Removable Hard Drive Bay Problems Anyone?

[Rus]

Sorry if this has been covered. I've been using removable hard drive bays
for years without problems. The design I chose implements a "Centronics"
type connector (looks like a parallel connector for a printer.)

Things are great for years. Then? I buy a couple of new WD hard drives
and then I've then got problems like: One or the other drive not
recognized during POST, sometimes I get clicking by the drives as if power
problems, sometimes the OS freezes, checkdisk reports bad blocks.

I try the drives connected directly to the MoBo IDE connector. No
problems. Smooth as silk.

I presume, at this point, it's a drive bay gone bad. So, I buy some new
drive bays/trays. I've got two of them. I change them both.

Hook the drives up in the new removable bays and BAM! Same problems again.

So, naturally, it seems that the drive bays are at fault because hooked
straight to the motherboard IDE connector these new drives work perfectly.

Anyone else had this problem?

Thanks,
//rus//

 

[Bob]

Sorry if this has been covered. I've been using removable hard drive bays
for years without problems. The design I chose implements a "Centronics"
type connector (looks like a parallel connector for a printer.)

Things are great for years. Then? I buy a couple of new WD hard drives
and then I've then got problems like: One or the other drive not
recognized during POST, sometimes I get clicking by the drives as if power
problems, sometimes the OS freezes, checkdisk reports bad blocks.

I try the drives connected directly to the MoBo IDE connector. No
problems. Smooth as silk.

I presume, at this point, it's a drive bay gone bad. So, I buy some new
drive bays/trays. I've got two of them. I change them both.

Hook the drives up in the new removable bays and BAM! Same problems again.

So, naturally, it seems that the drive bays are at fault because hooked
straight to the motherboard IDE connector these new drives work perfectly.

Anyone else had this problem?

What bay do you have?

Is it ATA compatible with the new HD?

Does it have 80 wires? If not, then it is not ATA.

As one poster has pointed out in other threads, drive bays can be
problematic because they fudge on the ATA standard.

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

 

[Rus]

(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:

What bay do you have?

Is it ATA compatible with the new HD?

Does it have 80 wires? If not, then it is not ATA.

As one poster has pointed out in other threads, drive bays can be
problematic because they fudge on the ATA standard.

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't have any
problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in a removable bay (on
the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each and both drives are
ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's are ATA-133 capable with 80
wire cables. One 120GB drive and one 160GB drive. Both are the "JB"
special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20. Then, I bought
KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

//rus//

 

[Rus]

(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:

What bay do you have?

Is it ATA compatible with the new HD?

Does it have 80 wires? If not, then it is not ATA.

As one poster has pointed out in other threads, drive bays can be
problematic because they fudge on the ATA standard.

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

Just looked at the KF-23. Yep. It's got the same "Centronics" connector.
Does your son have one or two hard drives using those KF-23 bays?

I'm wondering if two ATA's on the same IDE channel can be a problem.

//rus//

 

[Bob]

Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't have any
problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in a removable bay (on
the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each and both drives are
ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's are ATA-133 capable with 80
wire cables. One 120GB drive and one 160GB drive. Both are the "JB"
special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20. Then, I bought
KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

I wonder what would have happened if you put the second drive on the
other IDE cable.

Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel is too much to ask in
terms of ATA compatibility.

I am building a new machine as we speak and I am going to try the
Enermax DynaBacker 3.5" RAID System

http://store.yahoo.com/directron/es352b.html

I did some research with other vendors and they claim the unit works
as advertised - no returns thus far. The thing I like about it is that
I can do backups on the fly and pull the mirror disk to put on the
shelf for disaster recovery. That way I do not have to use the mirror.

IOW, if it works as described in the manual, I can insert a second
drive, build the mirror and then pull the drive. If that doesn't work
then there is a manual backup facility that can be automated on a
daily or weekly basis.

 

[Bob]

NB: I crossposted this to <comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage> so that
some real experts can comment. That's why I included the last post so
they can see what the problem is.

---

The previous post:

Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't have any
problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in a removable bay (on
the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each and both drives are
ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's are ATA-133 capable with 80
wire cables. One 120GB drive and one 160GB drive. Both are the "JB"
special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20. Then, I bought
KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

I wonder what would have happened if you put the second drive on the
other IDE cable.

Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel is too much to ask in
terms of ATA compatibility.

---

The latest post:

Just looked at the KF-23. Yep. It's got the same "Centronics" connector.

Yes, they all do. It's supposedly the 80-wire ribbon connector that
makes it ATA compatible.

Does your son have one or two hard drives using those KF-23 bays?

He only has one. He opted to build the OS on a smaller drive and put a
250GB in the removeable tray. He has other drives with stuff on them
so he bought some extra trays.

I'm wondering if two ATA's on the same IDE channel can be a problem.

Let's see what the experts have to say about this.

