IE still horribly insecure

E

elaich

For those of you who keep harping about the recent Firefox updates to fix
security flaws, as if the browser is suddenly not to be trusted, here's a
read that hopefully will open your eyes.

I'm quoting it because the original page contains many stories. The
original page is here:

http://windowssecrets.com/comp/050512/#story1


"Is Firefox still safer than IE?

By Brian Livingston

The popular Firefox browser received a security upgrade, known as version
1.0.4, when the Mozilla Foundation released the new code on May 11. This
upgrade closes a security hole that could allow a hacker Web site to
install software without a visitors' knowledge or approval.

This is the fourth minor update to Firefox since the open-source
browser's 1.0 release on Nov. 9, 2004. That doesn't seem like very many
patches to me, compared with Firefox's dominant competition, Microsoft's
Internet Explorer (IE), which is included in every copy of Windows. But
I've heard a surprising amount of comment that Firefox might no longer be
as secure as IE.

At Microsoft's Windows Hardware Engineering Conference (WinHEC), held in
Seattle April 25-27, for example, an IE product manager made this case
explicitly. Firefox had had (at that time) "three major releases," she
said, while Internet Explorer 6.0 had had none. This statement was
presented as though a lack of upgrades to IE was a benefit.

In fact, Microsoft has released at least 20 major security patches for
Windows or Internet Explorer since November 2004. Most of these patches
were rated "Critical," Microsoft's most severe security alert level.

The evidence I've seen so far indicates that Firefox remains much more
secure than IE. But it's worth our time to take a closer look.

IE users were exposed for 200 days in 2004

Some remarkable statistics comparing the major Web browsers have been
developed by Scanit NV, an international security firm with headquarters
in Brussels, Belgium, and Dubai, United Arab Emirates.

The company painstakingly researched the dates when vulnerabilities were
first discovered in various browsers, and the dates when the holes were
subsequently patched.

The firm found that IE was wide open for a total of 200 days in 2004, or
54% of the year, to exploits that were "in the wild" on the Internet.

The Firefox browser and its older sibling Mozilla had no periods in 2004
when a security flaw went unpatched before exploits started circulating
on the Net. With the latest 1.0.4 upgrade, Firefox has retained its
"patch-before-hackers-can-strike" record so far in 2005, as well.

These statistics are so important to understanding the "attack surface"
of the major browsers that we should break down this study into its
individual findings:

• IE suffered from unpatched security holes for 359 days in 2004.
According to Scanit, there were only 7 days out of 366 in 2004 during
which IE had no unpatched security holes. This means IE had no official
patch available against well-publicized vulnerabilities for 98% of the
year.

• Attacks on IE weaknesses circulated "in the wild" for 200 of those
days. Scanit records the first sighting of actual working hacker code on
the Internet. In this way, the firm was able to determine how many days
an IE user was exposed to possible harm. When Microsoft released a patch
for an IE problem, Scanit "stopped the clock" on the period of
vulnerability.

• Mozilla and Firefox patched all vulnerabilities before hacker code
circulated. Scanit found that the Mozilla family of browsers, which share
the same code base, went only 26 days in 2004 during which a Windows user
was using a browser with a known security hole. Another 30 days involved
a weakness that was only in the Mac OS version. Scanit reports that each
vulnerability was patched before exploits were running on the Web. This
resulted in zero days when a Mozilla or Firefox user could have been
infected.

The Opera browser also experienced no days during which unpatched holes
faced actual exploits, but Scanit began keeping statistics on Opera only
since September 2004.

To see Scanit's visual timeline of these holes, exploits, and fixes,
visit the firm's Internet Explorer page. On that page, click "Next Page"
to see the timelines for Mozilla, Firefox, and Opera.

Firefox fixes take days, IE takes months

From the record to date, the Mozilla/Firefox team has shown that new
security discoveries typically result in a patch being released in only a
week or so.

This was certainly true in the case of Firefox version 1.0.4. The primary
security hole that was closed by that version was unexpectedly publicized
by the French Security Incident Response Team (FrSIRT) on May 5. The
Firefox patch was released only six days later. (The apparent discoverer
of the flaw, the Greyhats Security Group, had been working responsibly
with Firefox's development team and criticized the leak.)

Perhaps the responsiveness of the Mozilla development group will shame
Microsoft into fixing security holes much faster in the future. The
situation has become so bad that eEye Digital Security, a respected
consulting service, maintains an "upcoming advisories" page showing how
much time Microsoft is allowing critical problems that are reported to
the Redmond company to go uncorrected.

At present, eEye's count reveals that three critical unpatched issues
currently affect Microsoft's products. None of these have gone unpatched
longer than 60 days, the period after which eEye considers a patch to be
"overdue." But some critical, widely-known security holes went as long as
six months in 2003 and 2004 without an official fix being made available
by Microsoft.

Another security firm that tracks security holes in IE, Firefox, and many
other applications is Secunia, based in Copenhagen, Denmark. As of today,
Secunia reports that there are still 19 unpatched security flaws in IE,
the most severe of which is rated "highly critical." Firefox has only 4
unpatched flaws, all of which are rated "less critical" or "not
critical," the lowest severity rating. Opera has none.

Microsoft officials often excuse their tardiness in fixing security holes
in IE by saying that the code is so complex that any fix has a high
likelihood of breaking something else. Well, who integrated IE so tightly
into the operating system that the browser is so delicate? It's
Microsoft's own poor programming that causes much of the software giant's
very visible problems.

