Removable Hard Drive Bay Problems Anyone?

[Bob]

You admit that you are only using an ATA33 system with them.

And I said that my son is running his a 250GB HD in a KF-23.

You do see a lot less problems if you dont flout standards.

How does Kingwin flout the standards? Do you have any direct evidence
that the Directron Kingwin is flauting the ATA standard? If you do I
want to see it because if it is true I am going to take the matter up
with Directron. I know some people there and I can tell you that they
do not like to sell defective parts because it costs them more than
they make in the long run.

Its never possible for any operation to ever know
what results every single one of their customers gets.

It's not the individual but the aggregate that counts because a
systematic problem will only be uncovered in aggregate usage.

An individual can have other reasons for why something is not working.

There's been quite a few reports of problems with
removable drive bays in the US in csipchs alone.

Does the Kingwin unit show up often?

IOW, are specific models prone to problems and other models not? Also,
what about the model of disk drive? Is the cable marginal? Are there 2
removable drives on the same IDE cable? What about the MB model? All
these impact the reliability of removable drives.

Wouldn't it be dishonest - and illegal - for a manufacturer to claim
that it's product is specification compliant yet not be? Kingwin
claims to be ATA compliant, so why should I believe they are
"flaunting" anything? I realize that unscrupulous makers can flout
standards, but I find it hard to accept without evidence that a brand
name like Directron Kingwin would be that way.

 

[Bob]

Yeah, and they were wrong.

The unit was pure crap - it never worked properly even when it was a
IDE master.

I wouldnt bother with CDRW now, I'd get a DVD burner instead.

I will when I need to, but for now I have the other CD-RW available
from an old machine my son fried. Anyway, my son is the DVD guy.

Yeah, they were pretty bad.

They were also pretty arrogant. I sent the unit in to be replaced and
they said they were not going to replace it because I had written the
word "DAMAGED" on the top. So they sent it back. If you shook it
lightly you could hear loose parts rattling around inside. Depending
on the way you put it in the machine, it would make a whirring sound
when you booted the computer.

I wrote the vendor in Houston (not Directron) who sold me the unit and
told him either to take the piece of crap back or I would not buy from
him again. He apparently did not want my business because all he would
do is send it to the factory. I told him I already did it and what
they did and he just ignored me. That's when I discovered Directron
and have bought from them ever since.

You said you wouldnt buy serial #1 again too |-)

Yeah, but I have an agreement that I can return the unit if it doesn't
perform as advertised and incur no restocking fees. I believe they
want me to evaluate it for them.

I dont bother with floppy drives anymore. Dont
even bother to install one in most PCs I assemble.

Windows prompts for an "emergency repair disk" which is kept on a
floppy.

Your likes are irrelevant.

They are relevant to me - and that's all that counts.

 

[Rod Speed]

And I said that my son is running his a 250GB HD in a KF-23.

But you didnt specify how that was being run.

How does Kingwin flout the standards?

The main flouting of the standards with removable drive bays
is with the cable detail between the drive connector and the
motherboard connector. Its nothing like the standard specifys.

Do you have any direct evidence that the
Directron Kingwin is flauting the ATA standard?

Yes, nothing else is even possible with removable drive bays.

If you do I want to see it

http://www.t13.org/docs2002/d1532v2r0d-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf
Figure 9

because if it is true I am going to take the matter up with Directron.

It wont be any news to them and if you demand strict adherence
to the standard, they will tell you to use a SATA based system.

I know some people there and I can tell you that
they do not like to sell defective parts because it
costs them more than they make in the long run.

They have no choice but to flout the ATA
standard with a removable drive bay.

It's not the individual but the aggregate that counts because a
systematic problem will only be uncovered in aggregate usage.

Its the exceptions that bite when you flout standards.

An individual can have other reasons for why something is not working.

Yes, thats why I said it isnt possible for an operation
like Directron to be able to get a handle on what
happens when they have flouted the standards.

We have standards for a reason.

Does the Kingwin unit show up often?

Often enough for me to avoid removable drive bays.

IOW, are specific models prone to problems and other models not?

No, there is no removable drive bay system that never has any problems.

Also, what about the model of disk drive?

Yes, the problem is definitely worse with
modern high performance interface hard drives.

Is the cable marginal?

The problem is still seen with cables within the standard's specs.

Are there 2 removable drives on the same IDE cable?

Its often not practical to have just one drive and
the problem is still seen with just one anyway.

What about the MB model?

The whole point of adhering to standards is that you avoid
that silly stuff, that a particular removable drive bay only works
reliably with a particular hard drive model and motherboard model.