I almost went for a dual bay system like yours until I found the
Enermax 352 unit (which uses only one IDE channel).

 

[Rus]

(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:

NB: I crossposted this to <comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage> so that
some real experts can comment. That's why I included the last post so
they can see what the problem is.

--- Snip


I wonder what would have happened if you put the second drive on the
other IDE cable.

The other IDE channel has optical drives on it. I can't say that I want to
d/c those opticals to run a hard drive. The other option there is running a
hard drive and an optical on the same IDE channel. That can bring out other
gremlins and glitches. I've learned the hard way that data is safer and
transfers are faster if I keep hard drives mated with hard drives on the same
IDE channel along with opticals mated with opticals on the same IDE channel.

I've already got a PCI-IDE adapter to run other optical drives as well. Yes,
I've got lots of drives, but, I've got the power to run all of it. PS is 550
watt with 30A on the 12V rail and 18A on the 5V rail. I really don't think
it's a power supply problem because, truthfully, after I connected the drives
straight to the motherboard, there have been no problems whatsoever. Full
surface scans of each drive have been run at least 5 times over the last 2
weeks and no bad blocks. Just pure perfection as long as those removable
drive bays are not incorporated into the configuration.

Oh, I forgot to say, it's gets wierder. I was going crazy trying to figure
out why my computer wouldn't regenerate from a state of hibernation. Lo' and
behold, now that the hard drives are connected straight to the motherboard,
this computer will return from hibernation. With both of those removable
bays connected, the computer reported that it could not establish previous
state when starting up from a state of hibernation.

I triple-boot to W98SE, W2K, and WXP. Both W2K and WXP would fail to return
from "hibernation" with those two removable bays connected. W98SE? I don't
know how it would have responded to "hibernation," because I only use it for
making boot floppies and for hosting PowerQuest DriveImage and Partition
Magic.

Once I ripped out the removable bays and connected the drives straight to the
motherboard, I thought I'd try the hibernate function. Sure enough, removing
the bays fixed my hibernation problems. Computer now hibernates and returns
from hibernation without a glitch. I've used the hibernate state probably 10
to 15 times and it now works perfectly.

Yesterday, however, I tried re-installing the KF-20 drive bays. Immediately,
at first POST, BIOS couldn't find the IDE drives. The POST stalled while
trying to enumerate connected IDE drives. So, I took out the bays, scratched
my head, and Googled the heck out of the internet. Can't say that I've found
any one any where who mentions situations like mine. The only thing I've
found is one KB article at Western Digital which gives very few details.
That KB article says, however, that "it is not uncommon" for removable drive
bays to cause problems.

---

The latest post:


Yes, they all do. It's supposedly the 80-wire ribbon connector that
makes it ATA compatible.

Well, actually, not all of these bays use that "Centronics" connector.
There's a model called KF-101 that uses an internal connector with 64
cavities. (It seems that these model numbers are shared by many of the
Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturers. It's like your KF-23 and my KF-20. The
same designs are sold under a whole bunch of different brand names. I
suspect one factory in Taiwan sells these to all sorts of companies and
brands them accordingly. So, I just happen to be looking at KingWin KF-101
bays at NewEgg, but, I believe the same connector specification would exist
in any removable bay designated as KF-101. And, by the way, I'm not touting
NewEgg. It's just that NewEgg gives some really large detailed views of the
insides and outsides of the drive bays systems they have for sale. I can
examine bays there and see the connectors for most models.)

The KF-101 connector has 64 cavities where each cavity houses a very small
connector pin and each pin is shrouded in it's own cavity of a plastic
enclosure--much like a standard IDE cable arrangement utilizes. That
connector in the KF-101 looks like an IDE or SCSI connector.

There's also a SanMax branded model P96i that utilizes the same 64 pin cavity
connector as the KingWin KF-101.

SanMax is, for some reason I can't figure out, is calling theirs a "96 pin"
connection even though it's a 64 cavity connector. I don't know how they
calculate 96 pin functions into that array unless 80 "pins" are considered to
be the 40 IDE connections with their associated ground wires + 16 utilized
pins for something else involved with the LED's, power, and so forth.

On the other hand, there's your KF-23 and my KF-20 with the "Centronics"
connector. That "Centronics" connector has relatively very large metal
terminals that are in an "open array." Nothing segregates one connector from
the next except an air gap. (The "Centronics" connector is used for parallel
port connectors, SCSI connectors ((slow-SCSI)), and so forth.)

I'm only wondering if some "cross-talk" occurs in those Centronics connectors
on my system? I know that as SCSI got faster, it seems that specs eliminated
the Centronics connector. I'm wondering if I might benefit by eliminating
that Centronics connector in this IDE array?

I'm just wondering if these new WD drives are implementing ATA to the limit
and maybe all my data corruption and drive clicking problems stem from the
incorporation of the "Centronics" connector in these KF-20 bays?

