Preserving DV Quality: NTSC and AV-DVI

G

Guest

Hello, experts...

Our family purchased a DV camcorder last year and I have been slowly trying
to do more sophisticated things using MM.

Since we didn't own a DVD player initially, I had recorded all video using
the High Quality NTSC option in MM. I edited and watched movies on our
computer and burned it to VCDs. The quality was fuzzy, but otherwise fine.

More recent movies made in MM appear much more pixelated and blurry than
those I made last year. I am using the same computer to record and edit the
video. When the camcorder is connected directly to the television, the
original digital video quality is excellent.

I don't know what might account for the observed deterioration in quality of
movies made in MM, but I need to find a way to preserve high quality movies
for my family. After combing through the archives of this site, it appears
that the best way to preserve high quality DV footage from a camcorder is to
record and burn to DVD in DV-AVI format.

If that's the case, I have a couple questions:

1) My hard drive disk space only has 7 GB left. Can I free up space to
have 14 GB available to record (and edit) an hour of DV-AVI footage or should
I buy an external drive?

2) What type of DVD burner should I get so that we view them with an older
DVD player? It appears there are multiple DVD formats...

3) Is there any way to capture DV footage using the "High Quality NTSC"
option and watch it in full screen mode on the computer without all the
pixelation/distortion?

Thanks!
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

Yes, using the DV-AVI format is best to preserve the quality from your
camcorder tape.

Not only do you need about 13 GB of space for a captured one hour tape,
you'll need another 13 GB to hold the saved movie, and more space for some
working elbow room.... 30 GB free is still on the tight side.

An external drive would work... as long as you have a USB2 or firewire
connection for it... firewire is probably better but USB2 works also.

As we look back on older videos, using better computers and screens, the
lower quality is more apparent... there's no way to recover it once lost...
so keep all your originals. And when you make a high quality movie that goes
to a DVD, copy it to a digital camcorder tape too for a higher quality copy
than the DVD.
--
PapaJohn
Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website - http://www.papajohn.org

tips and tricks: http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693

Online Newsletters: http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx
 
A

Al Stu

"keep all your originals."
"copy it to a digital camcorder tape too for a higher quality copy than the
DVD."

But don't rely on DV tape as an archive. I have read in forums at
CamcorderInfo.com that storage density on DV tape is being pushed so tight
they can start losing data within as little as a year or two. I have no
personal experience of this though as I don't use DV tapes for archives, but
rather archive all footage in DV-AVI format and completed Movie Maker
projects to data DVD +R. At no more than a buck fifty each it's also very
cost effective, even cheaper than tape, unless buying el-cheep-o tapes, and
who would trust that with an archive.
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

My tapes are currently running about $2.75 each for Maxells in an 8 pack at
Sam's Club. It can take a full hour of DV-AVI, while you would need 3 data
DVDs for an hour of DV-AVI files... so your buck-fifty times 3 gets you over
the price of a tape.

Yup, we read of the breakdown of tapes, discs, and everything else... more
backups is always better... so far my wedding tapes have lasted longer than
the marriages...

Most people don't do backups, so any form of backing up is a big step
forward.
--
PapaJohn
Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website - http://www.papajohn.org

tips and tricks: http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693

Online Newsletters: http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx
 
A

Al Stu

"so far my wedding tapes have lasted longer than the marriages..."

This does not surprise me, especially if they are of your marriages.

$2.75 vs. $4.50 maximum for 5x the life span, and random accessibility to
boot.
 
W

Wojo

Or for goodness sake (in case there are children present)
Your both right ok?!?!?
If the footage is important save it in as many format's as you are
financially able to do, simple as that.
-Wojo
 
E

eeyore

While I hesitate to get involved, and some of what I am raising is
spelling out things implied by previous posts, here goes:

This is long the summary would be
.. I use DVD and am happy with it but the process requires some self
management
.. Tape may well be the way to go for most people, though I consider they
should perform very regular archive renewal ie copy it to the PC and out
to new tapes every 2-4 years)




I take archiving and backup very seriously (though I stress I do not
claim to be an expert). All data on my PC is kept off the C drive and is
backed up or archived and stored on site for easy access and off site in
case of loss of PC.

My normal documents etc are backed up (ie a copy is retained for a time
then turned over as my data changes). My video and photos and projects
are archived to two copies. I am a home family videoer and therefore
only produce 2 gb of photos and 10 hours of DV per year. I archive as i
go. Video is archived as DV-AVI Type II.