All these impact the reliability of removable drives.

Because they flout the ATA standard.

Wouldn't it be dishonest

Not if they dont claim it adheres to the ATA standard when it doesnt.

- and illegal

Certainly not unless the manufacturer claims
it adheres to the ATA standard when it doesnt.

- for a manufacturer to claim that it's product is specification compliant

Kingwin doesnt claim that.

yet not be? Kingwin claims to be ATA compliant,

Gotta cite on that ?
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=35&ID=87
doesnt appear to do that.

so why should I believe they are "flaunting" anything?

See the ATA document cited above.

And its FLOUT not flaunt

I realize that unscrupulous makers can flout standards,
but I find it hard to accept without evidence that a brand
name like Directron Kingwin would be that way.

There is no alternative with an ATA/IDE removable drive bay.

The SATA removable drive bays dont need to flout the standard.

 

[Rod Speed]

The unit was pure crap - it never worked
properly even when it was a IDE master.

Yeah, it was notorious for being a dud and that insistance on it being
master appears to have just been a desperate attempt to use it in a
config that wasnt quite as bad as when it was jumpered as slave.

The 'designers' should have been taken out the back and shot.

I will when I need to, but for now I have the other CD-RW available
from an old machine my son fried. Anyway, my son is the DVD guy.

DVD is just much better value now, even just for data backup.

They were also pretty arrogant. I sent the unit in to be replaced
and they said they were not going to replace it because I had
written the word "DAMAGED" on the top. So they sent it back. If
you shook it lightly you could hear loose parts rattling around inside.

Novel approach to 'support' |-)

Depending on the way you put it in the machine, it would
make a whirring sound when you booted the computer.

I wrote the vendor in Houston (not Directron) who sold me the
unit and told him either to take the piece of crap back or I would
not buy from him again. He apparently did not want my business
because all he would do is send it to the factory. I told him I
already did it and what they did and he just ignored me. That's
when I discovered Directron and have bought from them ever since.

Yeah, but I have an agreement that I can return the unit
if it doesn't perform as advertised and incur no restocking
fees. I believe they want me to evaluate it for them.

Urk, how you will be wearing your cast iron shorts |-)

Windows prompts for an "emergency repair disk" which is kept on a floppy.

XP doesnt.

They are relevant to me - and that's all that counts.

Not now that the RSPCPPDOSLPTUBD is on the job.

 

[Bob]

http://www.t13.org/docs2002/d1532v2r0d-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf
Figure 9

I fail to see the significance of that figure.

What I do see inside the box is an 80-wire ATA-type connector that
connects to the drive - it appears to be the same as an official ATA
ribbon cable.

There is the connector between the tray and the box that the tray goes
into. That looks like an old Centronics 20 pin connector, like the
ones used on printers.

Are you saying that it is this 20-pin connector that is causing the
removable bay to be non-compliant?

If so, do you have direct evidence that using such an arrangement
actually causes a problem? I can see how such an arrangement can be
abused by using poor quality parts, but if the parts used are quality,
how can it cause actual problems?

IOW, is this a boogy man or a real problem with the Directron Kingwin
bay? Have you contacted Kingwin to discuss this matter? Or are you
issuing a blanket indictment based on anecdotal claims about inferior
units?

They have no choice but to flout the ATA
standard with a removable drive bay.

Yes, I can see that with the use of a 20-pin connector between the
tray and the bay. I would think they could use a 40-pin connector
specifically designed to meet ATA specifications. But that's not the
issue here.

Its the exceptions that bite when you flout standards.

I agree when the components are crap. But how do you know that the
components used by Kingwin cause a real problem?

We have standards for a reason.

I spent time as a hardware design engineer in the SCADA indusrty. When
I was R&D manager our group was the first to put an affordable CMOS
RTU on the market - we sold literally thousands. I am very
knowledgeable of the importance of standards.

Yet we had to cut corners on some standards because CMOS LSI was
relatively new at the time (c. 1983). We subjected our design to the
most rigorous of tests with beta sights such as Mobil Oil Producing
Texas New Mexico - out in the oil field. They used 100 of them for
pumpoff control in a very hazardous environment. We passed all the
tests.

IOW, if you are forced to "flout" a standard, and you produce a robust
workaround and test the livin' crap out of it. After all, today's
standards are yesterday's "flouted" standards brought up to speed in a
new situation.

If everybody in the design business adhered to existing standards like
anal retentives, then we would still be using clubs to catch supper.

Often enough for me to avoid removable drive bays.

I'll take that as a "no".

