[PL] 2004 Removals

J

jason

omega said:
Redistribution, would that have normal English meaning? If so, it is
permissible to download or otherwise receive a PCMag utility from
someone else. Only prohibition is upon the distributer, not the
distributee.

Yup, all it states in the license agreement is it's prohibited to
DISTRIBUTE it. It's the people hosting the software that need to worry.
But I maintain people who operate sites like Pricelessware could be at
risk, especially when they're on record as saying they KNOW and UNDERSTAND
the legal status of PC Mag utilities, and that they furthermore know the
links on their site point to ILLEGAL HOLDINGS of PC Mag software.

So I say...better safe than sorry. :)
 
B

Bjorn Simonsen

Susan Bugher wrote in said:
The PL2004 Nominations page will be on the Pricelessware site after the
election. That page will be used by some people as a guide to programs
that are worth further investigation.

Spyware, Adware and commercial programs are not permitted on the
Pricelessware list. I disqualified some nominations that IMO were not
*clearly* not suitable because I did not want them to remain on the
nominations page.

If we place programs on the acceptable/ unacceptable ballot and the
program does not receive a second it amy not come to a vote.

Any suggestions on the best procedure to handle this kind of problem in
the future?

Assuming I have understood your question: If a program is suggest for
the acceptable/unacceptable ballot, but NOT voted out there, then as a
rule of thumb I suggest you leave it on the nomination page. On the
other hand this is also clearly a case where admin discretion is
called for. Example: Say someone suggested program X for the
acceptable/unacceptable ballot, but no one else found the time or
cared to check it out, or they simply forget to vote about it. And
lets say that you as a admin find that program X does not qualify as
*freeware* in any meaningful sense of the word, or that you find it is
*possibly harmful - contains spyware* etc, then you should be allowed
to remove it from the nomination page. But to avoid any future
conflicts about it - it would be best if you posted a note about here
in a.c.f. If no one objects, fine. If anyone objects at a later time,
you can refer them your previous FYI announcement about it - and
handle the later objection(s) there and then (like ask group for
input, suggest a vote for/against program X etc)

All the best,
Bjorn Simonsen
 
S

Susan Bugher

Bjorn said:
Assuming I have understood your question: If a program is suggest for
the acceptable/unacceptable ballot, but NOT voted out there, then as a
rule of thumb I suggest you leave it on the nomination page. On the
other hand this is also clearly a case where admin discretion is
called for. Example: Say someone suggested program X for the
acceptable/unacceptable ballot, but no one else found the time or
cared to check it out, or they simply forget to vote about it. And
lets say that you as a admin find that program X does not qualify as
*freeware* in any meaningful sense of the word, or that you find it is
*possibly harmful - contains spyware* etc, then you should be allowed
to remove it from the nomination page. But to avoid any future
conflicts about it - it would be best if you posted a note about here
in a.c.f. If no one objects, fine. If anyone objects at a later time,
you can refer them your previous FYI announcement about it - and
handle the later objection(s) there and then (like ask group for
input, suggest a vote for/against program X etc)

The main question is pretty simple:

Should a program that is *not* eligible to be *on* the Pricelessware
List because:

it is not free or
it is Spyware or
it is Adware

be eligible for *nomination* *to* the Pricelessware List?

IOW - Should such nominations be thrown out (when the evidence is clear)?

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
B

Bjorn Simonsen

Susan Bugher wrote in said:
The main question is pretty simple:
IOW - Should such nominations be thrown out (when the evidence is clear)?

A simple question with a IMHO rather obvious answer - yes. Assuming
you post a short "removed" note about it in the nomination thread, to
give people the opportunity to object, say if anyone thinks the
evidence is not so clear or have been misinterpreted. Got the
impression this is in fact how you have handled it so far, although I
did not re-read all past messages in the nomination thread now to
check :)

All the best,
Bjorn Simonsen
 
S

Susan Bugher

Bjorn said:
A simple question with a IMHO rather obvious answer - yes. Assuming
you post a short "removed" note about it in the nomination thread, to
give people the opportunity to object, say if anyone thinks the
evidence is not so clear or have been misinterpreted. Got the
impression this is in fact how you have handled it so far, although I
did not re-read all past messages in the nomination thread now to
check :)

Yes, that is how I've been handling it. If there are any objections to
doing it this way I'd like to hear them. IOW - just checking.