Issues I considered in choosing an archive media were:
1. Media reliability - ie how long can the media be expected to last if
kept in good environmental conditions.
2. Environment - giving the media its best chance to meet its
specifications. This related to was it possible to find a place at low
cost and would I know if it was safe.
3. Media compatibility - I intend to have this stuff available when my
children are twenty on and preferably when their children are twenty
one. - beyond that who knows. The PC is now 30 odd years old and I don't
know what I would do with a 5.25 disk if I needed to get to it today.
4. File compatibility - similar to the above, but related to file
formats and software to read them
5. Ease of use

Media Reliability:
I archive to DVD only as I trust the optical media more than magnetic
tape. There are just too many magnetic interference sources around and
gradual degradation could result in absolute failure of sections.
The same is true for DVD, however with DVD it is a question of quality,
with DV tapes it is inherent in the media.
I have not seen a claim of true (100 years)archival quality for mini DV
tapes. Mag tape solutions solutions that do make those claims are
typically for professional movie houses $120 per hour or more and
specify an environment we could not afford.I used Japanese produced TDKs
until they ceased to be available in my local stores and now use
verbatims......and I check the digital marks to assure myself (as best
as possible) that they are genuine.

Environment:
Both archives are stored in a cool, dry environment with limited air
movement, in protective sleeves. This maximises the media reliability.
This is the best I can do. With DV tapes i concluded that I could not
create a reliable interference free zone where I was able to store my
archive - I could not test and I store archive 2 at my in-laws...while I
can seal the box from atmospheric changes i could not see how to prevent
speakers or any electrical source operating near by. With magnetic media
even a small source can impact over a long period.

Renewal: If I used tape I would consider regeneration very 2 years or
so. With DVD I still intend to consider this every 10 years. More to
ensure ongoing compatibility of storage media and of file formats.

Ease of use: I have no doubts that using minidv is an easier process.
For the originals you just store them away and for movie development you
basically set it and let it go for an hour per hour of movie.Use of
DVD's is more complex and more time consuming for the user.

In the end I prefer DVD but I run with a relatively complex process and
I have a well controlled process. Most people would probably consider it
onerous and not keep it up.

Tape may well be the way to go for most people, though I consider they
should perform very regular archive renewal ie copy it to the PC and out
to new tapes every 2-4 years)



Rob
 
A

Al Stu

And another thing, if you archive to DVD's don't write on them or stick a
label on them as this can be detrimental to their data retention. Protect
the top, label side, of the disc as this is where the data is actually
stored. Damage to the mfg's label is likely to result in data loss.
Scratches etc. on the other side can usually be buffed out as it's just
clear plastic carrier for the media which is actually on the other side
under the mfg's label. Sort of like the case of a cassette tape.
 
E

eeyore

Hi PapaJohn
Here is my process:
1. I copy from the camera using windv - Large clips broken up into 5
minute lots (1GB approx)to DV-AVI Type II
2. I run quickly through the start of each movie to ensure it is OK - at
this point I delte any short clips that are rubbish. long clips I leave.
3. I organise the source into directories named by the date of download
and of 1 dvd size each. (The reason is I want my MM projects to
identify the dvd's that may need to be recovered, and I maintain a table
of contents document with which is cumulative - this is stored on every
DVD - that way I can always find what footage I need by looking up the
document on the latest DVD)
4. I archive the DV-AVI II footage to two DVD's each. Note it is
unprocessed at this stage. The ones I keep at home are marked with a CD
pen... the Diaster Recovery ones are marked on the sleeves only. I then
take them to my in-laws place.
5. I then commence assembling projects - Projects and resulting DV-AVI
movies are seperate from the source and are backed/up/archived
seperately. I only archive the resulting movies for particularly complex
movies (involving more than twenty source elements or some major fixes
to any footage (eg deshaking or contrast repairs) - otherwise if I need
to recover the movie I will recover the project and source.
6. When I have enough resulting movies for a DVD I cut a playable DVD
using Nero. I use the same DVD's as I archive with - they play on all
dvd players I have except my old sony.

At the end of this process I should have:
2 backups of the source in data format
1 backed up copy of the MM2 projects which are directly refencable to
the dvd archive files - ie the directory name and file name reference to
the dvd name and file name
1 copy of the dvd playable version.

I use data dvd's for all actions.

I buy what I regard as the best Data dvd's.

I check each batch of 50 to ensure codes are consistent with
manufacturere ID's

I cut the DVD's at 2x - though my burner works at 8x

The first set of DVD's I cut in each batch are checked for CRC errors
using DVDinfopro. If I have errors I take em back and get a refund. I
have never had any issues with TDK or Verbatim (but I did learn the hard
way and I dropped the TDK's when my local store ceased supplying the
Japanese produced dvd's). One of the problems I have is that it is hard
to get good DVD's since most people are actually using them to copy
movies and are not actually looking to archive data - so they want cheap
rather than longevity.

I always run Nero with verify on - it takes a lot longer, but it isnt as
if i'm sitting there waiting anyway.

As you can see above i take it quite seriously. Working in IT I
understand nothing is perfect, but I do the best i can to ensure I am
protected.

If I lose my software its only money and time - if I lose my data,
photos or movies I can't recover them.





Rob
 
A

Al Stu

Posting something of such detail in here though it might be a good idea to
attach a copyright notice to it, don't you think? ;-)
 
G

Guest

Thanks for the advice. I have bookmarked the posts so that I can refer to
them as I continue to make home movies.