I'm just about to order some removable bays with that "new" 64 cavity
connector to see if that cures my ills. If it does, I'll post in this NG.

I'm hoping, however, someone in the NG community has experienced this before
me and I'm hoping that person will shed some light on this situation before I
waste about $120 U.S. on a bunch of bays/trays that might only going to fail
me again.

He only has one. He opted to build the OS on a smaller drive and put a
250GB in the removeable tray. He has other drives with stuff on them
so he bought some extra trays.


Let's see what the experts have to say about this.

I almost went for a dual bay system like yours until I found the
Enermax 352 unit (which uses only one IDE channel).


Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel is too much to ask in
terms of ATA compatibility.

Yes. I think you are right, at least, in my configuration. One removable
bay causes no apparent problems. I hook up two of them and the thing won't
even POST.

I'll shut up now and see what gets posted. I'm really missing the removable
bays, though.

//rus//

 

[Rod Speed]

That sort of thing isnt that uncommon, essentially because
those removable by systems flout the ATA standard.

When you deliberately flout the standard, all bets are off.

Thats one problem with WD drives, if cable select isnt
used, they have a different jumper config for single drive
on the cable and when there are two drives on the cable.
So you cant necessarily just unplug one drive and keep going.

I wonder what would have happened if you
put the second drive on the other IDE cable.

It'd be better to use SATA removable drive bays that
dont have that problem and dont flout the standard.

Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel
is too much to ask in terms of ATA compatibility.

Its certainly flouting the standard even worse than one.

---

The latest post:

Yes, they all do. It's supposedly the 80-wire
ribbon connector that makes it ATA compatible.

Still flouts the standard.

He only has one. He opted to build the OS on a smaller drive
and put a 250GB in the removeable tray. He has other drives
with stuff on them so he bought some extra trays.

Yes, it flouts the standard even more comprehensively.

Let's see what the experts have to say about this.

I almost went for a dual bay system like yours until I found
the Enermax 352 unit (which uses only one IDE channel).

I'd only use SATA if I had to have a removable bay system.

 

[Bob]

That KB article says, however, that "it is not uncommon" for removable drive
bays to cause problems.

Why do I get the feeling you are experiencing something else, like a
flaky cable?

Is this problem dependent on which OS you bring up?

 

[Bob]

Thats one problem with WD drives, if cable select isnt
used, they have a different jumper config for single drive
on the cable and when there are two drives on the cable.
So you cant necessarily just unplug one drive and keep going.

I was not aware of that. Do you have a reference?

I have used the second disk, the one in the removeable bay, as a slave
only on both IDE channels without any problems. The reason for that is
my CD-RW wants to be a master so I only have slave positions left. I
used the slave setting and not the cable select setting on the drive.
No problems.

However, YMMV. The machine I am using is so old that it's developing a
patina. It's a 500 MHz K6-II with ATA33 IDE. I'd keep it another 6
years if the MB weren't acting up.

 

[Rod Speed]

Why do I get the feeling you are experiencing
something else, like a flaky cable?

Likely because you are psychologically wedded to removable drive bays.

They've always been well known for having problems.

 

[Rod Speed]

I was not aware of that. Do you have a reference?
http://wdc.com/en/library/eide/2579-001037.pdf

I have used the second disk, the one in the removeable bay,
as a slave only on both IDE channels without any problems.

Thats fine, that isnt the situation where the WD
jumper config is a problem. The problem is when
the drive is the only drive on the cable, or one of
a pair, depending on what is in the removable bay.

The reason for that is my CD-RW wants to be a master

You sure it needs to be ?

so I only have slave positions left. I used the slave setting
and not the cable select setting on the drive. No problems.

Thats fine, see above.

However, YMMV. The machine I am using is so old that it's
developing a patina. It's a 500 MHz K6-II with ATA33 IDE.

And thats another reason why you havent seen any problem
with the removable drive bay, that very old cable speed.

Much more of a problem now with modern ATA133
and ATA100 drives used in removable drive bays.

I'd keep it another 6 years if the MB weren't acting up.

I've reported you to the RSPCPPDOSLPTUBD, you'll be soorree...

 

[Bob]

Likely because you are psychologically wedded to removable drive bays.

They are handy contraptions.

They've always been well known for having problems.

That could be said about anything, especially Windows.

We have had no problems with our Directron Kingwin units. I have the
KF-21 and my son has the KF-23. The only difference is mine has 1 fan
and his has 3 fans. But I do not keep a drive in mine for any length
of time - an hour at most. He keeps a drive in his all the time (24x7)
and he still hasn't experienced any problems.

Maybe there is crap out there that does cause problems. You do get
what you pay for. That's why I only shop at Directron where they sell
millions of stuff and know what works and what doesn't.

