[PL] PL2005 Ware Issues

[Susan Bugher]

I agree. I just gave v 1.93 a quick trial. *One* Nagscreen => Nagware -
this app is guilty on multiple counts.

"sort messages" - 5 options shown, 1 "option" is available
"View messages" - 7 options shown, 1 "option" is available
"empty trash" - is unavailable

I went back once again through the v193 tonight. There is one detail
I noticed this time, and it applies to both v193 and v20. The menus
that have disabled commands, there is a small advance sign. There is
a tiny dot on all thos menus that are not functional, and instead
existing for promotional purposes. So, to an extent, you could start
looking for dots when you view what choices you have. Then, sometimes
you will need to fold out menus a couple of levels, before arriving
at the dots that signify where things are crippled.

and often when you get through folding out the menu - *all* options are
unavailable. It's a real challenge to find things that you can do. . .

http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download-all.php

The choices there are Agent 2.0 · Build 652 and Agent 1.93

Neither one is acceptable for nomination. Neither version belongs on the
Ware ballot. That is for *borderline* cases.

If someone wants to recommend a last freeware version now is the time to
do it. We're not voting for memories of what used to be. The version
*must* be available for download.

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

May be removed from the *Nominations* list. The version currently listed
in the program description is Nagware and Crippleware.
Will be on the Ware ballot.

C4U - Spyware

NetLaunch, Trillian and C4U will be placed on the Ware ballot *if*
someone posts a request for inclusion.

If anyone feels other programs are unsuitable post a request to have the
apps included on the Ware Ballot.


Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

Outlook Express revisited. . .

The Pricelessware list is a list of "the best of the best" programs that
are available for download. IMO it is not possible to specify a download
for Outlook Express.

The initial difficulty - AFAICT OE6 can only be installed by downloading
and *installing* Internet Explorer6.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/newsgroupsetup.mspx (March
20, 2001)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/support/newsgroups/howto.mspx
(August 27, 2001

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/smartdisplay/using/newsgroups/setup.mspx
(January 8, 2003)

<q>
Launch Outlook Express, which is installed with Windows XP. You may be
asked if you want to make Outlook Express your default e-mail program.
If you haven't installed Windows XP, you can download Outlook Express
from the Microsoft Internet Explorer Downloads page. (You will need to
download and install Internet Explorer 5.5 or higher.)
</q>

Version 6 is listed in our program description (the link is different:

http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/microsoft/ie/6.0/
<q>
These are full installers for Internet Explorer 6. They are available
as 4 different downloads

ie6all.zip 29-Aug-2001 13:49 47.3M ZIP archive
ie6win2k.zip 29-Aug-2001 13:50 11.6M ZIP archive
ie6win98me.zip 29-Aug-2001 13:52 29.5M ZIP archive
ie6winnt.zip 29-Aug-2001 13:53 21.9M ZIP archive
</q>

Notice the date. Should we specify a version of OE that does not have
the latest patches? Should we specifiy SP2 as the download?

IMO we should simply recognize that it is not possible to specify a
download for OE alone and *therefore* it should not be a Pricelessware
selection.

Susan

 

[Roger Johansson]

IMO we should simply recognize that it is not possible to specify a
download for OE alone and *therefore* it should not be a Pricelessware
selection.

OE can be downloaded, installed and used for free.
That makes it freeware.

You may need to update IE first to use the microsoft updating system.

How, exactly, the downloading and installing happens is a technical issue
which has nothing to do with its status as freeware or not freeware.
Even if you cannot specify a certain file to download there is a way to
find, download and install OE which most people are capable of using.

Windows is an operating system. OE is an optional part of that OS, or an
add-on to the operating system, which is freeware for all users of
windows.

Windows media player and the kernel toys are in the same category,
optional parts of windows which you can download, install and use for
free. Or you can see it as freeware add-ons from microsoft for their
operating system, if you like.

 

[Bjorn Simonsen]

Regarding v1.93 FA. See: <[email protected]>.

A interface problem here made me not catch the full text
of your very recent message about this!

Bjorn, also see: <[email protected]>

Right, when browsin (not reading from beginning to end) this - my own
- message the other day I figured I was talking *onlyÆ about v2 there,
but I was not. Sorry - and thanks

You could go back and look at FA again if you wanted [...]

Thanks for the tip and how-to. I don't have time to play with this
now, so I'll take both your and Susan's (and my own past <g>) word for
it now.

All the best,
Bjorn Simonsen

 

[Sietse Fliege]

OE can be downloaded, installed and used for free.
That makes it freeware.

Not so!
AFAIK, you can download and install OE, but only as an update to the
version that already got installed when Windows was installed.
AFAIK, OE is part of Windows, or at least: OE comes with Windows for
which you paid, and you can optionally update it.
You paid for the whole Windows packet (incl. optional updates).
You cannot say that you got OE for free and paid for the rest.