Since the post I invested in some hardware and now have the resources to
capture video in AVI Type II format.

I wasn't able to store captured video on my external drive using MM. The
default was my C: drive and I couldn't locate where to change this. I tried
using Nero 6, which allows me to direct the captured AVI file to my roomy
external drive.

My current problem is that the movie editing software for Nero (Nero Vision
Express 3) doesn't play the captured video continuously. Thus, as I play the
video and decide where to split frames, the video shows still frames every
second or so. Audio, however, plays continuously. I didn't have this
problem in MM.
 
E

eeyore

Hi Luddite
You may be experiencing performance problems due to the drive connection
being USB rather than SATA or IDE.
Is there any reason why you dont use MM? Once the files are saved as
DV-AVI you can use MM to create a movie from them.

Rob
 
G

Guest

Thanks for the post, Rob.

I am capturing the video with a firewire connection, and my laptop is
connected to the external drive through a USB 2.0 port.

The captured video plays perfectly in Real Player, so I doubt the problem
resides with the AVI file itself. When I try to edit it in MM (and Nero
Vision Express 3) I run into problems because the video is either choppy or
lags the audio. In MM, the video will sometimes not advance or it will
display video clips from several scenes prior. It makes me think that
somehow my computer lacks the capacity to edit AVI files, regardless of the
editing software package used.

I have 512 RAM and a Pentium 1.4 Centrino processor, which I would think
would be enough...
 
E

eeyore

Your PC is above the low spec, but slightly lower than the recommended
spec for MM. This means it is marginal. Even hi spec machines can run
into trouble...it depends what else is running - ie what MM/Nero is
actually competing with. It also depends on how complex (and how many)
effects/transitions are applied.

That realplayer when playing is ok doesnt actually surprise me.....it
needs less resources as it is playing without any adjustment of the
movie. Even with no effect added playing from the timeline in MM can be
expected to have some overheads due to MM being an editor rather than a
player.

Even a simple effect moves MM utilisation on my 1.7 GHZ from 40% to 70%
and uses significant RAM.

I am running MM on a 1.7 GHZ P4 with 1 GB of RAM....the top 512 is very
seldom used by anything so it will certainly run fine on my spec machine.

It would be useful to get the experience of others in this group on low
end machines.

Without seeing your pc it is difficult to help but I believe the best
you can do is to ensure the PC is running as effectively as possible - I
remember there are past posts on this group about some techniques. The
ones I use are:

1. Minimise the applications and services that the software is competing
with
(ie shut down unwanted services that may be using RAM or competing for
CPU cycles.

An example site is
http://www.jasonn.com/turning_off_unnecessary_services_on_windows_xp

I would only turn off the services you are very comfortable (eg if you
don't have any wireless then turning off the wireless config services is
ok). Some people have recommended turning off the virus scanner while
working with MM - I don't do this myself (as I am always on line and
will actually do other things while my movies are rendering _ though
others would also recommend against this.

Dont run other applications at the same time. ie don't rune explorer or
mail (or news :))

2. Defragment your drives if you havent already done this. Keep them
defragmented with sufficient space to allow the AVI's to be stored as a
contiguos file.

3. If you have the space try the AVI on your IDE drive - you don't need
to store them there permanently....only while actually editing - the
transfer rate of USB 2.0 is at best about 1/4 that of IDE/ata -100 and
while IDE frequently approaches its specified performance, the same is
not always true for USB. It may be that this is a straw breaking a
camels back.

I'm sorry I cant help any more than this but let me know how you get on.

Another more radical alternative is to follow in the path of your
namesakes :).


Rob
 
G

Guest

Thanks so much for the advice.

I took the advice from other posts and closed all applications when editing,
save for MM. I can free some space on my C: drive and I will try that
suggestion next. I will look into boosting the RAM. This would be easy for
me to do on a desktop, but a laptop is an entirely different animal.
 
A

Al Stu

Three things that will help your 1.4 GHz Centrino system play video better
in MM.

1) Set the Power Scheme to "Always On". Would be nice if MM would do this
automatically while 'actively' being used. (remember to set it back when
finished with MM).
2) Defrag the disk drive.
3) 7200 RPM disk drive.

I also have 1.4 GHz Centrino with 512 MB RAM & 7200 RPM disk drive. If you
have a slower disk drive that will also impact MM performance significantly.
Hitachi has a new 100 Gig 7200 RPM drive for notebooks out now. That will
be in my next system for sure.
 
E

eeyore

Hi Luddite
I just thought of something else....I used to do this and still do
sometimes when rendering a long movie:

while moviemaker is running do this

<contrl><alt><del> - this enables task manager
go to [processes] tab
<right mouse click> on process moviemk.exe
<set priority> - above normal - this gives it higher priority for
resources against the other processes running on your PC.

see if Moviemaker is running better

This is only a temporary fix... next time you start MM2 it will come
back as normal. If it works you will need to set the priority every time
you run moviemaker.
 

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