Vista On More Then One Computer

P

Plato

=?Utf-8?B?SmM=?= said:
ok so i bought windows Vista ultimate and put it on my desktop so i liked it
so i put it on my laptop thinking i could use the same product key on my
laptop and vista is 4xx.xx bucks then after a little it ask to active it then
it say its being used so i call them up and they want me to pay for a new one
you cant use vista on more then one computer if u already bought it?

This day and age with people having multiple computers at home I dont
blame software authors for demanding that you pay for the app you want
to use on each computer separately. Many wealthy families, at least here
in the USA have 3 or more pcs at home, then add laptops to that.

While nobody likes/wants to pay for the same OS again for a different
computer, again, like a car, you have to pay for brakes for each car, or
an alternator or belt for that matter. No matter how much I, even,
personally dont like it, I cant logically argue that I have some "right"
to use somebodies ware for free when the agreement specifically says one
pay for OS/PC.

In the past yes it was "easy" to get around, now tho, it's more
difficult and often even unadvisable to try to cheat the software
author. While now verification is the realm of big companies, its' only
a matter of time before even the smaller software companies do the same.
 
N

Nina DiBoy

philo said:
You cannot legally use *any* Microsoft OS one more than one computer...
but since XP Microsoft takes steps to prevent you from doing so.

are you still sure you like Vista????

It's not illegal, it's just a breach of contract.

--
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Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"It would be nice if there was a check to see if you were running an
activated/validated version of Windows before you were allowed to post
in any of these news groups. If you're not activated/validated your post
automatically gets deleted.
That would get rid of the Linsux Luzzzzzzzzers once and for all."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
N

Nina DiBoy

Bruce said:
You need to purchase a separate Vista license for each computer on
which you install it.
<snip blathering>

Otherwise you are in a contract dispute with MS. And it only gets that
far if they choose to take you to court which they have never done for
non-commercial, personal use.

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"It would be nice if there was a check to see if you were running an
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in any of these news groups. If you're not activated/validated your post
automatically gets deleted.
That would get rid of the Linsux Luzzzzzzzzers once and for all."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
R

Rick C

Richard G. Harper said:
Long, LONG ago.


That's good, altho I wouldn't have thougth Vista'd been available to the
public long enough for you to phrase it that way. :)
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Nina said:
It's not illegal, it's just a breach of contract.


In many places, like the US, a breach of contract is illegal. Don't
make the common mistake of thinking that "legal/illegal" refers only to
penal code; violations of civil code is also illegal.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



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Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
N

Nina DiBoy

Bruce said:
In many places, like the US, a breach of contract is illegal. Don't
make the common mistake of thinking that "legal/illegal" refers only to
penal code; violations of civil code is also illegal.

Where is this documented? Can you cite a reliable source?

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Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
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Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"It would be nice if there was a check to see if you were running an
activated/validated version of Windows before you were allowed to post
in any of these news groups. If you're not activated/validated your post
automatically gets deleted.
That would get rid of the Linsux Luzzzzzzzzers once and for all."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Nina said:
Where is this documented? Can you cite a reliable source?


Are you serious? Why should it be necessary to "cite a source" for
something so blatantly obvious (to a native English speaker, anyway)? A
violation of a law is a violation of a law, regardless of whether the
law is part of the civil code or part of the penal code. Do I really
need I point out that a violation of a law is, by definition, "illegal?"

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal

Main Entry:
1il·le·gal \(ˌ)i(l)-ˈlē-gəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French illegal, from
Medieval Latin illegalis, from Latin in- + legalis legal
Date: 1538

: not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also : not
sanctioned by official rules


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
N

Nina DiBoy

Bruce said:
Are you serious? Why should it be necessary to "cite a source" for
something so blatantly obvious (to a native English speaker, anyway)? A
violation of a law is a violation of a law, regardless of whether the
law is part of the civil code or part of the penal code. Do I really
need I point out that a violation of a law is, by definition, "illegal?"

