Notice of intention to complain

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Hi everybody

My real name is Greg Miskelly. I intend to make a complaint to the United
Kingdom Data Protection Agency regarding software products entitled Norton
as distributed by Symantec. The activity of Symantec software has prohibited
access to data on a machine that has been left with me.

I have briefly outline me complaint in

symantec.support.win95.nortonantivirus.general

but I thought it appropriate to post here also, because I do notbelieve that
anyone from Symantec would bother to read their own newsgroup..

Throughout the EU it is wholely illegal to produce and distribute software
that prohibits access to data. This legislation came about originally to
protect computer users from shareware that refused to operate after a
certain time. Nevertheless, the principle still applies. Symantec should
note that this is not a matter for litigation, (I do not have to have
millions of dollars) it is criminal law. If my complaint is found to be
valid then a criminal prosecution will result and Norton products will not
be permitted to be sold anywhere in the EU.

I will make the complaint on Monday 27th March 2006 unless I receive
immediate and unqualified assistance from Symantec in removing their
software from the stated machine.

Clarence (Lancy) Howard

 

[Guest]

X-No-Archive: yes


I can tell you that I never installed Norton without regretting it later.
But has nothing to do with your problem.

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

I can tell you that I never installed Norton without regretting it later.

But has nothing to do with your problem.

I am very pleased to inform you that I have never installed Norton since it
became a product provided by Symantec.

Clarence (Lancy) Howard

 

[pcbutts1]

Are you a dork?



--


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NEW Embedded system W/Linux. We now sell DVR cards.
See it all at http://www.seedsv.com/products.htm
Sharpvision simply the best http://www.seedsv.com

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Are you a dork?

If a dork refers to an old fart that won't be shit on by an arrogant
corporation then I am a dork. I do know how the law stands on this issue and
I will use it.

I expect you must delight in being an impudent brat.

Clarence (Lancy) Howard

 

[James Egan]

Throughout the EU it is wholely illegal to produce and distribute software
that prohibits access to data. This legislation came about originally to
protect computer users from shareware that refused to operate after a
certain time. Nevertheless, the principle still applies.

The principle may well apply to software which *deliberately*
prohibits access to data but your case sounds like an uninstall which
has gone pear shaped. Is there any evidence that symantec are
deliberately trying to screw you?

There are any number of ways you can access the data (bartpe, knoppix
etc.) without booting to the installed winme or you can rename the
system.dat and user.dat files and do a clean install of winme (without
norton) to get at the data. I don't think complaining to the data
protection agency is the way forward.


Jim.

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Throughout the EU it is wholely illegal to produce and distribute
software

The principle may well apply to software which *deliberately*
prohibits access to data but your case sounds like an uninstall which
has gone pear shaped. Is there any evidence that symantec are
deliberately trying to screw you?

Jim, I'm unaware of the *deliberate* aspect of this legislation. It's like
saying that a person who drives recklessly and causes the death of a
pedestrian is not guilty of an offence because they didn't mean to kill
anyone. Another analogy would be that a person who does not maintain his car
could cause a crash because one of the wheels fell off. This crash was not
an act of God, it would be the result of negligence.

Certainly, the aspect of intent is deeply embedded within the "Misuse of
Computers Act". That Act uses the notion of intent in a similar manner to
the Theft Act(s). I am not suggesting that Symantec have deliberately set
out to damage this womans computer. They have, though, knowingly distributed
software that performs operations that prohibit the uninstall process and
also creates a situation whereby the machine becomes unuseable.

There are any number of ways you can access the data (bartpe, knoppix
etc.) .......

I have now checked these out. I will attemp to use bartpe in the next few
hours. However, I do not expect any success in this endeavour. In this
article:
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/sunset-c2000kb.nsf/pfdocs/1999193946440764

Symantec even admits to the world that it is interfering with the CMOS.

I suspect that there is a CMOS/MBR/NTFS (or CMOS/MBR/FAT) virus on board
along with Norton. I can not envisage any means whereby I can start the
machine without the boot sector of the hard disk being activated. If I can
remove the Norton I can then get at the virus. Norton Anti-Virus software is
actually protecting the virus.

...... without booting to the installed winme or you can rename the
system.dat and user.dat files and do a clean install of winme (without
norton) to get at the data. I don't think complaining to the data
protection agency is the way forward.

All I want from Symantec is one of them to email me and give me instructions
how to remove their product from a floppy disk boot. It is their code that
is preventing me from getting at the data on the machine. As nobody from
Symantec gives a damn then what should I do? Oh well, scrap the lady's
photographs of her newborn and put it down to experience. No, I won't do it.
I intend to become an absolute pain in the ass to Symantec.

