WHY

[Harlan Grove]

Access, SQL Server, OLAP, MDX and VB.Net.. oh gosh.. where do we start? ....
it is a revolution that happened 4 years ago.. and somehow beancounters were
left out.

A very quiet revolution indeed.

I'm unimpressed in part because I work for a global financial services
company that uses OLAP via Essbase via browser interface. It may suck
compared to what you're espousing, but Essbase was out there *before*
Microsoft, as was Applix with TM/1. Those are the only two OLAP products
I've used. There may be others. The point is that companies bought these
other products and used them to develop applications of modest to
considerable value for their companies. There are *working* systems using
these products, so most sensible IT managers aren't going to switch to
MSFT's offerings any time soon. That's good business even if if did make for
boring development.

It is all the same product.

Really? As in buy one (Access, say), get them all? More foolishness!

OLAP is magical.. if you haven't used it (similiar to cognos, etc) then
you are really short-changing yourself.

I used (as a developer of sorts) the 'multidimensional database' in
VP-Planner back in the 1980s and TM/1 in the early 1990s. I've had access to
browser-based Essbase applications. I know how the first two worked, and I
can make reasonable guesses about the third. They have their uses, but they
don't do much for me in what I do.

MDX is going to change the spreadsheet community.. and I hope for the best
of all of you-- that you spend some time and energy in broadening your
horizons..

No it won't, at least not soon.

People who misuse spreadsheets to produce reports involving few calculations
(my definition) but lots of in-house data available via ODBC or other
electronic sources will likely continue to do so as long as (1) it isn't too
slow (up to them and their bosses to measure that) using spreadsheets to do
so and (2) spreadsheets are the only GUI development tool they have (writing
& running .VBS or .WSH files doesn't count as GUI development to me, though
most people running recent Windows versions have this option too).

Then there's all the other uses of spreadsheets which you can't comprehend.
Resorting to metaphors, you're arguing that pickups with back seats are so
damn useful and capable they'll replace all other types of private passenger
car. Not in this lifetime or the next.

MDX has what-- 80% of the functionality of Excel ... times the power of SQL
Server?

....

The 80% may be correct, but the key question is which 20% would it be
missing? If it's a critical 20%, it won't do squat to replace Excel. Also,
if it costs more per seat than Excel, it won't do squat. Finally, if it
requires a network connection to do anything useful, Excel will continue to
thrive.

Microsoft needs to start offering a variety of tools-- like soemthing that
would help developers to translate between VB6 and VBscript.

....

If you knew C, you could roll your own compiler from one to the other. In
the same way that the GNU FORTRAN compiler compiles FORTRAN code to C rather
than to object code. You just gotta know how to use a lexical analyzer and a
write a parser grammar.

 

[Harlan Grove]

I'll write webpages in whatever language I want.

I write them in VB (ASP with VBscript) because it is the easiest to
troubleshoot & debug.

And requires IE or similarly insecure browser to run.

Here's a clue for you - ASP will die unless Microsoft develops some form of
execution control facility like Lotus Notes has had since version 4.0 back
in the mid 1990s. And defaulting to not loading much less not running them.

any browser that doesn't support vbscript on the clientside doesn't fit on
my desktop.

So you're a regular virus conduit? Thanks!

Are you the slightest bit aware about the security risks of such
configuration?

the real question is why do firefox and opera not support client-side
vbscript?

BECAUSE THEY'RE *I*N*T*E*N*T*I*O*N*A*L*L*Y* DESIGNED TO BE MORE
*S*E*C*U*R*E* THAN IE. Are you really this ignorant?!

it isnt' _THAT_ complicated of a language

DUH! And what's the language of choice for malware? Is this security concept
really that complicated for you?

 

[Harlan Grove]

it just sux that you all email large spreadsheets around; and nobody can
really keep track of these spreadsheets since theyt live in 20 different
users' 'my documents' folders.