I appreciate your concerns and I am aware of problems that can exist
when someone flouts standards. But I am also experienced enough to
know that standards are flouted to create new products. That's how new
standards get written.

One area I participated in was modem standards. Back then Bell 212A
was the dominant standard - that was 24 Kbits/sec. We used a brand new
CMOS modem chip designed and manufactured by Texas Instruments in
England. That's how we kept costs so low. It was a risk but when the
Texas New Mexico trials were completed we knew the risks had paid off.
As a result we sold a shitload of those RTUs to the pipelines like
Panhandle Eastern (now Duke Energy). They needed to run the units off
solar panels, so CMOS was a necessity.

No, there is no removable drive bay system that never has any problems.

Please furnish direct evidence that the Directron Kingwin KF-23 has
caused any real problems.

Its often not practical to have just one drive and
the problem is still seen with just one anyway.

I put my boot disk directly on the primary IDE cable as usual, and I
put the removable one on the other cable as a slave (because of that
crap Mitsumi CD-RW problem). I tried it other ways but the transfer
rate measured by DIP 4.0 is always about the same. It is actually a
bit faster with the removable drive as second channel slave.

The whole point of adhering to standards is that you avoid
that silly stuff, that a particular removable drive bay only works
reliably with a particular hard drive model and motherboard model.

I'll take that to mean high-quality MB and drive. I don't buy junk -
never have and never will. I pay extra for high-quality components.

I can understand your concerns if some script kiddy builds an
el-cheapo piece of crap with third-rate junk from fly by night
suppliers. But I don't do that, so you can't lump me with the twits.

Because they flout the ATA standard.

I am trying to make a case that there are two kinds of flouting - the
kind that you can get by with and the kind that you cannot.

I have the impression that you are tarring the entire removable bay
industry with too broad a brush.

Kingwin doesnt claim that.

Gotta cite on that ?

I have their marketing collateral, which reads in part:

"Support all brands of 3.5" IDE ATA 33/66/100/133 H.D.D."

The operative word is "support". Until I am told otherwise, I have to
take that to mean they meet the standards, albeit not the way you
insist they do.

If I connect two tin cans with a taut string, I have a communications
device. It is as good if not better than a telephone. I am obviously
not compliant with telephony specs but I do "support" voice
communications when used as directed.

Maybe Kingwin found that using a "Centronic" 20-pin connector met the
requirements for ATA compliance, although they did not implement the
recommended design.

http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=35&ID=87
doesnt appear to do that.

Please point out where they are non-compliant.

And its FLOUT not flaunt

OK. I will use flout instead. I never could spell worth a crap,
although I am better than a lot of posters.

BTW, since one good deed deserves another, the correct word is "it's"
not "its".

I ususally do not engage in spelling flames.

The SATA removable drive bays dont need to flout the standard.

I am not ready for SATA.

 

[Bob]

Yeah, it was notorious for being a dud and that insistance on it being
master appears to have just been a desperate attempt to use it in a
config that wasnt quite as bad as when it was jumpered as slave.

The 'designers' should have been taken out the back and shot.

After I bad-mouthed Mitsumi to my erstwhile supplier, I found they not
only dropped that unit but they quit selling any Mitsumi products.
They were the largest wholesale vendor in Houston back then.

It pays to bitch sometimes.

DVD is just much better value now, even just for data backup.

5 GB is not enough for me, that's why I use a disk. For $50 I can back
up all I want. And it is erasable too.

Novel approach to 'support' |-)
Pricks.

Urk, how you will be wearing your cast iron shorts |-)

I like the concept so much I just have to try it out. There is
something really neat about how it is designed. I pop a second disk in
hot and in 15 minutes I have a 10GB backup which I can take out hot.
And I do not have to do anything but suspend low-level disk processes,
like Disk Manager. Or so they claim.

Even if I have to turn off all background tasks, the convenience of
hot swappable backups is enough to get me interested. For the past 5
years I have had to stop everything, shut the machine off, put in the
removable drive, boot to DOS and run a slow backup utility (DIP) that
taked 1 hour per 10GB (with verify - I never back up without turning
verify on). Then I have to power down again and remove the drive. On
top of that it appears the partition is screwed up when I want to
restore. Bummer.

XP doesnt.

I am waiting for my son to become the expert on XP so I won't have to
learn yet another Windows scheme. I am sure they pay good money for a
small group to figure out ways to confuse consumers where things are.
That's how much Gates is pissed off about UNIX and its human-friendly
way of doing things. He wanted to join with AT&T and they were ready
to sign him up until he insisted becoming a board member.