Y'know, Symantec can not claim that some unknown virus is the cause of the
problem. They are the one's that are charging people so that they can
protect their data. It's like saying that a police officer can't do his job
properly because there are criminals in the area.

I'll update you on bartpe when I have tried it. From reading the web pages,
I don't think that knoppix is a correct way forward.

Clarence (Lancy) Howard
(e-mail address removed) (remove one of the 7s)

 

[James Egan]

Certainly, the aspect of intent is deeply embedded within the "Misuse of
Computers Act". That Act uses the notion of intent in a similar manner to
the Theft Act(s). I am not suggesting that Symantec have deliberately set
out to damage this womans computer. They have, though, knowingly distributed
software that performs operations that prohibit the uninstall process and
also creates a situation whereby the machine becomes unuseable.

If you find a bug which crashes the system it's no doubt covered
somewhere in the eula that they're not responsible for the
consequences.

I would have thought that any system security/integrity software is
likely to restrict itself being closed down otherwise it wouldn't be
fit for its purpose. Though for sure some programs are so hard to
close down that even the machine administrator has difficulty never
mind a virus.

I have now checked these out. I will attemp to use bartpe in the next few
hours. However, I do not expect any success in this endeavour.

If you have a usb flash drive, insert it prior to booting from bartpe
and simply copy the data you want onto it.

I suspect that there is a CMOS/MBR/NTFS (or CMOS/MBR/FAT) virus on board
along with Norton. I can not envisage any means whereby I can start the
machine without the boot sector of the hard disk being activated. If I can
remove the Norton I can then get at the virus. Norton Anti-Virus software is
actually protecting the virus.

Boot sector viruses on the hard disk won't be activated if you don't
boot from the hard disk.

All I want from Symantec is one of them to email me and give me instructions
how to remove their product from a floppy disk boot. It is their code that
is preventing me from getting at the data on the machine. As nobody from
Symantec gives a damn then what should I do? Oh well, scrap the lady's
photographs of her newborn and put it down to experience. No, I won't do it.
I intend to become an absolute pain in the ass to Symantec.

Unless it's a known issue, which it doesn't appear to be if you can't
find anything on their website, I don't see how they can help. Your
machine won't boot to windows now and their software won't run without
windows.

Y'know, Symantec can not claim that some unknown virus is the cause of the
problem. They are the one's that are charging people so that they can
protect their data. It's like saying that a police officer can't do his job
properly because there are criminals in the area.

I'll update you on bartpe when I have tried it. From reading the web pages,
I don't think that knoppix is a correct way forward.

If you don't have a flash drive, knoppix may well be more suitable
that bartpe. You can access a FAT or FAT32 filesystem on the hard disk
from knoppix and iirc it already has cd burning software on there to
create the cd you were trying to create earlier.


Jim.

 

[Gabriele Neukam]

On that special day, Clarence (Lancy) Howard, ([email protected])
said...

I am not suggesting that Symantec have deliberately set
out to damage this womans computer. They have, though, knowingly distributed
software that performs operations that prohibit the uninstall process and
also creates a situation whereby the machine becomes unuseable.

Well, they are not the only ones, that managed to botch their client's
machines, as
http://isc.sans.org/diary.php?storyid=1184
demonstrates. I am afraid, the EULA with the ever-present "it's not our
fault if something goes haywire" will block your attempts at suing
them, as you (or the lady) bought the software, clicked an "I agree"
button while installing the software, and so they are set.


Gabriele Neukam

(e-mail address removed)

 

[James Egan]

Well, they are not the only ones, that managed to botch their client's
machines, as
http://isc.sans.org/diary.php?storyid=1184
demonstrates. I am afraid, the EULA with the ever-present "it's not our
fault if something goes haywire" will block your attempts at suing
them, as you (or the lady) bought the software, clicked an "I agree"
button while installing the software, and so they are set.

He's not planning on suing (civil law) them but is claiming that the
data protection act (criminal law) has been contravened because
symantec software is preventing the machine from booting..to an extent
that the cmos can't be edited or erased.

I didn't know any software could do that.


Jim.

 

[pcbutts1]

Yes you are a dork.

--


The best live web video on the internet http://www.seedsv.com/webdemo.htm
NEW Embedded system W/Linux. We now sell DVR cards.
See it all at http://www.seedsv.com/products.htm
Sharpvision simply the best http://www.seedsv.com

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Hello, again, Jim

If you find a bug which crashes the system it's no doubt covered
somewhere in the eula that they're not responsible for the
consequences.