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal

Main Entry:
1il·le·gal \(ˌ)i(l)-ˈlē-gəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French illegal, from
Medieval Latin illegalis, from Latin in- + legalis legal
Date: 1538

: not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also : not
sanctioned by official rules

Microsoft is not able to make laws. Their EULA is not a law, it is a
contract. Do you know the difference? A contract is a formal agreement
between 2 (usually private) parties.

If you promise to loan a buck to a friend, but then realize later you
can't because you don't have change, does this mean that you broke the
law? If it was put in writing, would it mean you broke the law then?
No. Not unless your friend decided to take you to court and press the
matter in a court of law. The court could potentially make the ruling
that you broke the law by breaching the terms of the contract, but until
that happens it's only a breach of contract. Note I am referring to
fair use and personal, non-commercial use.

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"It would be nice if there was a check to see if you were running an
activated/validated version of Windows before you were allowed to post
in any of these news groups. If you're not activated/validated your post
automatically gets deleted.
That would get rid of the Linsux Luzzzzzzzzers once and for all."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
M

Mark Bourne

Nina said:
Microsoft is not able to make laws. Their EULA is not a law, it is a
contract.

I have heard somewhere that there is some doubt as to whether a legally
binding contract can be formed by ticking a box on screen. ie. if you
and Microsoft signed a paper copy of the EULA, or entered a verbal
contract to the same effect (that would take a lot of talking!), then it
could be legally binding contract, but it has not been proven whether
ticking a box on your computer screen will do.

[An interesting side thought... if someone managed to hack a copy of
Windows so that it never asks you to agree to the EULA, is that a breach
of the licence? You haven't yet agreed to the EULA, which is what
prohibits you from modifying the software, so is there anything else
prohibiting you from doing so...? Hope raising that question doesn't get
me in any trouble!]
Do you know the difference? A contract is a formal agreement
between 2 (usually private) parties.

If you promise to loan a buck to a friend, but then realize later you
can't because you don't have change, does this mean that you broke the
law?

As I understand it (I'm not a lawyer - just had a few lectures on
contract law as part of an engineering course), that doesn't constitute
a legally binding contract as you do not gain from the agreement. There
are a few other conditions as well for it to become a legal contract,
but I can't remember them all.
If it was put in writing, would it mean you broke the law then?
No.

A contract does not have to be put in writing. It can be a verbal
agreement. The problem with that, though, is proving what was agreed.
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Nina said:
Microsoft is not able to make laws. Their EULA is not a law, it is a
contract.


No one has ever claimed that it is. Lintrolls and others always accuse
people of claiming the EULA is law when they need to divert attention
from their lack of any other rational rebuttal, but this is a glaringly
transperent tactic that fools no one.

Do you know the difference? A contract is a formal agreement
between 2 (usually private) parties.

Doh! It is the breach of the contract, regardless of type, that is the
violation of the law, the Uniform Commercial Code, to be specific.
(Also, violation of the EULA would also, in the US, be a violation of
Copyright law.)

If you promise to loan a buck to a friend, but then realize later you
can't because you don't have change, does this mean that you broke the
law?

If there was a formal contract, then I'd say so, yes.
If it was put in writing, would it mean you broke the law then?
No.

Now it's your turn to cite a reference to support this claim
Not unless your friend decided to take you to court and press the
matter in a court of law.

Are you kidding? By that "reasoning," no crime can ever have been
committed, no law can ever have been broken, until someone is tried and
convicted, regardless of the bloody corpses scattered about the scene.
The court could potentially make the ruling
that you broke the law by breaching the terms of the contract, but until
that happens it's only a breach of contract.


Not so.
Note I am referring to
fair use and personal, non-commercial use.


Oh, please. The term "fair use" is most often deliberately misused
by those who oppose protecting intellectual property as a "red herring"
in any argument concerning copyright laws and the EULA, because it
sounds like something everyone should favor.

"Fair Use," as defined by copyright law, doesn't apply in any way to
this discussion.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 1 > § 107

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Release date: 2004-04-30

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including
multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an
infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work
in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall
include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

For more information:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Mark said:
I have heard somewhere that there is some doubt as to whether a legally
binding contract can be formed by ticking a box on screen. ie. if you
and Microsoft signed a paper copy of the EULA, or entered a verbal
contract to the same effect (that would take a lot of talking!), then it
could be legally binding contract, but it has not been proven whether
ticking a box on your computer screen will do.