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
D

DAN

Susan said:
The main question is pretty simple:
Should a program that is *not* eligible to be *on* the Pricelessware
List because:
it is not free or
it is Spyware or
it is Adware
be eligible for *nomination* *to* the Pricelessware List?
IOW - Should such nominations be thrown out (when the evidence is clear)?

Susan

in one word, Yes. There is no point in wasting everyone's time on a piece of sw
that can't make it.

One possible solution could be to have a separate page "was nominated but did
not qualify", but a) the workload is prolly not worth it, and b) that would be
inviting spam-nominations.


There is one case which could deserve a special mention: the progs that are free
but can no longer be easily accessed for free, like for ex the PCmag utils.
Could be worth mentioning that "this util was PL while it was freely available",
in case you can get your hands on a copy. But again I am not sure you need more
work. And we'd get one step closer to "advocating warez", which nobody wants.

DAN
 
S

Susan Bugher

The results of the acceptable-unacceptable ballots were:

40tude Dialog: yes - acceptable 28
40tude Dialog: no - unacceptable 13

Desktop Architect: yes - acceptable 14
Desktop Architect: no - unacceptable 7

ePrompter: yes - acceptable 16
ePrompter: no - unacceptable 10

KaZaA Lite: yes - acceptable 13
KaZaA Lite: no - unacceptable 29

Trillian: yes - acceptable 16
Trillian: no - unacceptable 10

-----------

Based on the above voting KaZaA Lite was *disqualified* for PL2004.

-----------

Objections have been raised to the inclusion of MyIE2 on the
Pricelessware list.

To date a nag screen has been one of the *automatic* disqualifiers for
the Pricelessware list.

MyIE2 is nagware. This was *not* noted in the *ware* description that
was furnished.

As I understand it: The program has a nag screen that includes an option
to shut it off after one initial viewing. *Some* people are seeing the
nag screen multiple times despite choosing the "do not show again" option.

If the *facts* are in dispute please post a correction.

21 people voted in favor of MYIE2. If an equal or greater number of
people find it unacceptable the program will be disqualified.

If you think MYIE2 should be disqualified please post in this thead with:

MYIE2: no - unacceptable

in your message.

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
M

My Name

MemLoad (Process Monitor: Memory) 8 (won)
RAMpage (Process Monitor: Memory) 7 (out)
[snip]

The usefulness of "recovering memory" is controversial.
People should have a hearty reading about limited resources
in Win9x and WinMe. I would like to put in a negative vote
for both of these.

I know it is controversial, but I'm inclined to agree with you.
 
S

Spacey Spade

The results of the acceptable-unacceptable ballots were:

40tude Dialog: yes - acceptable 28
40tude Dialog: no - unacceptable 13

Desktop Architect: yes - acceptable 14
Desktop Architect: no - unacceptable 7

ePrompter: yes - acceptable 16
ePrompter: no - unacceptable 10

KaZaA Lite: yes - acceptable 13
KaZaA Lite: no - unacceptable 29

Trillian: yes - acceptable 16
Trillian: no - unacceptable 10

-----------

Based on the above voting KaZaA Lite was *disqualified* for PL2004.

-----------

Objections have been raised to the inclusion of MyIE2 on the
Pricelessware list.

To date a nag screen has been one of the *automatic* disqualifiers for
the Pricelessware list.

MyIE2 is nagware. This was *not* noted in the *ware* description that
was furnished.

As I understand it: The program has a nag screen that includes an option
to shut it off after one initial viewing. *Some* people are seeing the
nag screen multiple times despite choosing the "do not show again" option.

If the *facts* are in dispute please post a correction.

