlay titles and save them as
WMV, they export at 9 seconds long. Tried lots of files...
So I tried just saving without titles and got the same result. Now in the MM
preview window before saving, the duration of the WMV I brought in shows 9:93
(not like ANY time code I've ever seen before), but not a second short
either.

I opened the very same original WMV file in After Effects and it is - as
expected 10 sec duration. Open the new saved WMV version (from MM) and it is
9 seconds.

Trying to isolate the problem, I took the original AVIs into MM and saved
them as AVI to see if the length stayed the same. The AVI saved from MM
became 9:28. While the original is 10 seconds in duration. Still not correct,
but .02 sec. off is not as bad as an entire second missing in the WMVs.

I used G-spot to look at how the WMVs were being made. It tells me that the
codec is WMV3 - WMP v9 (VC-1 Simple/Main) and the file type is ASF (WMA/WMV);
Mime Type video/x-ms-asf.

I am just baffled. I was testing this method as an easy way to put titles
over a file in WMV format. After hours of researching, testing, reading
everything I can find about the process - I'm not so sure that it is simple.
I've been to the MVP sites, tried to educate myself on WMV and MM, but I'm
getting nowhere!

Please tell me that I am missing something obvious. I just can't believe
that opening and saving a file would change its length. I would really
appreciate some input, because this is one newbie that may never get beyond
the beginner stage if I can't solve this problem.

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[John Inzer]

I'm new to MM, but have used Adobe After Effects for a few years, so I
thought that it would be pretty simple to do some basic things with
MM.

Using MM Version 2.1.4026.0 on XP Pro. I have some uncompressed AVIs
(video only) that I wanted to convert to WMV, open in MM, overlay
titles and export. These are 10 seconds, 30 Frames Per Second looping
AVIs, so getting the right length in and out is important for the
loop. I converted from AVI using River Past Video Cleaner, Quality
Based settings - quality set at 90.

When I opened the 10 second WMV files in MM, overlay titles and save
them as WMV, they export at 9 seconds long. Tried lots of files...
So I tried just saving without titles and got the same result. Now in
the MM preview window before saving, the duration of the WMV I
brought in shows 9:93 (not like ANY time code I've ever seen before),
but not a second short either.

I opened the very same original WMV file in After Effects and it is -
as expected 10 sec duration. Open the new saved WMV version (from MM)
and it is 9 seconds.

Trying to isolate the problem, I took the original AVIs into MM and
saved them as AVI to see if the length stayed the same. The AVI saved
from MM became 9:28. While the original is 10 seconds in duration.
Still not correct, but .02 sec. off is not as bad as an entire second
missing in the WMVs.

I used G-spot to look at how the WMVs were being made. It tells me
that the codec is WMV3 - WMP v9 (VC-1 Simple/Main) and the file type
is ASF (WMA/WMV); Mime Type video/x-ms-asf.

I am just baffled. I was testing this method as an easy way to put
titles over a file in WMV format. After hours of researching,
testing, reading everything I can find about the process - I'm not so
sure that it is simple. I've been to the MVP sites, tried to educate
myself on WMV and MM, but I'm getting nowhere!

Please tell me that I am missing something obvious. I just can't
believe that opening and saving a file would change its length. I
would really appreciate some input, because this is one newbie that
may never get beyond the beginner stage if I can't solve this problem.

Thank you very much for your help.

===============================
I don't have a definitive answer for you but I
suspect the issue is related to the fact that
Movie Maker is known to drop frames...

Maybe the following articles will offer some
ideas for you to research...

Movie Maker - Problem Solving - Video Issues
http://www.papajohn.org/MM2-Issues-Video.html

What Frames Do You See?
http://www.papajohn.org/Newsletters/055-Frames.html

And...FWIW...the following info from
PapaJohn may be of interest:

Movie Maker 2 shows you every-other-frame
when doing project editing. MM1 and Movie
Maker in Vista show you each frame.

It's usually not a problem when skipping over
the in-between frames, but sometimes you
notice a flickering frame in a clip that is a 'stray',
and you can't see or cut it out.