Good thing they booted him away. It was not much later that he
performed the slickest case of date rape known in the industry with
IBM.

Not now that the RSPCPPDOSLPTUBD is on the job.

They are irrelevant.

 

[Rod Speed]

I fail to see the significance of that figure.

What there is electrically between the motherboard and drive connector
is completely different in Fig 9 and with a removable drive bay.

What I do see inside the box is an 80-wire ATA-type
connector that connects to the drive - it appears to
be the same as an official ATA ribbon cable.

Pity about what is between that particular connector and the one
that connects to the motherboard, with a removable drive bay.

There is the connector between the tray and the box
that the tray goes into. That looks like an old Centronics
20 pin connector, like the ones used on printers.

And that is nothing like Fig 9, electrically.

Are you saying that it is this 20-pin connector that
is causing the removable bay to be non-compliant?

Yes, and the number of discontinuitys between the
motherboard connector and the drive connector.

With an ATA standard cable, there are no electrical discontinuitys at all.

If so, do you have direct evidence that using
such an arrangement actually causes a problem?

Yes, I have already told you that there have been a number of
reports of problems in here alone with removable drive bays.

You commented on one of them yourself.

I can see how such an arrangement can be abused
by using poor quality parts, but if the parts used are
quality, how can it cause actual problems?

You clearly dont know anything about electrical transmission lines.

IOW, is this a boogy man

Nope. I have already told you that there have been a number
of reports of problems in here alone with removable drive bays.

You commented on one of them yourself.

or a real problem with the Directron Kingwin bay?

Flouting standards is always a real problem for those
of us who understand why we have standards.

Have you contacted Kingwin to discuss this matter?

Dont need to. They are sure to have realised that their
removable drive bays flout the ATA standard, even if you dont.

Or are you issuing a blanket indictment

Anyone with a clue can do that when they flout the ATA standard.

based on anecdotal claims about inferior units?

Are you attempting to brush off the
FACT that they flout the ATA standard ?

Yes, I can see that with the use of a 20-pin connector between
the tray and the bay. I would think they could use a 40-pin
connector specifically designed to meet ATA specifications.

It would STILL flout the ATA standard because that doesnt allow
for ANY connector between the motherboard and drive connector.

But that's not the issue here.

Corse it is.

I agree when the components are crap. But how do you know
that the components used by Kingwin cause a real problem?

I said they flout the ATA standard. They clearly do.

I spent time as a hardware design engineer in the SCADA indusrty.

But clearly dont know anything about the reasons
the ATA standard on that 80 wire cable was chosen.

Its basically an unterminated transmission line.

And that matters with ATA100 and ATA133 speeds particularly.

When I was R&D manager our group was the first to put an
affordable CMOS RTU on the market - we sold literally thousands.
I am very knowledgeable of the importance of standards.

Yet you choose to use a removable drive bay that flouts the ATA
standard when you could use a SATA removable drive bay that is
standard compliant instead. You can get those from KingWin too.

Yet we had to cut corners on some standards because
CMOS LSI was relatively new at the time (c. 1983). We
subjected our design to the most rigorous of tests with
beta sights such as Mobil Oil Producing Texas New
Mexico - out in the oil field. They used 100 of them
for pumpoff control in a very hazardous environment.
We passed all the tests.

Some of us prefer to adhere to standards. For a reason.

IOW, if you are forced to "flout" a standard,

You arent with removable drive bays, you can comply with
the SATA standard and still get that from the same supplier.

and you produce a robust workaround
and test the livin' crap out of it.

Not feasible for a home user and a removable drive bay.

Very feasible to use a SATA removable
drive bay and not breach the standard at all.

After all, today's standards are yesterday's "flouted"
standards brought up to speed in a new situation.

Wrong with hard drive interface standards.

If everybody in the design business adhered to existing standards
like anal retentives, then we would still be using clubs to catch supper.

Crap, its completely trivial to buy a removable
drive bay that doesnt flout the relevant standard.

I'll take that as a "no".

More fool you.

I appreciate your concerns and I am aware of problems
that can exist when someone flouts standards. But I am
also experienced enough to know that standards are flouted
to create new products. That's how new standards get written.

Like hell it is. Didnt happen with SATA which does allow removable
drive bays, essentially by redesigning the connector and changing
to a serial transmission method that avoids the massive limitations
we were starting to see with ATA100 and ATA133 speeds.

One area I participated in was modem standards.

Irrelevant to hard drive standards.