21 people voted in favor of MYIE2. If an equal or greater number of
people find it unacceptable the program will be disqualified.

If you think MYIE2 should be disqualified please post in this thead with:

MYIE2: no - unacceptable

If the "do not show again" option is fixed to work reliably in the near
future, I would vote:

MYIE2: yes - acceptable

I am assuming MYIE2 is donationware?
 
S

Spacey Spade

[snip]
MemLoad (Process Monitor: Memory) 8 (won)
RAMpage (Process Monitor: Memory) 7 (out)
[snip]

The usefulness of "recovering memory" is controversial. People should
have a hearty reading about limited resources in Win9x and WinMe. I
would like to put in a negative vote for both of these. Instead, I
suggest to use Quick Resource to monitor available resources and sound
an alarm if they get low. (perhaps TClockEx can do this too)
 
J

Jim Scott

|In article <[email protected]>,
|Susan Bugher (e-mail address removed) wrote...
|[snip]
|>MemLoad (Process Monitor: Memory) 8 (won)
|>RAMpage (Process Monitor: Memory) 7 (out)
|[snip]
|
|The usefulness of "recovering memory" is controversial. People should
|have a hearty reading about limited resources in Win9x and WinMe. I
|would like to put in a negative vote for both of these. Instead, I
|suggest to use Quick Resource to monitor available resources and sound
|an alarm if they get low. (perhaps TClockEx can do this too)
|
I agree
--
Jim
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tyneside - Top right of England
To email me directly:
miss out the X from my reply address
Visit http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 
O

omega

The usefulness of "recovering memory" is controversial. [...]
I would like to put in a negative vote for both of these.

Spacey, you trying to break hearts, stripping away our nice rose-colored
sunglasses? It could be these utilities fill a helpful psychological
purpose. Rather like industry practice in women's clothing stores to put
cleverly selected mirrors in the dressing rooms - the ones that make the
customer look thinner.
People should have a hearty reading about limited resources in Win9x
and WinMe. [...]
Instead, I suggest to use Quick Resource to monitor available resources
and sound an alarm if they get low. (perhaps TClockEx can do this too)

Many people today have a good amount of RAM. And, as you point out, the
actual value of the "RAM freeing" type of program has been brought into
serious doubt, extensively, by those who spend a lot of time studying such
things.

The resources issue, for users of a W9x OS, agree, that's the central
matter. I depend continuously on Quick Resource. It tells me how much
I can run and have open at a time. And its alarm saves me from all those
crashes caused by low resource. Re TClockEx, it uses the resource monitor
applet that comes with windows, providing a display that many prefer. No
alarm, but it's an important minimum, when running w9x, to at least have
your resources level easily visible.
 
R

REMbranded

Spacey, you trying to break hearts, stripping away our nice rose-colored
sunglasses? It could be these utilities fill a helpful psychological
purpose. Rather like industry practice in women's clothing stores to put
cleverly selected mirrors in the dressing rooms - the ones that make the
customer look thinner.

These programs do not overcome the resource limitations of 9x and ME,
but they do serve to lubricate the memory hierarchy in a way far
superior to the method Windows uses. Swapping is more intelligent also
it would seem that the method Windows uses. There are several extra
caches (buffers) created that increase performance. There is a buffer
on your hard disk and another created by Ram Idle.

Or, in short, I disagree with the many who have bashed these
utilities. I bought a commercial product and it did suck eggs. This is
not true for Ram Idle.
Many people today have a good amount of RAM. And, as you point out, the
actual value of the "RAM freeing" type of program has been brought into
serious doubt, extensively, by those who spend a lot of time studying such
things.

All that I have read about the issue is barking up the wrong trees
about the matter. They talk of the miniscule time saved in defragging
ram due to direct access, rather than the huge savings enjoyed in
opening an application that requires contiguous memory cells and
having those contiguous cells already available. This is pretty
ridiculous IMO. There are many functions and data types that require
contiguous memory cells.