I e-mail PDF files of 'printouts' of spreadsheets if I want the recipients
to have read-only access. I do agree that's too damn many files e-mailed
rather than stored in central sites like Notes, Exchange or other groupware
servers.

it's just comical.. that you guys-- you educated poeple-- think that it is
acceptable to use this POS obsolete langague called Excel.

You laugh because you can't understand what we do. We don't do what you do,
and we wouldn't even if you and we were using exactly the same software.

 

[Harlan Grove]

Win2k baby

....

All running at the same time? To repeat, WHY?

 

[Harlan Grove]

I disagree that 'most websites run *nix'

I believe that apache does have quite a large marketshare (that doesnt mean
*nix); but most Fortune 500 companies rely on IIS, not apache.

....

You need to check netcraft. How about the Fortune top 20?

Walmart - Solaris and unknown
Exxon - Linux
GM - Solaris
Ford - Windows
GE - Solaris
ChevronTexaco - Windows
ConocoPhillips - Windows
Citibank - Solaris
IBM - AIX
AIG - Solaris
HP - HP-UX
Verizon - Linux
Home Depot - HP-UX
Berkshire Hathaway - Windows, BSD and other
Altria - Windows
McKesson - Linux and Solaris
Cardinal Health - Windows
State Farm - Windows
Kroger - BSD, Windows, AIX, Solaris and other
Fannie Mae - Solaris

8 use Windows in whole or in part
14 use *x in whole or in part


And a few others at my whim.

Daimler Chrystler - Linux
ADM - Windows
Oracle - Linux, Solaris and other
PeopleSoft - Solaris
Boeing - Solaris
Pfizer - Solaris
Procter & Gamble - Solaris
Siemens - Linux and Solaris
Generali - Windows
Amazon - Linux

2 use Windows
8 use *x

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You have neither the wit
nor the inclination to test your absurd beliefs against the cold, hard
truth. You develop under Wndows, and it seems you think you the World & dog
does too. GET A CLUE!!!

They've got $70 billion in cash; and they can't afford to make stable and
secure programs.

....

Why should they when it wouldn't materially boost their profits?

Why should they bother with security when there are developer bozos like you
who believe client side scripting is a good thing?

 

[Harlan Grove]

in OLAP it would be this:

select {time.months} on columns,
{rate.children} on rows
from CUBENAME.

?

This may populate some object with information from the cube, but how does
the cube calculate those figures?

it would be easy to do in MDX; which means that you could do this in ONE
PLACE via MDX: or you could have this exact same logic in 100 different
places in an Excel spreadsheet.

Details? Just because you say it's easy doesn't mean it is.

What works the best when conditions change?

....

For amortization tables? Well written .XLT files. The conditions that would
change would be 1. loan term, 2. frequency of payments within loan term
(monthly, biweekly, other), 3. interest rate, 4. original loan amount.
That's it. The underlying math is invariant, so the formulas *NEVER* change.
Only these 4 inputs, and these would be user entries that change at the
user's whim. You'd need a UI to collect them no what you use to do the
processing.

it doesn't make sense to copy your business logic into 100 different

places.

Depends. If you mean rewriting formulas, agreed. If you mean umpteen
workbooks generated from the same template when formulas are invariant (and
protected), no big deal.

And your argument on templates was flawed.. if you dynamically build
something off of the source of the data; it's going to be more efficient to
change your logic.

First, you still don't understand my approach. Separate files to store
formulas and macros (protected and stored/accessed centrally) and user
entries (minimal, generated by macros in the centrally stored files).

Second, there are LOTS of applications in which the formulas NEVER change.
Like amortization tables. Like cash value accumulation tables for whole life
insurance policies.

I DONT WANT TO EVER CHANGE ANOTHER SPREADSHEET.

I DONT WANT TO STRESS OUT WHEN MY NUMBERS ARE WRONG.

I DONT WANT TO STRESS OUT WHEN YOUR NUMBERS ARE WRONG.

Bugs happen, even in VB code, even in SQL queries.

Aren't you just sick and tired of changing the same spreadsheet week in and
week out?