Back then Bell 212A was the dominant standard - that was 24
Kbits/sec. We used a brand new CMOS modem chip designed
and manufactured by Texas Instruments in England. That's how
we kept costs so low. It was a risk but when the Texas New
Mexico trials were completed we knew the risks had paid off.

Like I said, irrelevant to hard drive standards when there
is no need to flout the standard when SATA allows standard
compliant removable drive bays and adds hot swap as well.

THATS the way to get a reliable removable drive bay.

As a result we sold a shitload of those RTUs to the pipelines
like Panhandle Eastern (now Duke Energy). They needed to
run the units off solar panels, so CMOS was a necessity.

Irrelevant to removable drive bays.

Please furnish direct evidence that the Directron

Directron is completely irrelevant.

Kingwin KF-23 has caused any real problems.

Rus already told you of one example.

It aint the only one.

I put my boot disk directly on the primary IDE cable as usual,
and I put the removable one on the other cable as a slave

And some choose to have the boot drive in the removable bay, so
they can change the OS they are booting from conveniently and
can recover from a boot drive disaster much more quickly too.

(because of that crap Mitsumi CD-RW problem). I tried it other ways
but the transfer rate measured by DIP 4.0 is always about the same.
It is actually a bit faster with the removable drive as second channel slave.

Irrelevant to whether PATA removable drive bays flout the standard.

I'll take that to mean high-quality MB and drive.

More fool you again.

I don't buy junk - never have and never will.
I pay extra for high-quality components.

Problems have been seen with high quality
motherboards, hard drives and removable drive bays too.

Some of us prefer to stay with the standards when
that is feasible, and it is with removable drive bays.

I can understand your concerns if some script
kiddy builds an el-cheapo piece of crap with
third-rate junk from fly by night suppliers.

Never ever said anything about those at all.

But I don't do that, so you can't lump me with the twits.

Never did.

I am trying to make a case that there are two kinds of flouting
- the kind that you can get by with and the kind that you cannot.

No need to flout the standard if you want a removable drive bay.
Just use a SATA standard compliant removable drive bay.

I have the impression that you are tarring the entire
removable bay industry with too broad a brush.

You're deliberately ignoring the FACT that Rus
has seen a problem with Kingwin removable
drive bays BECAUSE they flout the standard.

He aint the only one that has.

I have their marketing collateral, which reads in part:

"Support all brands of 3.5" IDE ATA 33/66/100/133 H.D.D."

Thats nothing like 'specification compliant', thats just
saying that their drive bays CAN USE those drives.

The operative word is "support".

Nope, they clearly mean that those drives can be
USED in their drive bays. Different matter entirely.

Until I am told otherwise, I have to take
that to mean they meet the standards,

You have no basis what so ever to do that.

They clearly do flout the ATA standard.

albeit not the way you insist they do.

It aint me, its what the standare requires, stupid.

If I connect two tin cans with a taut string, I have a communications
device. It is as good if not better than a telephone. I am obviously
not compliant with telephony specs but I do "support" voice
communications when used as directed.

Gets sillier by the minute.

Maybe Kingwin found that using a "Centronic" 20-pin
connector met the requirements for ATA compliance,

It cant.

although they did not implement the recommended design.

It aint recommended, its mandated. If
that isnt used, its not standard compliant.

Please point out where they are non-compliant.

Already did.

OK. I will use flout instead. I never could spell worth a crap,

Yeah, plenty of engineers have the same problem.

although I am better than a lot of posters.

BTW, since one good deed deserves
another, the correct word is "it's" not "its".

Nope, I choose to do it that way.

I also choose to use the ys form instead
of ies with words like stupiditys.

I ususally do not engage in spelling flames.

It wasnt a flame.

I am not ready for SATA.

Thats a remarkably silly justification for flouting the standard.

 

[Peter]

The SATA removable drive bays dont need to flout the standard.

Do you have an example of one which doesn't?

What is the SATA standard eqivalent to SCSI SCA-2?

 

[Rod Speed]

After I bad-mouthed Mitsumi to my erstwhile supplier, I found they
not only dropped that unit but they quit selling any Mitsumi products.
They were the largest wholesale vendor in Houston back then.

It pays to bitch sometimes.

Its more likely they saw a heap of others getting problems.

5 GB is not enough for me,

Its unlikely that what you will slash your wrists if you lose would
be much bigger than that unless you do much video stuff.

that's why I use a disk. For $ 50 I can
back up all I want. And it is erasable too.

And provides no real protection for the
worst cases of fire, flood, theft, etc etc etc.

I like the concept so much I just have to try it out.

I'd do it with SATA drives myself.