Rather than flowing right into memory:

1) Windows must poll all memory cells to determine if the correct
number of contiguous memory cells are available. This is highly
unlikely in memory that has not been defragged. Still, it must be
done.

2) Windows must determine what needs to be swapped out and swap it
out... while you wait.

3) Windows must defrag to a degree in most situations to achieve the
contiguous memory cells. This is due to loading apps that do not
require contiguous memory cells in a "fragged" fashion. Bits and
pieces are stored anywhere in memory, leaving it highly fragmented.

4) The loader moves the application into memory and returns a pointer
to the first memory cell.

Or, all of this could have quietly been done in the background before
you even thought of opening the application.
The resources issue, for users of a W9x OS, agree, that's the central
matter. I depend continuously on Quick Resource. It tells me how much
I can run and have open at a time. And its alarm saves me from all those
crashes caused by low resource. Re TClockEx, it uses the resource monitor
applet that comes with windows, providing a display that many prefer. No
alarm, but it's an important minimum, when running w9x, to at least have
your resources level easily visible.

Or, just run RamIdle and not worry about it? I often have more stuff
open than I can keep up with and just don't have a problem. I can most
definitely tell RamIdle is running. Perhaps I don't run apps that
demand as much resource allocation as others, I dunno. I run quite a
bit of different programs though.

I'm using 98SE, 256 megs of ram and 128k cache. I have a target of 64
megs of free ram set and a minimum of 16 megs. It took alot of
tweaking to come up with the best settings for my system. I can spare
the 64 megs, which is defragged in the background, and which will
accept any program that I run... no questions asked.

If you guys have the time, I challenge you to try out RamIdle for a
month or so. Tweak it to your system, get used to it, and then remove
it and see if you still think that it is an unnecessary application as
to system performance. It is important that it be tweaked to optimal
performance for your system and that you become accustomed to the
increased performance before removing it. Remove or disable any
polling programs like QA. This is a waste of clock cycles with Ram
Idle.

One _major_ setting is to disable (check the box) the CPU usage graph
on the main screen of Ram Idle. You can't see the graph and it
decreases the free clock cycles of the CPU dramatically, as does any
constantly polling application. This is the most important setting.

If you're up to it, get rid of the polling apps and give this a try:

http://www.woundedmoon.org/win32/ramidlnt.html 633,268 bytes

Other settings that I recommend for systems with 100 megs of ram or
more:

Set your system up as a network server both in Start/Control
Panel/System/Performance and in Ram Idle Cache.

Set the system profile in Ram Idle as Multimedia or Game System. I
don't do either, but this leaves an aggressively set chore for RI.

Tweak the various cache settings until you can tell the difference,
and of course elect the superior settings. I seriously think the
reason so many people blow off this program is that they did not
invest the time to tweak the various settings to achieve the superior
performance. Start with the recommended settings and play with them
over a period of time.

Under Tweaks, check the boxes for: (important)

Contiguous file allocation size.
Add buffer for hard disk (that makes two buffers!).

The third box I did not select:

Make Windows use memory as much as possible.

Mine works great without this box checked. You might play with it and
see if you can detect any changes when this option is set.

It is worth your time IMO. The choice is yours.
 
O

omega

(e-mail address removed):
If you guys have the time, I challenge you to try out RamIdle for a
month or so. Tweak it to your system, get used to it, and then remove
it and see if you still think that it is an unnecessary application as
to system performance.

All right, REM, since this is coming from you. I will make a point to do
that, spend a month running it, while choosing its settings attentively.
 
R

REMbranded

All right, REM, since this is coming from you. I will make a point to do
that, spend a month running it, while choosing its settings attentively.

I guess I should have nominated it. I haven't tried the two that were
voted for, so I skipped them. It is my personal priceless program <G>.

The commercial program I bought was really bad. I have no idea if the
two mentioned are good or not. I agree that a badly written utility is
useless though. After I got Ram Idle tweaked I never looked back.