If I did, I would be. Anything repetitive I automate. I don't care at all
whether my computer does the same thing over and over again, that's kinda
why I have it.

Don't you get tired when you document gets corrupted; or when it is too big
to email?

Databases never get corrupted? What planet do you live on?

As for e-mail, I send PDF files mostly.

Don't you get pissed off when someone makes decisions 'off of the wrong
version of your spreadsheet'

They haven't yet when I've been in charge of distributing changes. When
other people screw up the sysadmin stuff, I don't lose much sleep.

The answer is to get rid of beancounters and spreadsheets and replace it
with databases and teams that decide business logic.

Oh God, not teams! I have yet to meet a developer able to understand risk
based capital, even the dumbed-down version. And most teams are barely
capable of agreeing on how to spell 'the'.

You go right on believing all this. I'm sure it'll all happen just like you
believe it will right after all offices really become paperless.

you can't afford to have numbers that you can't audit.

Too true. Who says you can't audit spreadsheets?

And I don't trust an auditor in the world that relies on Excel.

Well, given business news in the last few years, I'm not sure I'd trust
auditors no matter what software they were using. Assuming there are some
who do an honest job, comparing, say, a dozen figures from one set of
reports against, say, ten figures from another set that both should add up
to the same totals, would I want an auditor screwing around using an RDBMS
for something that could be done in Excel by entering 12 numbers in one
column, 10 in another, then entering two formulas? No way!

Really bad example, so typical of your level of imagination. We've come to
expect this from you.

BECAUSE THEY DUPLICATE LOGIC IN 100 DIFFERENT PLACES; IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO
HAVE PEACE OF MIND. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO _PROVE_ THAT YOUR NUMBERS WORK.

No, it's only arduous.

 

[Guest]

With MEMBER measures.TotalHours AS 'Sum(measures.[net hours]'
select measures.members on columns,
time.month.members on rows
from CUBENAME

(sorry i forgot time.month.members on the previous example)

you can do anything that excel can do; only faster; and in a single line of
code.

you dont' need to copy and paste data

this datasource is fast enough for millions of records and allows you to
slice and dice

 

[Guest]

it would be GROSSLY inefficient to do sorting on 100 different machines

and presto-chango some time you sort

AND THEN YOU HIT THE 64k LIMIT AND YOUR SCREWED

you can sort in a query; on the server side.. and it is a LOT more powerful
than sorting in excel

if you like sorting so much; get into databases

if all the numbers come FROM the database; why are you worried about needing
to push them back into the db in order to sort them?

if you leave them in the db and sort them there; its a lot more manageable

 

[Guest]

uh i do a lot of search-engine type activities.

im building a google-killer

 

[Guest]

it isn't licensed; it is a CA basic IDE and compiler.

has nothing to do with Microsoft.

I wrote BASIC on my commodore 20 years ago.. i didnt' need a license from
Microsoft for that, did I?

 

[Guest]

where did you get those numbers from-- A DATABASE HUH?

http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Reports/current/graphs.html

This report isn't very current.. all I know is that Microsoft came out with
Windows 2003 Web Edition with a base price of about $399 like 18 months ago

and it is easily the fastest webserver i've ever seen

it runs circles around apache; it runs circles around Win2k

Solaris-- one of the largest Operating Systems from that survey--- Sun only
has a what $5bn market share?
Do you really expect them to be around forever?? LoL

AMD could buy them for Christ Sakes!!!!

Antitrust law is the only thing that is keeping them alive. They will make
a big comeback-- I am sure.

But IIS compression in Win2k03 is AWESOME

http://www.port80software.com/surveys/top1000compression/

22% decrease in html size?

That isn't something to sneeze at.. It'll take over; and it already has

 

[Guest]

jackass

go and bark up some other tree.

VB is the most popular language in the world

The fact that Firefox and opera don't allow client-side vbScript has nothing
to do with security.. go and play with your mac in red china you commie

just because VB is popular; and it has some vulnerabilities-- that doesn't
mean that it's a bad choice for client-side scripting.