You may need to update IE first to use the microsoft updating system.

How, exactly, the downloading and installing happens is a technical
issue which has nothing to do with its status as freeware or not
freeware. Even if you cannot specify a certain file to download there
is a way to find, download and install OE which most people are
capable of using.

Windows is an operating system. OE is an optional part of that OS, or
an add-on to the operating system, which is freeware for all users of
windows.

Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAIK OE is a mandatory part of Windows.
It gets installed when you install Windows and you cannot uninstall it.
But even if it were optional, you cannot say that you got OE for free
and paid for the rest. Ergo, OE is not freeware.

Windows media player and the kernel toys are in the same category,
optional parts of windows which you can download, install and use for
free. Or you can see it as freeware add-ons from microsoft for their
operating system, if you like.

I believe that Media Player and OE are in about the same category.
I believe that they both get installed whether you like it or not.
They are not even in the same category as optional installs, like those
that appear in your Add/Remove applet.
But even those are not freeware. You cannot say that you didn't pay for
e.g. Paint or Windows Calculator.

Kernel Toys belong to yet another category, that is freeware indeed
(apart from an eventual EULA issue).

I argue that Windows Calculator, which comes with Windows as an optional
install, is *not* freeware, but that the improved (!) Power Toy
calculator *is* freeware.

 

[Susan Bugher]

OE can be downloaded, installed and used for free.

Windows media player and the kernel toys are in the same category,
optional parts of windows which you can download, install and use for
free.

Those are separate downloads that can be specified. There is no
*stand-alone* download and install for Outlook Express. Internet
Explorer must also be downloaded and installed.

"IE 5 Web Accessories" - PW2004
download: (pwrtwks.exe) (129 KB)
http://download.microsoft.com/download/ie5/Utility/1/W9XNT4MeXP/EN-US/pwrtwks.exe


"IE 5 Web Accessories" - PW2004
download: (ie5wa.exe) (134 KB)
http://download.microsoft.com/download/ie5/Utility/1/W98NT42KMeXP/EN-US/ie5wa.exe


Windows Media Player
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/download/download.aspx
I can't list all the downloads because: "Setup detected that you are
running: Windows 98" but here's one:
Windows Media Player 9 Series (for Windows 98 SE, Me, and 2000)
Total Size: 13,300 KB 62 min @ 28.8 Kbps

If a PL selection becomes $ware it is kept on the PL *if* *and* *only*
*if* there is a last freeware version available for download. If the app
*can't* be downloaded it's removed from the PL. Emacs is freeware. Emacs
has been nominated several times for the PL *but* - no one has ever been
able to specify a download.

IMO the download test applies to all apps. If we can't specify a
download the app does not belong on the PL.

IMO a Pricelessware candidate has to satisfy *all* these requirements,
not just one or two:

1. Freeware or almost Freeware (Liteware, Donationware etc.)
2. "the best of the best"
3. available for download

Susan

 

[Roger Johansson]

IMO a Pricelessware candidate has to satisfy *all* these requirements,
not just one or two:

1. Freeware or almost Freeware (Liteware, Donationware etc.)
2. "the best of the best"
3. available for download

OE _is_ available for all windows users, even if it may be difficult to
specify it as a certain file download at a certain server.
Exactly how the updating/installing system works is not essential, the
important facts here are that this program is available and it is free.

From the perspective of the user it is freeware just as any other
freeware program for windows operating system.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

AFAIK, you can download and install OE, but only as an update to
the version that already got installed when Windows was installed.
AFAIK, OE is part of Windows, or at least: OE comes with Windows
for which you paid, and you can optionally update it.
You paid for the whole Windows packet (incl. optional updates).

Right. Windows/IE/OE/etc all comes with a single licence, which you
have to pay for.

You cannot say that you got OE for free and paid for the rest.

Oh, they do say it. As I understand it, it's the crux of their
argument that they only paid for part of the software bundle and the
rest was free somehow.

Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAIK OE is a mandatory part of
Windows. It gets installed when you install Windows and you cannot
uninstall it.

It does get installed along with the rest of the Windows components,
but with Windows XP you do have the option of uninstalling OE (not IE)
via the control panel. I have no idea how thorough the OE uninstall
is.

But even if it were optional, you cannot say that
you got OE for free and paid for the rest. Ergo, OE is not
freeware.

Yeah.

 

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

If a PL selection becomes $ware it is kept on the PL *if* *and* *only*
*if* there is a last freeware version available for download. If the app
*can't* be downloaded it's removed from the PL. Emacs is freeware. Emacs
has been nominated several times for the PL *but* - no one has ever been
able to specify a download.

