New Warning over IE flaws

N

null

The problem is you and the others who post here, and by extension the
small minority who even know what Usenet is, are very much the minority.

Judging by the cries for help on the various newsgroups, don't put any
stock in the ability of newsgroup users to have much of a clue either.

Helper: "How are your IE security options set?"
User: "What security settings?"

User: "I disabled my firewall for just a few minutes and ...."

User: "My <usually Norton or AVG> says I'm infected with <xyz
malware>. Now what do I do?"

It's hopeless :(


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
 
S

scroob

Over 100 million people in this world use IE with no problems. What's the
matter with you? Learning disability? :D

No problems? The average computer user has dozens of Trojans, spyware
programs and viruses on his computer, all courtesy of Internet Explorer and
Outlook Express. The repairman gets the machine when it finally runs so
slowly that the know-nothing user even notices.
 
S

scroob

Windows isn't insecure, it's a heap of Microsoft programs that run on
top of it that are insecure.

I agree. We had another similar thread here once about Windows Update. I
made the point that if you eliminate IE and OE, you have eliminated 99% of
the need for Windows Update, since almost every patch is to fix these 2
buggy programs. There have been a few for the Java VM, and the dozens for
fonts and languages, etc. I can't think of a single one for the Windows
kernel itself.
 
A

Aaron

So Gordon, if you're an X user, why are you so upset? Go use your X
and enjoy the perfect functionality, invulnerability, jillions of free
programs, and excellent hardware compatibility and let me suffer alone
in Windows Hell. :)

Gordon, I know you don't like vulnerabilities. Why do you act as
though I enjoy them? I bet I hate them just as much as you do. Instead
of running around like screaming like my hair is on fire, I simply use
AV, Spyware, and Firewall programs. I keep my OS patched with the
critical security updates. Takes 2 minutes a month. <shrug>

Too bad that still won't protect you from most zero day exploits (like
the one posted higher up in this thread).
Bob

Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.



Aaron (my email is not munged!)
 
G

Gordon Darling

Judging by the cries for help on the various newsgroups, don't put any
stock in the ability of newsgroup users to have much of a clue either.

Helper: "How are your IE security options set?"
User: "What security settings?"

User: "I disabled my firewall for just a few minutes and ...."

User: "My <usually Norton or AVG> says I'm infected with <xyz
malware>. Now what do I do?"

It's hopeless :(

As in the one I got this afternoon - it makes you despair when you are
asked to repair a machine used by a fairly intelligent adult (a bank
manager no less) and you find six porn diallers on the one machine!!


Regards
Gordon
 
J

JanC

scroob said:
I agree. We had another similar thread here once about Windows Update.
I made the point that if you eliminate IE and OE, you have eliminated
99% of the need for Windows Update, since almost every patch is to fix
these 2 buggy programs. There have been a few for the Java VM, and the
dozens for fonts and languages, etc. I can't think of a single one for
the Windows kernel itself.

It's not only those 2 programs but also other libraries & services that are
often used by IE and OE, and by many other programs.
 
G

Gordon Darling

I never use IE unless it's absolutely necessary. But I regularly do
/all/ the security updates.

in case there are people who still think I was being unfair to Microsoft
see

http://lists.netsys.com/pipermail/full-disclosure/2004-June/022556.html

This was written by Nick Fitzgerald a very well respected anti-virus
professional and researcher (ex editor of the "Virus Bulletin"). He said
it a lot better than I did. Food for thought.

in part

"This is entirely consistent with a long line of shoddy "fixes" from
Microsoft (and, to be fair, many other vendors). Instead of seeing the
"%20 bug" reported by Slemko above for what it turns out it was -- a
clear indication something was horribly broken in multiple parts of the
codebase where (HTML) URL parsing occurs, it is now quite clear that it
was seen as a "there is a problem if '%20' is present in URLs" problem.

When "fixing" the %00/binary null issue recently, was _that_ seen for
what it really was -- a clear indication there was something horribly
broken in multiple parts of the codebase where (HTML) URL parsing
occurs?

Nope.

Despite all that extra security training the code monkeys in Redmond
(or perhaps Bangalore?) had as a result of Billy Boy's much publicized
Security Initiative, the same old blinkers as to locating the source of
the _reported problem_ were apparently still firmly in place. Rather
than opening an exhaustive analysis to uncover the underlying problem
that could have resulted in them properly fixing the (apparently still
undiscovered) base cause of the horribly broken (HTML) URL parsing
code, it seems "fixing the reported %00 problem" was the objective.

Lest anyone think this is an unusual, or possibly unique case with MS
products, I'll simply point out that we have seen multiple similar
instances with macro security issues in Word and the other Office
products where a bug is reported in one or other of the products in the
suite, fixed and subsequently the same bug is found in yet other Office
products. We also saw very similar failures of vulnerability analysis
in cases such as the Incorrect MIME Type and Incorrect Object Data Type
vulnerabilities.