ActiveX downloads in IE might be a bad idea.

But vbScript is innocent and very powerful

Java BS is for wimps

 

[Guest]

Microsoft is losing the database war because of this marketing problem with
Access.

the marketing problem with Access is due to beancounters like you who think
that it is 'too difficult' to have to save the file before you start typing
LoL

Microsoft just needs to get their head straight.

The continued marketing problem with Access is smearing SQL Server

and SQL Server can and DOES compete extraordinarily well against those
LEGACY (obsolete) databases.

microsoft's product is BETTER dont get me wrong or put words in my mouth

Microsoft is just failing to make marketshare gains like they need to.

and it is a marketing problem, not a software problem

they need to either embrace Access or drop it.

when I mean embrace Access they need to do this:

1) convince beancoutners like you to get on with your life and start using a
real application
2) fix bugs in Access
3) tell us where Acccess is going to be 10 years from now
4) make more people have access; include it with a standard edition of
office

 

[Guest]

Access comes with a free SQL Server engine called MSDE

SQL Server comes with a free OLAP engine

a LOT better deal than what everyone else is offering

re: but lots of in-house data available via ODBC

If you're doing ODBC, you're an IDIOT for not using Access.

 

[Guest]

Adobe Acrobat is the biggest BLOATWARE i've ever seen.

do you really need to check for updates every fuc#ing day adobe?

do you really need to be a TSR (terminate and stay resident)

that ins't very RESPONSIBLE ADOBE GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER

Adobe acrobat sux cok worse that your mother

Access has included this thing called the snapshot viewer that comes with
Office; and it allows you to do this without BUYING ANOTHER PRODUCT

I'll bet you download the Flash viewer too huh?

Commie go and play with your mac

 

[Guest]

linear regression?

it allows you to model 128 different dimensions

it can do whatever you want

if you don't believe me when i say that I have a billion records with a
sub-second response time-- you should have told me this a lot earlier.

IT HAPPENS USING OLAP. IT HAPPENS A THOUSAND TIMES PER DAY ACROSS THE US.

OLAP TOOK AWAY ALL OF THE PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS OUT OF DATABASES

with OLAP recordcout is irrelevent.

cardinality is more important.

 

[Guest]

like i said, PDF and EXCEL are both DEAD-ENDS and that is why you don't
email documents around-- you share database objects or reports

I refuse to use PDF. I refuse to use it 100%. It slows down my machine.

Anyone that uses it like that is wasting my time.

keep it in the database kid

 

[Ken Wright]

Harlan asked

Telekenesis?

You replied

I refuse to use PDF. I refuse to use it 100%. It slows down my machine.

That means you are obviously someone that has no experience of doing business in
the real world with a multitude of suppliers/intermediaries/customers.
Amazingly enough there are times when YOU do not get to call all the shots,
epsecially when YOU are not the customer, but YOU are there to satisfy the
customer. Try working with the MoD or the DoD or any of the multitude of
companies that supply them, and then try saying 'I'm not playing if you don't
play with my toys'. As a systems integrator trying to pull this lot together to
create a respectable looking proposal on time you would be out of business in a
week with an attitude like that.

You've used the phrase 'GROW UP' a number of times, but that is something else
that you obviously know nothing about and haven't yet experienced. The only
'kid' around here is yourself and your language and inexperience/inability
within the real world come across with every single post you make, epsecially
the latter ones. Someone that can't argue a logical battle and so resorts to
insults and childish name calling is simply petty beyond belief, and something
most people learn to leave in the playground. Time to get a life son and come
back when you are big enough to play with the grown ups

 

[Bill Sharpe]

uh i do a lot of search-engine type activities.

im building a google-killer

 

[Harlan Grove]

. . . Someone that can't argue a logical battle and so resorts to
insults and childish name calling is simply petty beyond belief, . . .

....

Quite so. First give a devastating logical counterargument, then sling the
insults. That's the way!