How about NotGNU:

http://www.notgnu.org

| NotGNU is a freeware, user-friendly, emacs-style text editor -- similar
| to GNU Emacs but much smaller and lighter, with a Windows look and feel.
[...]
| This product is freeware.

It could be some kind of compensation for the real thing, can't it? And:
No. This is *not* a nomination. ;-)

BeAr

 

[Roger Johansson]

From the perspective of the user it is freeware just as any other

freeware program for windows operating system.

Think about the user and what situation he is in.
When he searches the lists at Pricelessware sites he wants to know what
alternatives he has. He wants a very good program for mail/news, and he
wants to know what free alternatives he can choose from.

Among other freeware programs he can download and install he also have
the choice of getting/updating OE from MS.

If we see this voting as a service for other people we should include the
best choices they actually have.
OE is one of the choices in the mail/news category.

 

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Oh, they do say it. As I understand it, it's the crux of their
argument that they only paid for part of the software bundle and the
rest was free somehow.

Same with me. I once paid for the Windows calculator. (Had to do some
quick computations.) And somehow I got a whole free OS included. Thought
me very happy, that day... ;-)

BeAr

 

[Susan Bugher]

If we see this voting as a service for other people we should include the
best choices they actually have.

Agree. That means giving them a file name, file size and a download page
or link where they can download the version of the program that we
recommend.

IMO telling them they must figure out these petty details for themselves
is not much of a service.

Susan

 

[omega]

Outlook Express revisited. . .

The Pricelessware list is a list of "the best of the best" programs that
are available for download. IMO it is not possible to specify a download
for Outlook Express.

The initial difficulty - AFAICT OE6 can only be installed by downloading
and *installing* Internet Explorer6.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/newsgroupsetup.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/support/newsgroups/howto.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/smartdisplay/using/newsgroups/setup.mspx

In case some are not familiar with the process, I took screenshots, on
my W98 + MSIE 5.5 system, of how it goes when one seeks to get hold of
Outlook Express 6.

http://www.redshift.com/~omega/clips/msoe/install.htm

IMO we should simply recognize that it is not possible to specify a
download for OE alone and *therefore* it should not be a Pricelessware
selection.

We have a deck of solid, overlapping arguments why MSOE is not a true
freeware entity, and that is a major one. Essentially, or at minimum by
its legal definition, MSOE as a standalone product, does not exist. It
is a component of a browser suite that is a component of a (commercial)
operating system.

http://www.redshift.com/~omega/clips/msoe/license.txt

 

[Roger Johansson]

Agree. That means giving them a file name, file size and a download
page or link where they can download the version of the program that we
recommend.

What is needed is an advice to the user. Instead of a download url you
can write: Available through windows update system, through Internet
Explorer-update menu.

IMO telling them they must figure out these petty details for
themselves is not much of a service.

That is why I think an explanation instead of a download url is useful
information to the user in this case.

 

[jo]

What is needed is an advice to the user. Instead of a download url you
can write: Available through windows update system, through Internet
Explorer-update menu.


That is why I think an explanation instead of a download url is useful
information to the user in this case.

We could point them to C:\Program Files if they are having difficulty
finding the app.

 

[omega]

IMO we should simply recognize that it is not possible to specify a
download for OE alone and *therefore* it should not be a Pricelessware
selection.

We have a deck of solid, overlapping arguments why MSOE is not a true
freeware entity, and that is a major one. [...]

Apologies to have misrepresented your words Susan. Let me try to straighten
it out now.... To support removal of OE from Pricelessware, one agrees with
at least one, and not even necessarily both, of the positions.

Premise: Pricelessware represents a list of downloadable freeware.

Issues: 1. There exists no download file for OE.
or/and
2. OE is not a true freeware.

 

[omega]

We could point them to C:\Program Files if they are having difficulty
finding the app.

ROFL!


.. . .
(No problem, when in ACF discussions, that those sorts of helper tips come
in. A whole separate matter is to push to have parts of the Windows OS on a
"Best of Freeware" list.)

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

<news:[email protected]>:

Think about the user and what situation he is in.
When he searches the lists at Pricelessware sites he wants to know
what alternatives he has. He wants a very good program for
mail/news, and he wants to know what free alternatives he can
choose from.

Among other freeware programs he can download and install he also
have the choice of getting/updating OE from MS.

If he has already paid for the OE licence, he can. Otherwise not.

If we see this voting as a service for other people we should
include the best choices they actually have.

The choices offered by the PL were never meant to include the
upgrade choices for software already bought.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

In case some are not familiar with the process, I took
screenshots, on my W98 + MSIE 5.5 system, of how it goes when one
seeks to get hold of Outlook Express 6.

http://www.redshift.com/~omega/clips/msoe/install.htm

Thanks again!