There is something really neat about how it is designed. I pop a
second disk in hot and in 15 minutes I have a 10GB backup which
I can take out hot. And I do not have to do anything but suspend
low-level disk processes, like Disk Manager. Or so they claim.

Even if I have to turn off all background tasks, the convenience
of hot swappable backups is enough to get me interested.

Mad to not use the standard compliant hot swap that comes with SATA.

For the past 5 years I have had to stop everything, shut
the machine off, put in the removable drive, boot to DOS
and run a slow backup utility (DIP) that taked 1 hour per
10GB (with verify - I never back up without turning verify on).

Its not as bad as that with modern systems time wise.

Then I have to power down again and remove
the drive. On top of that it appears the partition
is screwed up when I want to restore. Bummer.

And it remains to be seen if the standards flouting hot swap
bites you on the arse. Hence the need for the cast iron shorts.

I am waiting for my son to become the expert on XP so I won't have to
learn yet another Windows scheme. I am sure they pay good money for
a small group to figure out ways to confuse consumers where things are.
That's how much Gates is pissed off about UNIX and its human-friendly
way of doing things. He wanted to join with AT&T and they were ready
to sign him up until he insisted becoming a board member.

Its much more complicate than that. He did try pushing one
flavour of unix very early on and no one was interested.

Good thing they booted him away. It was not
much later that he performed the slickest case
of date rape known in the industry with IBM.

That slut was asking to be raped at the time.

They are irrelevant.

We'll see...

 

[Peter]

The SATA removable drive bays dont need to flout the standard.

Do you have an example of one which doesn't?

What is the SATA standard eqivalent to SCSI SCA-2?

From what I see, external enclosures should be using SFF-8470,
but what about hot plug/swap mating connector; is that SFF-8484?

http://www.serialata.org/docs/SATA II CabCon Vol 2_Gold.pdf

 

[Rod Speed]

Do you have an example of one which doesn't?

Nope, but I havent bothered looking at them,
I dont use removable drive bays myself.

What is the SATA standard eqivalent to SCSI SCA-2?

Dunno. I havent bothered with SCSI for years and years now.

 

[Bob]

Thats nothing like 'specification compliant', thats just
saying that their drive bays CAN USE those drives.

The implication is that you can use their drive bays successfully if
you use good equipment.

Gets sillier by the minute.

Yep.

 

[kony]

The implication is that you can use their drive bays successfully if
you use good equipment.

What in the world?

This is reading like you're a shill for Kingwin.
The motherboard and hard drive(s) are _NOT_ the problem when
a removable bay has a flaky connector implementation.

Citing a dozen other ways someone fluted the standards and
tested their own solution is no evidence that Kingwin's
products meet same rigorous testing standards and
reliability. It's just not so easy to keep a large
low-precision bay connected with a connector never meant for
this purpose.

Here's a real brain-teaser:

Kingwin may easily be negligent if their connectors aren't
certified by the connector manufacturer to be suitable for
the ATA66-133 bus speeds, AND to be suitable for the load
(mechanical stress) of the connected bay. If the connector
itself isn't suitable then by any good engineering standard
the device should never have gone to market at all.

 

[Bob]

This is reading like you're a shill for Kingwin.

No, I am playing devil's advocate. I thought that was obvious.

I am also interested in discovering how a vendor like Directron and a
manufacturer like Kingwin - both reputable - can get by with foisting
defective products onto the market. I know for a fact that a
low-margin operation like Directron can't afford problems with
components, so it there really was a problem here, they would not be
offering the Kingwin removable bays.

The motherboard and hard drive(s) are _NOT_ the problem when
a removable bay has a flaky connector implementation.

I can imagine low quality components to exacerbate a flaky connector
problem. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether the Kingwin
KF-series of removable bays are uniformly bad.

Citing a dozen other ways someone fluted the standards and
tested their own solution is no evidence that Kingwin's
products meet same rigorous testing standards and
reliability.

It is, however, grounds for investigating whether Kingwin did do such
testing.

It's just not so easy to keep a large
low-precision bay connected with a connector never meant for
this purpose.

I have used the Kingwin KF-21 for years, on a monthly basis. The
lockup is very tight - I have to use the front handle to lever the
tray in as tight as it can go. Once I turn the key that tray is tight
as though it were screwed into the bay. There is no slop at all.

Here's a real brain-teaser:

Kingwin may easily be negligent if their connectors aren't
certified by the connector manufacturer to be suitable for
the ATA66-133 bus speeds, AND to be suitable for the load
(mechanical stress) of the connected bay. If the connector
itself isn't suitable then by any good engineering standard
the device should never have gone to market at all.