If you apply the Slow - Down - Half video effect
to a clip in the timeline, you are then seeing
each frame rather than every other one. You
can see the problem frame and split it out.
Then remove the effect from the clip to return
it to normal.

--

John Inzer
Digital Media MVP

Notice
This is not tech support
I am a volunteer

Solutions that work for
me may not work for you

Proceed at your own risk

 

[siestajoye]

John,
Thank you very much for the references...I have spent a lot of time on the
papajohn site and still find no way to deal with this consistently. Here's
the dillemma...I want to make WMVs that my staff can import into MM, overlay
with a title and use in PowerPoint. I want the WMVs to loop - since that
opening title may be up for a while. If MM cuts (up to) 1 sec. off of WMVs
when I import and save - and .02 -.03 off of AVIs, exported as AVIs - I have
to wonder, is this tool worth using for this process? I don't want to have
to teach users to use After Effects, Premier, etc. if I can help it - just to
make PowerPoint presentations. However, I would think that if Microsoft
built a product for video it would at the very least not lose frames in this
manner. I am hoping that there is actual documentation for use that will let
me get a consistent result. The papajohn articles give me the feeling that
MM is just a bundle of problems. I was hoping that this result was due to my
inexperience with MM, not due to product limitations.
You said MM is known to drop frames. Do you think that MM is capable of
doing what I want, or will I have to move to a "real" video editing product?
(I say that because any product that cannot in and out the same length video
doesn't seem like a "real" video editing solution.) Although I do find that
Windows Media Player has similar issues that a "real" media player shouldn't
- like stuttering at a loop and at the beginning of a clip.
I would appreciate your thoughts on using MM at all for this project.

 

[John Inzer]

John,
Thank you very much for the references...I have spent a lot of time
on the papajohn site and still find no way to deal with this
consistently. Here's the dillemma...I want to make WMVs that my
staff can import into MM, overlay with a title and use in PowerPoint.
I want the WMVs to loop - since that opening title may be up for a
while. If MM cuts (up to) 1 sec. off of WMVs when I import and save
- and .02 -.03 off of AVIs, exported as AVIs - I have to wonder, is
this tool worth using for this process? I don't want to have to
teach users to use After Effects, Premier, etc. if I can help it -
just to make PowerPoint presentations. However, I would think that
if Microsoft built a product for video it would at the very least not
lose frames in this manner. I am hoping that there is actual
documentation for use that will let me get a consistent result. The
papajohn articles give me the feeling that MM is just a bundle of
problems. I was hoping that this result was due to my inexperience
with MM, not due to product limitations.
You said MM is known to drop frames. Do you think that MM is capable
of doing what I want, or will I have to move to a "real" video
editing product? (I say that because any product that cannot in and
out the same length video doesn't seem like a "real" video editing
solution.) Although I do find that Windows Media Player has similar
issues that a "real" media player shouldn't - like stuttering at a
loop and at the beginning of a clip.
I would appreciate your thoughts on using MM at all for this project.

=================================
As I initially stated..." I don't have a definitive
answer for you." However...it makes sense to
me that if frames are dropped...the duration
of the clip would have to be shortened. That
is what I think is at the heart of your issue and
based on that...I'm thinking Movie Maker may
not be the best app for the task you are trying
to accomplish.

--

John Inzer
Digital Media MVP

Notice
This is not tech support
I am a volunteer

Solutions that work for
me may not work for you

Proceed at your own risk

 

[Graham Hughes]

I don't think you are using uncompressed avi's are you?
These would be in the range of 65gb for every hour of video.

Movie maker, for some reason unknown to most people uses 100th's instead of
frame numbers, so one second would look like 1.00, but the last counter
before 2 seconds would look like 1.99.

I don't think it is dropping frames per say, but is possibly having troube
with the file.


Can you give us the details from Gspot on the original file.
Are these from after effects? If not where did they come from?

Is it 30 frames per second or 29.97 std NTSC?

You could email me a copy of the wmv file and I'll look at it.