The image on that download link shows the default settings. I had just
installed it when I made that capture. And I was skeptical until I
checked the disable CPU usage graph and tweaked the program. Then,
wham! Everything flowed smoothly and I have never had a resource
problem.

Further explanation:

The memory in a system is engineered to balance high cost memory with
low cost memory in order to get the best performance at the lowest
cost.

Registers are the fastest memory. They are rather expensive though in
the fact that adding more greatly complicates the overall architecture
of the system.

The L1 & L2 caches are the next fastest. If you have a celeron you
have 128k. If you buy the more expensive model you get 512k IIRC. This
is a wise investment when selectin a new machine. This is really fast
ram located close to the processor, where the greatest increases in
performance occur.

Main memory comes next and it is relatively fast, but not in
comparison to the registers and cache. A great reduction in speed
occurs when your cache must flow to memory. Bus contention occurs
here, as is described below.

Your hard disk comes next; the swap drive. This is very, very slow in
relation to the above. Loading a program from drive is slow also. This
can be _greatly_ helped by having the page spaces available when a
page needs to swap back into memory. Each cache is checked to see if
it contains the data before swapping occurs. You're a big winner when
you get a cache hit!

The various CD's and DVD's come next, several times slower than the
hard disk.

Tape drives come in last.

The ability to create additional caches to allow the cpu to do
something important for as many cycles as is possible is the
inherently good ability Ram Idle provides. A smooth transition from
top down allows the processor to grab and do a job, rather than
waiting on the lower, slower types of memory. The additional caches
hold data, filling the various caches as the cpu goes wild with
productivity from the slower devices. This maximizes the intended
performance intended from the mixture of extremely fast, but expensive
memories with the cheaper, but slower memories.

The top is where it's at. Go for the larger cache when buying a
machine. Get ample quality ram for main memory. Some is really cheap
and the quality is questionable.

After that, a program like Ram Idle is all that you can do to
lubricate the exchanges from one level to another. Obviously, having
free space swapped out in advance is a good thing. Degragging is very
important and you will never notice a decrease in performance. This is
done with free clock cycles in the background as you work. The
additional caches keep pertinent data closer to the top level and
greatly increase your chances of a cache hit at a high level of
performance.

A cache miss means several steps are required. There must be a request
for possession of the data and address buses. The processor must
recognize this request. The processor must allocate control of the
data bus. The processor must acknowledge the requesting module has the
bus. The requesting module must urtilize the bus. Information on the
bus must be stored on a stack. The transfer takes place. The receiving
module must signal it is finished. The processor must receive this
signal. The processor reacquires the bus. The processor loads the
information stored on the system stack. The processor continues with
whatever it was doing.

The more of the above that occurs at the higher levels of memory the
faster the process can occur. When awaiting a hard disk, even with two
caches the process is greatly slowed.

IMO Ram Idle provides the lubrication exactly where it is needed as
the traversals from one level of memory to another occurs, which is
quite frequently, as this is the engineered intention of the memory
hierarchy.

2 cents, but it does pan out.
 
O

omega

(e-mail address removed):
The commercial program I bought was really bad. I have no idea if the
two mentioned are good or not. I agree that a badly written utility is
useless though.

I once bought MemTurbo, used it only briefly before deciding not to bother.
After I got Ram Idle tweaked I never looked back.
[...]

Thank you for the detailed post. I'll save it for offline study.
 
S

Spacey Spade

(e-mail address removed):


I once bought MemTurbo, used it only briefly before deciding not to bother.
[snip]

I settled on MemTurbo also, used it for about 2 months, decided it was
cool to watch the bars go across the screen, but otherwise useless. If
RamIdle cures the biggest (for me) Win9x weakness, then I will be
overjoyed. Omega, you go first.

[Upon opening the Well of the Souls and peering down into it.]
Sallah: Indy, why does the floor move?
Indiana Jones: Give me your torch. [Sallah does, and Indy drops it in.]
Snakes. Why'd it have to be snakes?
Sallah: Asps. Very dangerous. You go first.

Spacey
 

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