The repetitive nature of some of the patterns of vulnerabilities we see
in its products suggests that the hugely labyrinthine codebase and the
distributed and always-changing make-up of the teams responsible for
specific components and products, means that the same functionality is
implemented over and over by groups who do not talk with each other.
Given the monstrous size of the whole codebase, its continual, rapid
growth and the market-grabbing strategy of stuffing more and more of
what is traditionally considered "application layer" functionality into
the OS ("the DoJ defence" in the IE/Netscape case and potentially to be
used in future against media player makers, software firewall makers,
perhaps AV developers, and no doubt all manner of others) we will see
many, many more instances of these repeated patterns of vulnerability
exposure because the scale of the problem is far beyond what the human
capital at MS can cope with and the problem is computationally
intractible (ala Turing) so cannot be fixed by throwing more technology
at it. As it is incredibly unlikely the whole morass of Windows code
will be ditched and re-written intelligently from scratch, I am quite
confident in this prediction."

Regards
Gordon
 
B

Bob Adkins

As in the one I got this afternoon - it makes you despair when you are
asked to repair a machine used by a fairly intelligent adult (a bank
manager no less) and you find six porn diallers on the one machine!!

My niece (married, 3 teenage children) brought me her computer last week. It
had 290 spyware references (Spybot S&D), 24 browser helper objects
(BHODemon), 2 trojans and a virus. I told her she should use her Spyware
and AV programs as I instructed her to. She indignantly replied that she
uses them all the time. Heh heh heh. That lazy girl was fibbing to me!
What's an uncle supposed to do, put her computer in a vault? :\

Bob

Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
 
B

Bob Adkins

Too bad that still won't protect you from most zero day exploits (like
the one posted higher up in this thread).

Well, something's protecting me. I mix it up as much as anyone, and haven't
been bitten in 4-5 years. (except a little spyware)

Bob

Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
 
B

Bob Adkins

And your excuse for using Forte Agent 2.0/32.640 instead of Outhouse is:

It's "Outlook Express", and it sucks eggs.
a) I'm a hypocrite

Don't be so hard on yourself. :)
b) I don't have a clue about what I say, I just like to see myself in a
thread.

I know it. Same here! :)
c) I have a "Learning disability "

Look, you can overcome it a LD if you work hard at it. Diane Swonk has a
learning disability, and look how rich and famous she is.
Sorry Bob. Sometimes you provide good info and are helpful. This is
just not one of those times.

But I'll make up for it. I promise I will.

Bob

Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
 
B

Bob Adkins

Outlook Express. The repairman gets the machine when it finally runs so
slowly that the know-nothing user even notices.

Shhhhhh! Don't rock the boat!

-S-
Neighborhood Repairman



Bob

Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
 
B

Bob Adkins

I agree. We had another similar thread here once about Windows Update. I
made the point that if you eliminate IE and OE, you have eliminated 99% of
the need for Windows Update, since almost every patch is to fix these 2
buggy programs. There have been a few for the Java VM, and the dozens for
fonts and languages, etc. I can't think of a single one for the Windows
kernel itself.

MS is working overtime to plug holes in Windows XP SP2. It's more than a
service pack. Just wait!

Bob

Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
 
G

Gordon Darling

My niece (married, 3 teenage children) brought me her computer last week. It
had 290 spyware references (Spybot S&D), 24 browser helper objects
(BHODemon), 2 trojans and a virus. I told her she should use her Spyware
and AV programs as I instructed her to. She indignantly replied that she
uses them all the time. Heh heh heh. That lazy girl was fibbing to me!
What's an uncle supposed to do, put her computer in a vault? :\

Bob

I had a similar problem a couple of weeks ago. A teenager (female) with a
laptop connected through her father's machine to his adsl account. The
amount of garbage on it was incredible. She swore blind she hadn't clicked
on anything she should not have and was very careful, etc, etc.

I just wish I could spend more time teaching people to do digital
photography, music composition, peer-to-peer networking, desk top
publishing, instant messaging or whatever they want to do rather than sort
out security problems. Life would be much more satisfying!

Regards
Gordon
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

I agree. We had another similar thread here once about Windows
Update. I made the point that if you eliminate IE and OE, you have
eliminated 99% of the need for Windows Update, since almost every
patch is to fix these 2 buggy programs. There have been a few for
the Java VM, and the dozens for fonts and languages, etc.

Exploits Windows OS components have caused plenty of trouble. The
first that spring to mind are the RPC/DCOM vulnerabilites exploited by
MSBlast and other worms. Patches were available via Windows Update
well before those worms hit.
I can't think of a single one for the Windows kernel itself.

I can't either, but the OS is bigger than the kernel.

Microsoft seems to be moving more and more toward leaving things
disabled by default and giving users the option to enable them if
needed. Hopefully XP SP2 will turn off many things as well as enable
the firewall.
 