I have stated that I expect to find a CMOS/MBR/NTFS (or CMOS/MBR/FAT) virus
on board. Realistically, I made this statement in the hope that Symantec
might send me something. Truth be known, I do not expect to find any virus
on board. Norton is screwing around with the CMOS and has code embedded in
the MBR (what the hooks are in the CMOS, I simply don't know). The product
_must_ let me uninstall this. If the uninstall procedure has failed then
Symantec _must_ send me an alternative method of deactivating their own
malicious software. Even if there is an unknown virus, this type of virus is
not new. Exebug and Monkey did it a decade ago. Symantec have employed the
characteristics of these viruses as the fundemental foundation of their own
protection mechanism. Have they ever paid any royalties to the authors of
these viruses? I would seriously doubt it. Even if there is a virus on board
then the fact that they are using the mechanism would indicate that they are
fully aware of the potential of this type of virus and should, therefore,
make allowance for it. Therefore, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE!!!

I would have thought that any system security/integrity software is
likely to restrict itself being closed down otherwise it wouldn't be
fit for its purpose. Though for sure some programs are so hard to
close down that even the machine administrator has difficulty never
mind a virus.

Okay, I'll accept that faults can occur. I will also accept that Norton
should protect itself. However, when this goes pear shaped (your words) then
somebody at Symantec should help.

Will they help? No.

Why will they not help? Because they can't afford to admit how useless their
product is.

If you have a usb flash drive, insert it prior to booting from bartpe
and simply copy the data you want onto it.

I have even tried Motto Hairu for this purpose. Norton, for some reason, is
preventing ASPI.SYS from functioning properly when I boot from the floppy.
Booting from a floppy on my own machine using Motto Hairu works just fine.
It takes me 10 seconds to change directory to C:\MYDOCU~1 and start XCOPY
*.* D: /S (where D: is the designated drive for the USB flash drive.

Boot sector viruses on the hard disk won't be activated if you don't
boot from the hard disk.

When there is a hook in the CMOS that points to the MBR of the hard disk
then the opposite is true. Symantec have already admitted that they have a
hook in the CMOS. If there is a virus, then it is Norton code that is both
activating it and protecting it.

Unless it's a known issue, which it doesn't appear to be if you can't
find anything on their website, I don't see how they can help. Your
machine won't boot to windows now and their software won't run without
windows.

Sorry, screw their wedsite. This really is the issue. The product is so
reliant on this lousy foundation that it totally falls apart when there's a
problem with it. The consequences to the customer (oh... you should have
made backups) are of no relevance to Symantec as long as the customer coughs
up the dollars. The whole point of anti-virus software is that it should
attempt to protect against the unknown. If there was only known issues then
everybody on the planet should download F-Prot for DOS; run it once and the
world would be free of viruses. Your argument about "a known issue" is
utterly irrelevant simply because the product itself is based on this
principle.

If you don't have a flash drive, knoppix may well be more suitable
that bartpe. You can access a FAT or FAT32 filesystem on the hard disk
from knoppix and iirc it already has cd burning software on there to
create the cd you were trying to create earlier.

As stated above, I've already tried this with Motto Hairu. Norton, for some
reason, is preventing ASPI.SYS from functioning correctly (maybe there is a
virus on board, Yo ho ho!).

Please remember that I'm not getting at you Jim. Unfortunately, bartpe
didn't work. It does work perfectly on my own machine though (1st time).

Clarence (Lancy) Howard
(e-mail address removed) (remove one of the 7s)

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Yes you are a dork.

If you want to flame me, do it privately. Just drop one of the 7s from my
address and you will get me. Anyway, more power to your elbow, sonny. When
you wake up tomorrow, look in the mirror and squeeze those zits, go get
yourself a girlfriend (preferrably not one that has four legs and requires
to be sheared each spring).

If you flame me privately, I can delete your incoming mail and nobody here
has to read your teenage angst.

Lancy Howard

 

[Heather]

Just a heads up for the OP (Lancy).....

I don't have the original post, but if you are running WinME, Norton
will totally screw you up!!!! We see this all the time on our Microsoft
WinME groups.

What galls me is that the packaging says it will work on ME....IT
WON'T!!

Pop over to MS WinME General news group or wait for Noel Paton to answer
this....

And Peter....don't bother to put another of your *anal* posts out
because I am top posting. You really do need to get a life!!!!

Heather

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Hi Gabriele

Gabriele said

Jim said

He's not planning on suing (civil law) them but is claiming that the
data protection act (criminal law) has been contravened because
symantec software is preventing the machine from booting..to an extent
that the cmos can't be edited or erased.