I'm afraid you've been misinformed. A federal appeals court ruled long
ago that software EULAs in general are binding contracts under the
Uniform Commercial Code.

Procd, Inc. v. Zeidenberg
http://www.law.emory.edu/7circuit/june96/96-1139.html

[An interesting side thought... if someone managed to hack a copy of
Windows so that it never asks you to agree to the EULA, is that a breach
of the licence? You haven't yet agreed to the EULA, which is what
prohibits you from modifying the software, so is there anything else
prohibiting you from doing so...? Hope raising that question doesn't get
me in any trouble!]



You must be a lawyer. ;-) Seriously, though, why would anyone perform
such a "hack," other than to "get around" a EULA with whose terms he
disagreed. I should think that the deliberate act of hacking the OS to
remove the EULA would constitute proof that the hacker was already aware
of the EULA's contents, and therefore in violation. Of course, only a
court could say for sure, in this hypothetical case.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
J

John Barnes

You're right on the UCC, but there are far too many fools running around,
and, alas, they aren't all trolls.
 
N

Nina DiBoy

Bruce said:
No one has ever claimed that it is.

Actually you are if you claim it is illegal to not follow the license to
the very letter.
Lintrolls and others always
accuse people of claiming the EULA is law when they need to divert
attention from their lack of any other rational rebuttal, but this is a
glaringly transperent tactic that fools no one.

If you claim that its illegal to breach the license, but that the EULA
is not a law, then your theory here holds no water.
Doh! It is the breach of the contract, regardless of type, that is
the violation of the law, the Uniform Commercial Code, to be specific.

So prove it. Back up your assertions with concrete links.
(Also, violation of the EULA would also, in the US, be a violation of
Copyright law.)

Only for purposes of things like large scale pirating and reverse
engineering, which is completely out of the scope of the conversation in
this post.
If there was a formal contract, then I'd say so, yes.

Do you realize how rediculous you sound? This would never hold up in a
court for a civil case.
Now it's your turn to cite a reference to support this claim

See above, I just did.
Are you kidding? By that "reasoning," no crime can ever have been
committed, no law can ever have been broken, until someone is tried and
convicted, regardless of the bloody corpses scattered about the scene.

Presumed Innocent until proven guilty. Is this news to you too?
Not so.



Oh, please. The term "fair use" is most often deliberately misused
by those who oppose protecting intellectual property as a "red herring"
in any argument concerning copyright laws and the EULA, because it
sounds like something everyone should favor.

"Fair Use," as defined by copyright law, doesn't apply in any way to
this discussion.

That is in correct, especially in light of the fact that you are
bringing copyright in to this conversation. Fair use has everything to
do with this conversation, it is the only context in which I am speaking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 1 > § 107

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Release date: 2004-04-30

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including
multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an
infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work
in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall
include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

For more information:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"It would be nice if there was a check to see if you were running an
activated/validated version of Windows before you were allowed to post
in any
of these news groups. If you're not activated/validated your post
automatically gets deleted.
That would get rid of the Linsux Luzzzzzzzzers once and for all."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Nina said:
Actually you are if you claim it is illegal to not follow the license to
the very letter.


If you claim that its illegal to breach the license, but that the EULA
is not a law, then your theory here holds no water.


So prove it. Back up your assertions with concrete links.


Only for purposes of things like large scale pirating and reverse
engineering, which is completely out of the scope of the conversation in
this post.


Do you realize how rediculous you sound? This would never hold up in a
court for a civil case.

Depends on the court doesn't it? (And yes, I do realize it's an
extreme position. That doesn't necessarily wrong, though.)
See above, I just did.


No, you cited nothing. Are you in complete denial?

Presumed Innocent until proven guilty. Is this news to you too?


Ah.... Hello? What does the presumed innocence (or guilt, for that
matter) of a perpetrator have to do with the fact that a crime has still
been committed? Are you completely incapable of rational thought? Or
is English a second or third language for you?