S

Scrubbs

»Q« said:
Exploits Windows OS components have caused plenty of trouble. The
first that spring to mind are the RPC/DCOM vulnerabilites exploited by
MSBlast and other worms. Patches were available via Windows Update
well before those worms hit.


I can't either, but the OS is bigger than the kernel.

Microsoft seems to be moving more and more toward leaving things
disabled by default and giving users the option to enable them if
needed. Hopefully XP SP2 will turn off many things as well as enable
the firewall.

I've already tried a late beta of XP SP2. If you already have a 3rd
party (software)firewall installed it will allow you, via a prompt, to
keep that or use the M$ one. I'd advise anyone to keep their existing
3rd party firewall. SP2 also makes it more or less mandatory that your
PC will check for updates from M$ (it's is possible to turn this off but
us difficult AFAIK).

At home, I do not use XP period. I intensely dislike its control over
one's computing. SP2 takes that control a stage further by locking even
more things down. Maybe this will be good for newbies - it's a
philsophical debating point certainly, but it'll be interesting to hear
the reaction from business users.

/Scrubbs
 
S

Scrubbs

Gordon said:
in case there are people who still think I was being unfair to Microsoft
see

http://lists.netsys.com/pipermail/full-disclosure/2004-June/022556.html

This was written by Nick Fitzgerald a very well respected anti-virus
professional and researcher (ex editor of the "Virus Bulletin"). He said
it a lot better than I did. Food for thought.

in part
Despite all that extra security training the code monkeys in Redmond
(or perhaps Bangalore?) had as a result of Billy Boy's much publicized
Security Initiative, the same old blinkers as to locating the source of
the _reported problem_ were apparently still firmly in place. Rather
than opening an exhaustive analysis to uncover the underlying problem
that could have resulted in them properly fixing the (apparently still
undiscovered) base cause of the horribly broken (HTML) URL parsing
code, it seems "fixing the reported %00 problem" was the objective.

Lest anyone think this is an unusual, or possibly unique case with MS
products, I'll simply point out that we have seen multiple similar
instances with macro security issues in Word and the other Office
products where a bug is reported in one or other of the products in the
suite, fixed and subsequently the same bug is found in yet other Office
products... <snip>

The repetitive nature of some of the patterns of vulnerabilities we see
in its products suggests that the hugely labyrinthine codebase and the
distributed and always-changing make-up of the teams responsible for
specific components and products, means that the same functionality is
implemented over and over by groups who do not talk with each other. <snip>

Spot on, especially the last paragraph. This has also been suggested by
senior writer on the PC Pro (UK publication) staff. M$ is entirely
marketing, not engineering driven. It's the obverse to the OpenSource
approach.

/Scrubbs
 
H

Haggard the Horrendous

I just wish I could spend more time teaching people to do digital
photography, music composition, peer-to-peer networking, desk top
publishing, instant messaging or whatever they want to do rather than sort
out security problems. Life would be much more satisfying!

Regards
Gordon

Ditto. Do you also find it frustrating when you get a blank look after
asking someone:
-What firewall are you running?
-Is your Anti-virus scanner up to date?
-Have you done all your Windows updates?
-Have you scanned your system for Ad and SpyWare?

So, what I did was make a CD with the free version of ZA, a link to
AVG, Ad-Aware and Spybot, Mozilla 1.5 (and the HTML files for setting
the Security Settings) and a step-by-step procedure for fixing their
systems. I also include a note that I will help fix their system
*once* for free (note that these are friends/aquaintenances and I'm
not in the business). Once clean then I'll charge $50/hour for
cleaning their system or they'll have to take it into the shop where
it'll probably cost in the neighbourhood of $300. I also mention that
some ISP's (notably Telus around here) are closing people's accounts
until they get their infected machines cleaned. These latter points, I
think, are the important ones. Most people, once their system is
clean, will continue their unsafe practices *unless* they realize that
you are no longer a free resource and it's gonna cost them.

I also include a bunch of Freeware programs along with links to SOS's
and the Pricelessware site.
 
G

Gordon Darling

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:08:35 +0000, wrote:

Most people, once their system is clean, will continue
their unsafe practices *unless* they realize that you are no longer a
free resource and it's gonna cost them.

Very, very true.

Regards
Gordon
 
A

Aaron

Well, something's protecting me. I mix it up as much as anyone, and
haven't been bitten in 4-5 years. (except a little spyware)

Hope your luck holds.


Aaron (my email is not munged!)
 
S

Steve

Bob said:
Over 100 million people in this world use IE with no problems. What's
the matter with you? Learning disability? :D

I prefer Firefox over IE because Firefox doesn't bombard me with popup
windows, graphic ads in the pages, and generally loads all sites faster.
Oh, and it's NOT vulnerable to all the IE security issues that arise on
a weekly basis in the news. ;)
 

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