so much for linux

[David Maynard]

David Maynard wrote:




Not "out of the box", like so many claim. You likely need 3rd party drivers
to make your hardware work. Most hardware that works with Linux at all, is
included with the distro.

Besides my not being so sure Linux supports more 'out of the box' to begin
with that's, again, primarily a song and dance around the real issue as
being 'native' is of no value if the device you want to use isn't supported
and while you try to make 'third party drivers' sound like a 'negative'
they mean the device Linux can't use will work in Windows.

The fair description is that for 'supported' devices Linux might be a
teensy bit more convenient than the times Windows might require a third
party driver (usually for the newest devices and assuming Linux 'supports'
it was well: not a forgone conclusion) but using a third party driver for
Windows is a heck of a lot more useful than it being not supported at all,
as one can easily run into with Linux.

As a side note, I have yet to find a current Linux distribution that will
work properly on a Windows Domain using the configuration tools a typical
user would understand.

 

[David Maynard]

Bill Turner wrote:




No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you haven't
responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows shareware/freeware
programmers be concentrating on fixing all of Windows backdoors and all the
nasties that plague the OS? It only seems to reason, following the similar
logic you suggest for Linux developers.




The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything to work
out of the box despite the lack of 3rd party driver support. If you want
driver support to run Linux on your hardware, write the hardware
manufacturer and ask them about getting support for Linux.

Most users are not on a 'quest for the holy Linux' and, yes, do want
whatever they get to work, and without having to become an O.S. expert.


<snip>

 

[Lordy]

As a side note, I have yet to find a current Linux distribution that
will work properly on a Windows Domain using the configuration tools a
typical user would understand.

Linux != Windows
Windows == Windows

 

[Matt]

How is Joe Programmer going to fix
Windows even if he wanted to?

Good point.

 

[Ruel Smith]

No, the fixes for vulnerabilities is the responsibility of whoever wrote
the software in the first place. How is Joe Programmer going to fix
Windows even if he wanted to?

Excactly, therefore those open source projects on Sourceforge are completely
legit.

Had no idea I was so demanding.

No, it's fine to ask that your OS work like you think it should, but you
must direct your disappointment of hardware support to the hardware OEMs.
They have the duty to support the OS. Ask _them_ why their hardware doesn't
work in Linux, and not the Linux community why Linux doesn't work with
their hardware.

I hope so too. I hope it gets so good that people will abandon Windows
in droves. Wouldn't that be nice? I'm dead serious... a program that
good would be wonderful. Not seeing it yet.

I totally agree with everyone that Linux is far from complete, and many
might, and probably should continue to shy away from it. I don't claim that
everyone should jump on the Linux bandwagon. However, it's been a fine OS
for me, particularly the last 2 years. I won't give up my Windows machine
just yet, but I'm spending less time using it, and more time discovering
Linux.

 

[Ruel Smith]

Good point.

Someone already did. Months before Microsoft finally released the IE URL
spoofing flaw, someone posted a fix on the internet. They weren't
associated with Microsoft, either.

 

[Bill Turner]

So if he thinks ahead a bit, an alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt reader
doesn't have to go so far out of his way to try Linux.

___________________________________________________________

Yes, but we were talking about the average guy, not readers of this
group.

 

[Matt]

Windows marketshare has been over 90% for at least five years and has
continued rising.

That's false. Market share for the latest version is always rising, if
that's what you mean. Notably, XP is now displacing 98SE. When you add
up all the market shares of all MS OSes, you find that the total MS
share is falling.

See http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

From March '03 to Dec '04, total Windows share went from 93.2% to 89.9%.

BTW, note that IE share has dropped from 84.1% to 71.7% this year.

But the more important thing to notice is that the big hardware makers
are lining up against Microsoft:

http://osdl.org/
http://groups.osdl.org/osdl_members/osdl_roster/

 

[Matt]

___________________________________________________________

If you're going to assess blame, some of it must go to the legions of
Linux programmers who are not interested in writing hardware drivers.
Yes, I know the OEM's should do it, but if they don't, the Linux
community should.

 

[Matt]

@news01.roc.ny:




___________________________________________________________

Yes, but we were talking about the average guy, not readers of this
group.

We were talking about Mr. Jessop's problem installing SuSE.

 

[Ruel Smith]

But the more important thing to notice is that the big hardware makers
are lining up against Microsoft:

http://osdl.org/
http://groups.osdl.org/osdl_members/osdl_roster/

I think that as Linux gets better, the larger hardware makers have more to
gain because they'll take away the favoritism Microsoft has shown certain
companies over the years (Intel) and put power into the hands of the OEMs
because they no longer have to bend to Microsoft's will.

 

[John Doe]

Market share for the latest version is always rising, if
that's what you mean.