If you put up a sign outside your house and announce to the world that you
are going to attack somebody tonight, it is not a disclaimer if you actually
do go and attack somebody. The bullshit "I agree" is irrelevant. Even if I
wanted to sue, I have neither the resourses, or the patience to do so. If I
had both, and also had the desire to do so, then this subject would not be
here, it would be in the hands of a lawyer in California.

Put it simply. All I want is some help from Symantec to remove their
software from a machine that is faulty. The reason for the machine not
working properly is because of inherent flaws in the design of their
software. If they don't contact me I will regard the actions performed by
their software as a crime and report it to the appropriate authority for
investigation (and prosecution).

Clarence (Lancy) Howard
(e-mail address removed) (remove one of the 7s)

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Heather said

I don't have the original post, but if you are running WinME, Norton
will totally screw you up!!!! We see this all the time on our Microsoft
WinME groups.

Your observation is very relevant. The faulty machine is, indeed, running ME

What galls me is that the packaging says it will work on ME....IT
WON'T!!

I have never read the packaging. I stopped buying Norton products the minute
that Symantec took it over from, the truly inspired, Peter Norton.

Pop over to MS WinME General news group or wait for Noel Paton to answer
this....

It's Friday night and I'll probably go and get pissed. However, I will pay
your chosen group a visit tomorrow. I am interested in what Noel Paton might
have to tell me. A little bit of insight can go a very long way.

And Peter....don't bother to put another of your *anal* posts out
because I am top posting. You really do need to get a life!!!!

Sorry, I dunno what this remark is about.

Thanks, Heather. I do believe that I know what is wrong with the machine. I
do actually think that there is a possibility that I might be able to fix it
myself. Unfortunately, the machine has data on board that is important to
the owner. Therefore, I am very reluctant to take a chance based on a hunch.
I could never forgive myself if my actions destroyed this data (it simply
can not be replaced).

Clarence (Lancy) Howard
(e-mail address removed) (drop one of the 7s)

 

[Art]

Hi everybody

My real name is Greg Miskelly. I intend to make a complaint to the United
Kingdom Data Protection Agency regarding software products entitled Norton
as distributed by Symantec. The activity of Symantec software has prohibited
access to data on a machine that has been left with me.

I have briefly outline me complaint in

symantec.support.win95.nortonantivirus.general

Have you tried removal tools such as this one:

http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nsw.nsf/docid/2001101612274407

For old versions of Norton Utilities or Norton System Works?

Also, why would you want to uninstall the whole shebang? There are a
few truly useful utils in some of these older versions.

Art

http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg

 

[Peter Seiler]

Heather - 24.03.2006 18:39 :

And Peter....don't bother to put another of your *anal* posts out
because I am top posting. You really do need to get a life!!!!

Heather

hope, you do not mean not me?

If, ok, I'm not a friend of topposting for reasons I explained. Most of
NG-reposters do NOT topposting If somebody partout prefer
topposting: it's NOT my thing but I'm educated to be tolerant and I can
live with topposting.

But topposting in a way as pcbutts1 usually does, IMO is NOT a good
example because he puts his SIG-line directly under his topposting. This
way topposting, SIG-placement and fullquoting together produces giant
SIGs instead of max. 4 lines.

Have a nice weekend (in NY?)

 

[Peter Seiler]

Clarence (Lancy) Howard - 24.03.2006 19:11 :

Sorry, I dunno what this remark is about.

Me too. It's a little diffuse. *PERHAPS* Heather meant me? I hope I'm
not right. See my repost to her.

 

[Clarence \(Lancy\) Howard]

Hi Art

Oh dear, I had planned to go out tonight, but the weather says otherwise.
Looks like I'm gonna be nursing a sick machine with a bottle, or two, of
wine. Anyway, many thanks for your help

Have you tried removal tools such as this one:

For old versions of Norton Utilities or Norton System Works?

The machine will not allow Windows to start (even in safe mode). It just
hangs. Everything stops except the picture on the monitor. Your suggestion
is, alas, of no help.

Also, why would you want to uninstall the whole shebang? There are a
few truly useful utils in some of these older versions.

The only files that are of any use are NDD.EXE and it's help file, plus
DISKEDIT and it's help file. These should be burned to a DOS CDR along with
F-Prot for DOS. The rest of it is of no use to man nor beast and should be
scrapped..

I don't see any point in keeping NDD or DISKEDIT on the hard disk. I would
only envisage needing them when I can't get at the hard disk.

Clarence (Lancy) Howard
(e-mail address removed) (remove one of the 7s)