There is always the possibility that the oriental vendors are dumping
crap on Oz and not on the US.

 

[Bob]

You sure it needs to be ?

That's what Mitrsumi claimed. However, I have a better CD-RW for my
new machine. That old Mitsumi was a piece of crap. I would never buy
their junk again. I specified Teac for the floppy on the new machine -
it cost me a couple of bucks more but it was recommended.

I've reported you to the RSPCPPDOSLPTUBD, you'll be soorree...

I like Legacy.

 

[kony]

We have had no problems with our Directron Kingwin units. I have the
KF-21 and my son has the KF-23. The only difference is mine has 1 fan
and his has 3 fans. But I do not keep a drive in mine for any length
of time - an hour at most. He keeps a drive in his all the time (24x7)
and he still hasn't experienced any problems.

Maybe there is crap out there that does cause problems. You do get
what you pay for. That's why I only shop at Directron where they sell
millions of stuff and know what works and what doesn't.

There is always the possibility that the oriental vendors are dumping
crap on Oz and not on the US.

It was (mayb a couple years ago) Directron where I bought an
earlier Kingwin enclosure- was complete crap and constantly
disconnected. Main issue seems to be generational
revisions, wheither it's a new debugged design or same old
models.

 

[Rod Speed]

They are handy contraptions.

Sure, but they can be done without flouting the standard now
so you get the handy and adhere to the standard at the same time.

That could be said about anything, especially Windows.

Some things arent well known for having problems,
most obviously hard drives where the standards
are observed and you dont let the drive exceed the
manufacturer's specs on stuff like temperature etc.

We have had no problems with our Directron Kingwin units.

You admit that you are only using an ATA33 system with them.

And any flouting of the standard can work at times.
If it didnt ever work, no one would use them.

I have the KF-21 and my son has the KF-23. The only
difference is mine has 1 fan and his has 3 fans. But I
do not keep a drive in mine for any length of time - an
hour at most. He keeps a drive in his all the time (24x7)
and he still hasn't experienced any problems.

And that other individual clearly has seen a problem.

Maybe there is crap out there that does
cause problems. You do get what you pay for.

Its much more complicated than that.

You do see a lot less problems if you dont flout standards.

That's why I only shop at Directron where they sell
millions of stuff and know what works and what doesn't.

Its never possible for any operation to ever know
what results every single one of their customers gets.

And never feasible to work out with a problem observed
how many of them are due to flouting the standard and
how many are due to something else like dud software.

There is always the possibility that the oriental
vendors are dumping crap on Oz and not on the US.

I didnt say that the only problems are seen in Oz.

There's been quite a few reports of problems with
removable drive bays in the US in csipchs alone.

 

[Rod Speed]

That's what Mitrsumi claimed.

Yeah, and they were wrong.

However, I have a better CD-RW for my new machine.

I wouldnt bother with CDRW now, I'd get a DVD burner instead.

That old Mitsumi was a piece of crap.

Yeah, they were pretty bad.

I would never buy their junk again.

You said you wouldnt buy serial #1 again too |-)

I specified Teac for the floppy on the new machine - it
cost me a couple of bucks more but it was recommended.

I dont bother with floppy drives anymore. Dont
even bother to install one in most PCs I assemble.

And I've had teac floppy drives fail too.

I like Legacy.

Your likes are irrelevant.

 

[Rus]

(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:

Why do I get the feeling you are experiencing something else, like a
flaky cable?

Changed the cable. Twice. Brand new shrink wrapped cables. All cables 80
wire 40 pin with one blue connector all within ATA specs.

Is this problem dependent on which OS you bring up?

Nope. It's OS independent. Don't even need to get to an OS. Problems often
begin at POST.

When I make it past the POST, both W2K and WXP experience freezes during data
transfer to the drive. (I triple boot W98SE, W2K, and WXP. I don't use
W98SE much except for making boot floppies and for hosting PowerQuest
DriveImage and Partition Magic. I function mainly within W2K and WXP.
Problems with data transfer occurred in both W2K and WXP.)

//rus//

 

[CBFalconer]

(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote

Changed the cable. Twice. Brand new shrink wrapped cables. All
cables 80 wire 40 pin with one blue connector all within ATA specs.

Maybe that's the problem. 80 wire cable allow higher speed, and
thus touchier, operation. If you use a 40 pin cable operation will
back down to the less touchy speeds.

--
Some informative links:
http://www.geocities.com/nnqweb/

http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

 

[kony]

Maybe that's the problem. 80 wire cable allow higher speed, and
thus touchier, operation. If you use a 40 pin cable operation will
back down to the less touchy speeds.

_IF_ that's the problem, there may be a utility from the
drive manufacturer which can force a lower transfer rate (if
not the board's bios settings) while continuing to have the
better noise rejection of the 80 conductor cable.