What I mean is that Microsoft Windows has a stranglehold on the
personal computer desktop market. At some point it has to stop
growing. Whatever, it's stronger than a stranglehold needs to be.

Notably, XP is now displacing 98SE. When you add
up all the market shares of all MS OSes, you find that the total MS
share is falling.

See http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

"W3Schools is for training only. We do not warrant the correctness
of the content."

But seriously.

My information comes from the United States federal appeals court
and various well-known, highly respected Information
Technology professionals.

The European Union has come to the same conclusions about
Microsoft's monopoly power. That's why they're forcing Microsoft to
unbundle Media Player from Windows. I saw news about that today,
Microsoft lost an appeal.

But the more important thing to notice is that the big hardware
makers are lining up against Microsoft:

Big hardware makers have been lining up against Microsoft for many
years. It doesn't matter because Microsoft has a stranglehold on the
desktop computer market. The only thing you can hope for is that
Microsoft does not take over the server operating system market.

If you want some really entertaining/enlightening information, read
about when Microsoft forced IBM to drop IBM's own office software.

http://usvms.gpo.gov/findings_index.html

Anybody remember Lotus SmartSuite? IBM bought the company and then
wanted to include SmartSuite with IBM's own personal computers.
Microsoft said no. IBM followed Microsoft's orders.

http://osdl.org/

"the recognized center of gravity for Linux"

But seriously.

Linux is doing well as a server operating system. But Windows
remains in total control of the personal computer market.

If you have any real sources, please post more links.

 

[John Doe]

Bill Turner wrote:

Your reading comprehension seems kinda poor.

Linux advocacy here in this group is IMO a total waste of time. You
have some experts who might think selling a Linux PC is like an
oxymoron. Then you have someone asking for help using a PC, and we get
into some even funnier stuff there.

 

[John Doe]

Bill Turner wrote:

No, it's fine to ask that your OS work like you think it should,
but you must direct your disappointment of hardware support to the
hardware OEMs. They have the duty to support the OS. Ask _them_ why
their hardware doesn't work in Linux, and not the Linux community
why Linux doesn't work with their hardware.

Forever ignoring the essence/point. A user doesn't really care about
the Linux community or whether what he (or she) does is helps the
Linux cause, he just wants his PC to work.

I totally agree with everyone that Linux is far from complete, and
many might, and probably should continue to shy away from it. I
don't claim that everyone should jump on the Linux bandwagon.
However, it's been a fine OS for me, particularly the last 2 years.
I won't give up my Windows machine just yet, but I'm spending less
time using it, and more time discovering Linux.

Currently, Linux is a server operating system, Windows is a personal
computer operating system.

 

[David Maynard]

Linux != Windows
Windows == Windows

Thank you for stating the obvious, even though irrelevant.

 

[Lordy]

Currently, Linux is a server operating system, Windows is a personal
computer operating system.

Depends (on both counts)

 

[Lordy]

Thank you for stating the obvious,

You are welcome.

even though irrelevant.

I disagree. If you want Windows use windows.

Windows doesnt do this, OSX doesnt do that , Linux doesnt do the
other...

A "typical windows user" expects Windows without retraining (be-it
informal) - so give them Windows.

Its a straw man argument to say

So what.

 

[Lordy]

Its a straw man argument to say


So what.

To qualify a bit more. A lot of people who dont like Linux (for whatever
reason) were really looking for a free Windows Clone. Whilst "Desktop"
Linux has improved in leaps and bounds - it is not - and likely never will
be - a Windows Clone. So People looking for Windows Clones are advised to
continue to look elsewhere other than Linux. "Oh woe is me - the
configuration tools are different"... People like this will always find
something to complain about because Linux is not a Windows clone.

The also happily ignore aspects of Linux that may even be better than
Windows. Its all boring...

 

[John Doe]

Depends (on both counts)

Last I checked, Microsoft is gaining in the server operating system
market.

Another example of Microsoft's complete dominance of the personal
computer operating system market is that Apple is dependent on
Microsoft writing Office and Internet Explorer for the Mac. Apple had
serious concerns about going under when Microsoft threatened to stop
office development for the Mac.

By not knowing about the positive feedback loop which keeps Windows
entrenched, imagining that Linux can make it on the merits, some
Linux proponents play into the hands of Microsoft. I guess you could
argue that it doesn't matter, but Microsoft loves the naïveté.

 

[Matt]

Matt wrote:




I think that as Linux gets better, the larger hardware makers have more to
gain because they'll take away the favoritism Microsoft has shown certain
companies over the years (Intel) and put power into the hands of the OEMs
because they no longer have to bend to Microsoft's will.

And hardware makers always want the included software to be cheaper or
free, because that lowers the cost of the hardware/software bundle, so
they can sell more product.