That is in correct, especially in light of the fact that you are
bringing copyright in to this conversation. Fair use has everything to
do with this conversation, it is the only context in which I am speaking.


Of course it's correct. Did you not even bother to read to law? I
cited it so you wouldn't be burdened with having to look it up for yourself.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
N

Nina DiBoy

Unless it is found to be unconscionable.
Depends on the court doesn't it? (And yes, I do realize it's an
extreme position. That doesn't necessarily wrong, though.)



No, you cited nothing. Are you in complete denial?

OK, I'll get more specific for you. MS has never even bothered to try
to take an end user to court for a piracy violation of the EULA.
Therefore the best proof I can offer is that it has never happened.
There is no precedent set to back up your assertion.
Ah.... Hello? What does the presumed innocence (or guilt, for that
matter) of a perpetrator have to do with the fact that a crime has still
been committed? Are you completely incapable of rational thought? Or
is English a second or third language for you?

Presumed innocent until proven guilty, based on a preponderance of the
evidence in a court. Presumed innocent means being innocent of all
charge(s) or crime(s) that is being brought before the court _until_ a
final judgment is rendered by the court. It may well be your personal
opinion that a crime has been committed, but it is not concrete until
the trial is over and the decision made. You are putting the cart
before the horse here Bruce.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/i047.htm

"INNOCENCE, PRESUMPTION OF - The indictment or formal charge against any
person is not evidence of guilt. Indeed, the person is presumed by the
law to be innocent. The law does not require a person to prove his
innocence or produce any evidence at all. The Government has the burden
of proving a person guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and if it fails to
do so the person is (so far as the law is concerned) not guilty."

Of course it's correct. Did you not even bother to read to law? I
cited it so you wouldn't be burdened with having to look it up for
yourself.

To quote you, *""Fair Use," as defined by copyright law"*...

How does ""Fair Use," as defined by *copyright law*" have nothing to do
with this conversation since you brought copyright into this
conversation? If I'm talking about fair use and you are talking about
""Fair Use," as defined by copyright law"...?

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"It would be nice if there was a check to see if you were running an
activated/validated version of Windows before you were allowed to post
in any of these news groups. If you're not activated/validated your post
automatically gets deleted.
That would get rid of the Linsux Luzzzzzzzzers once and for all."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
A

Alias

Nina said:
Presumed innocent until proven guilty, based on a preponderance of the
evidence in a court. Presumed innocent means being innocent of all
charge(s) or crime(s) that is being brought before the court _until_ a
final judgment is rendered by the court. It may well be your personal
opinion that a crime has been committed, but it is not concrete until
the trial is over and the decision made. You are putting the cart
before the horse here Bruce.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/i047.htm

"INNOCENCE, PRESUMPTION OF - The indictment or formal charge against any
person is not evidence of guilt. Indeed, the person is presumed by the
law to be innocent. The law does not require a person to prove his
innocence or produce any evidence at all. The Government has the burden
of proving a person guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and if it fails to
do so the person is (so far as the law is concerned) not guilty."

This is why I strongly object to the WPA/WGA trip. It assumes you are
guilty of piracy until you are pronounced innocent by MS' WPA/WGA court
which is flawed so you have to call the MS court by phone and state your
case. MS is the judge, jury and prosecuter. The fact that people think
this is normal boggles the mind.

Alias
 
G

Guest

I have an idea... how about - instead of arguing the semantics of
contractual law, you just accpet the answer you were given in the first place.

You asked a question, you got a VERY WELL WRITTEN and (more importantly)
CORRECT ANSWER. So what on earth are you arguing all this other "BS" for?
If you dont' like the way contractual law works, then don't sign contracts
and don't use software.
 
X

XS11E

BigCat said:
You asked a question, you got a VERY WELL WRITTEN and (more
importantly) CORRECT ANSWER. So what on earth are you arguing
all this other "BS" for? If you dont' like the way contractual
law works, then don't sign contracts and don't use software.

Not to be critical because I agree with what you said but consider
this, please:

If you don't like the way trolls work, then plonk them and don't
respond.

Bruce Chambers doesn't seem to be able to follow the "Do Not Feed the
Trolls" rule, can you?
 

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