I agree that such an indictment is possible. But I am requiring direct
evidence that Kingwin actually is guilty as charged. You and the
others could be guilty of a rush to judgement.

I come back to my original statement: I find it difficult to accept
that Directron and Kingwin can sell junk on the open market for so
long (over 5 years that I know about). I talked directly to the man
who is the head of the technical group at Directron and asked him if
they had any problems with Kingwin removable bays. He said they have
had no more trouble with them than any other computer part.

We have seen people on these forums who can't even connect an IDE
ribbon cable properly, so it would not surprise me at all to find that
there are people on these forums who have reported trouble with
removable bays, especially the kind found in junk shops.

But like everything else in life, YMMV.


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

"Our country's a place of limitless hopes and
possibilities, and nowhere is that spirit more
alive than in the great nation of Texas."
--GW Bush, U.S. President from Texas

"One thing that makes George Bush such a great
president is that he does not govern according
to public opinion polls."
--John Cornyn, U.S. Senator from Texas

 

[Richard Lowen]

The issue is whether the Kingwin
KF-series of removable bays are uniformly bad.

[....]

I have used the Kingwin KF-21 for years, on a monthly basis.
The lockup is very tight - I have to use the front handle to lever
the tray in as tight as it can go. Once I turn the key that tray is
tight as though it were screwed into the bay. There is no slop
at all.

The student computer labs at UC Los Angeles (UCLA) have
used the Kingwin removable hard drive trays for years, and
they've seen no reason to stop using them. Theirs is even
the old type that doesn't have the cam lock.


Rick Lowen

 

[Rod Speed]

The implication is that you can use their drive bays successfully

Yes, but that is a separate issue entirely to standards compliant.

if you use good equipment.

That isnt even implied, thats just a list of the drives that CAN
be used in that bay system, one way of describing the drives.

 

[Rod Speed]

No, I am playing devil's advocate.

You're doing a hell of a lot more than that.

I thought that was obvious.

I am also interested in discovering how a vendor like Directron
and a manufacturer like Kingwin - both reputable - can get by
with foisting defective products onto the market.

The answer is obvious, some like removable drive bays
and cant manage to grasp the importance of standards.

Directron clearly doesnt have a clue about that, viz those
stupid round IDE cables that flout the ATA standard even
more comprehensive than the IDE removable drive bays do.

The clearly cant even manage the most basic stuff like
the maximum length specified in the ATA standard for
the flat 80 wire ribbon cables either.

I know for a fact that a low-margin operation like
Directron can't afford problems with components,
so it there really was a problem here, they would
not be offering the Kingwin removable bays.

Complete and utter pig ignorant drivel. In spades
with those stupid round IDE cables and the 80 wire
flat ribbon cables that utterly flout the ATA standard.

I can imagine low quality components to exacerbate a flaky
connector problem. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether
the Kingwin KF-series of removable bays are uniformly bad.

Nope, the issue is actually whether they flout the ATA standard
and whether it makes any sense to do that when a standard
compliant system using SATA drives doesnt.

It is, however, grounds for investigating
whether Kingwin did do such testing.

Nope, not when Directron cant have with those
stupid standard flouting 36" flat 80 wire ribbon cables.

I have used the Kingwin KF-21 for years, on a monthly basis.

At ATA33

Thelockup is very tight - I have to use the front handle to lever the
tray in as tight as it can go. Once I turn the key that tray is tight
as though it were screwed into the bay. There is no slop at all.

It still flouts the standard.

I agree that such an indictment is possible. But I am requiring
direct evidence that Kingwin actually is guilty as charged.
You and the others could be guilty of a rush to judgement.

Nope, we have managed to grasp what standards are about
and why anyone with a clue chooses to use compliant products.

I come back to my original statement: I find it difficult
to accept that Directron and Kingwin can sell junk on the
open market for so long (over 5 years that I know about).

Directron clearly does with those stupid round IDE cables
and the extended length 80 wire flat ribbon cables in spades.

THATS the evidence that there is no rigorous testing at all.

They just flog whatever the market will buy.

It really is as basic as that.

And they dont just flog Kingwin removable drive bays either.

I talked directly to the man who is the head of the technical
group at Directron and asked him if they had any problems
with Kingwin removable bays. He said they have had no
more trouble with them than any other computer part.

Just waffle.

We have seen people on these forums who can't even connect
an IDE ribbon cable properly, so it would not surprise me at all
to find that there are people on these forums who have reported
trouble with removable bays, especially the kind found in junk shops.

Pity about Rus who doesnt qualify on either count
and the most recent report apart from Rus in csipchs

But like everything else in life, YMMV.

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

 

[Bob]

The student computer labs at UC Los Angeles (UCLA) have
used the Kingwin removable hard drive trays for years, and
they've seen no reason to stop using them. Theirs is even
the old type that doesn't have the cam lock.

Finally someone with the voice of experience.

Can you tell us the highest ATA rating used?


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

"Our country's a place of limitless hopes and
possibilities, and nowhere is that spirit more
alive than in the great nation of Texas."
--GW Bush, U.S. President from Texas

"One thing that makes George Bush such a great
president is that he does not govern according
to public opinion polls."
--John Cornyn, U.S. Senator from Texas

 

[Bob]

You're doing a hell of a lot more than that.

Actually not. You are reading in a lot more than is there.

Perhaps you are not used to dealing with Texans. They are very
AngloSaxon in their ways.

The answer is obvious, some like removable drive bays
and cant manage to grasp the importance of standards.

If the standards can be "relaxed" and the system works, so what about
these standards? The term "importance" implies a value judgement, to
which you and others are entitled, but I am entitled to consider the
standards "relaxed" if the system works for me.

I am certainly not going to spend more money on SATA - both the drives
and the bays - when PATA works for me, not on the basis of what you
judge to be "important". If you have some concrete evidence that the
kind of setup I have - quality components throughout - is defective, I
will listen. But you have this removable bay bigotry that may serve
you well, but it is not relevant to me as it stands until you can back
it up with something that applies directly to me.

Directron clearly doesnt have a clue about that, viz those
stupid round IDE cables that flout the ATA standard even
more comprehensive than the IDE removable drive bays do.

I have debated the round IDE cable issue and the consensus was that
quality cables are just as good as flat cables.

Your prejudices are noted. You like to be a purist, which is fine if
that's your thing. I am a bit more adventuresome and I like innovative
approaches even if they relax standards a little - especially when
they work better than alternative approaches.

I have seen far more weeping and moaning about SATA than round IDE
cables and removable bays when used with quality components.

Complete and utter pig ignorant drivel.

Ad-hom noted. I have been a gentleman with you throughout this debate.
I expect you to follow suit. If you have a message that you think is
important, then I will listen. But you are not my wife so you can't
tell me what to do and what not to do. I will respectfully decline to
follow your admonitions, keeping in mind that I am taking a bit of a
risk.

Nope, the issue is actually whether they flout the ATA standard
and whether it makes any sense to do that when a standard
compliant system using SATA drives doesnt.

SATA has more known problems than round IDE cables and removable bays
made by reputable manufacturers. Also SATA is more expensive. I will
wait another generation before jumping into SATA.

They just flog whatever the market will buy.

Not when it costs them money. I know some of the Directron people,
since I was one of their earliest customers before they went national.
I have discussed the issue of second-rate parts and they tell me that
it pays them to weed such crap out of their product line because poor
quality costs them more than they make on the sale.

And they dont just flog Kingwin removable drive bays either.

I picked Kingwin because it was recommended to me by the head of the
technical group. I did not get into why they stocked other brands -
that's their business. But you can be assured that if they spot a
pattern of poor quality they will drop the product.

Take a look at what happened to their Epox offering. As recent as a
year ago they carried a full line of Epox MBs. Now they carru none.

Just waffle.

You cannot offer anything concrete to support that claim. I can just
as easily claim all that you say is just waffle.

Pity about Rus who doesnt qualify on either count
and the most recent report apart from Rus in csipchs

Did he tell you the components he used? Is he qualified to work on
hardware? Did he have other problems?

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

You are obsessed with this standards stuff. Psychologists have a term
for that behavior but I promised not to get personal.




--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

"Our country's a place of limitless hopes and
possibilities, and nowhere is that spirit more
alive than in the great nation of Texas."
--GW Bush, U.S. President from Texas

"One thing that makes George Bush such a great
president is that he does not govern according
to public opinion polls."
--John Cornyn, U.S. Senator from Texas

 

[Bob]

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

You flaunt standards when you top post and fail to use the apostrophe,
when it is perfectly possible to comply.

Of course, if English is your second language and you are new to
Usenet, I can understand why you top post and fail to use the
apostrophe when it is clearly required.


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

"Our country's a place of limitless hopes and
possibilities, and nowhere is that spirit more
alive than in the great nation of Texas."
--GW Bush, U.S. President from Texas

"One thing that makes George Bush such a great
president is that he does not govern according
to public opinion polls."
--John Cornyn, U.S. Senator from Texas