Microsoft employs some of the best software developers in the world. The
company enjoys a cash reserve of $35 billion and is highly profitable.
Yet a tiny company that builds open-source browser software is making the
Redmond giant look foolish and incompetent in securing its products.

I have no particular attachment to the Mozilla Foundation or its
products. If the foundation's browser software was a threat to Windows
users, I'd say so. At the present time, several serious unpatched holes
are known to exist in IE, while few or none plague Firefox. This isn't a
religious issue, it's just a fact.

The foundation announced two weeks ago that they'd surpassed 50 million
downloads of the free Firefox browser. The application is largely
responsible for knocking down IE from a 94% market share in May 2004 to
87% in April 2005, according to OneStat. That's a remarkable
accomplishment, considering that IE is free and comes preinstalled with
Windows. Sites with a base of expert Windows users report much higher
levels of Firefox usage.

How to keep Firefox upgraded

No matter how fast Firefox's developers update it, it doesn't do you any
good unless you've got the browser configured to notify you of updates.
This is a simple matter, but it's worth making sure you have it right:

• Enable update checking. In Firefox, click Tools, Options, Advanced.
Ensure that the selection for Periodically check for updates is on, both
for Firefox and for My Extensions and Themes. This is the default
setting, so most Firefox users will automatically get notices of updates.

• Check for upgrades manually, if desired. You should see a dialog box
informing you of new updates as the Mozilla Foundation releases them.
There's a random delay, however, so every user doesn't try to download a
new version on the same day. To check whether there's an update that
applies to you, click the red up-arrow that's in the upper-right toolbar
of the Firefox menu area.

• Download the latest version. If a dialog box tells you an update is
available, close the window, then open Firefox's download page. If you
want a version other than Windows U.S. English, click the Other Systems
and Languages link and select your preferred version. Download the
executable file to a temporary area of your hard disk, then close all
apps (including Firefox itself) and run the installer.

It's no longer necessary or recommended that you uninstall Firefox before
upgrading to a new version. A few glitches affected upgrades to versions
1.0.1 and 1.0.2, but this has been corrected since 1.0.3.

It's unfortunate that hackers are so attracted to browsers as a way to
take over users' computers. But that's where the money is, as bank robber
Willie Sutton once said. We have to accept a certain amount of upgrading
as the price of using complex Windows applications. But we can reduce the
threat to ourselves and others by using browsers that have a proven
record of rapid, responsible development."
 
J

John Corliss

elaich said:
For those of you who keep harping about the recent Firefox updates to fix
security flaws, as if the browser is suddenly not to be trusted, here's a
read that hopefully will open your eyes.

I'm quoting it because the original page contains many stories. The
original page is here:

http://windowssecrets.com/comp/050512/#story1

I agree. The main reason it looks like Firefox gets patched more is
because its development community reacts so quickly once a vulnerability
is identified.

Contrast this to Internet Explorer where security problems can remain
undealt with for weeks at a time or even totally ignored.

I only use IE when I'm dragged screaming and kicking to have to do so by
various websites that use ActiveX. Otherwise, I stick to good old Mozilla.
 
D

Dick Hazeleger

elaich said:
For those of you who keep harping about the recent Firefox updates to
fix security flaws, as if the browser is suddenly not to be trusted,
here's a read that hopefully will open your eyes.

Like I wrote before: It ain't religion, and it ain't a cult! It's a
piece of software, and as such it may have flaws! Period! You want a
read that *should* open your eyes? Check out Secunia this week, there
were a few others reported! Yes, IE can be very unsafe (insecure is
about a person), but so can FF, Opera, etc.

FYI: Reporting security related flaws in *any* piece of software is not
"harping" as you call it, it is part of the "information sharing" for
which the Internet is known!! Also consider this: A browser is claiming
to be the "safest browser around", yet at the same time there are
vulnerabilities known... now is that "creating a false sense of safety"
or not? IMO, it is; the information that was provided should have been
used to realize that *any* browser may have flaws which could have
security implications, and that there isn't such a thing as a "safe
browser"... IMHO people need to be aware of that and be alert on things
happening on their system.

The record for FF is still way much better than IE's record, I agree to
that immediately; but be aware that - with the growing use of FF - the
program will be a target for hackers more and more... whether we like
it or not!

Regards
Dick
 
O

omziff

I still have no idea why anyone in their right mind would prefer IE
over FF?

FF has an MDI interface, IE does not. FF is updated frequently, IE is
not. FF is standards compliant, IE is not. FF is extendable, IE is not.
The Mozilla folks take end user satisfaction/security seriously, MS
does not, etc, etc...
 
A

Aaron

Like I wrote before: It ain't religion, and it ain't a cult! It's a
piece of software, and as such it may have flaws! Period! You want a
read that *should* open your eyes? Check out Secunia this week, there
were a few others reported! Yes, IE can be very unsafe (insecure is
about a person), but so can FF, Opera, etc.

The point I guess is to forstall people who jump quickly to the
conclusion that because firefox isn't perfect, means it cannot be SAFER
than IE. And yes, we all know nothing is perfect, the problem is when
some use it to justify the stand that everything is worth using because
nothing is perfect.

FYI: Reporting security related flaws in *any* piece of software is not
"harping" as you call it, it is part of the "information sharing" for
which the Internet is known!! Also consider this: A browser is claiming
to be the "safest browser around", yet at the same time there are
vulnerabilities known... now is that "creating a false sense of safety"
or not?

How in the world did you jump from "safest browser" to no
vulnerabilities? This is what I meant about, when someone says IE is
unsafe compared to firefox/opera whatever, somehow the listener (you in
this case) seems to hear it as "firefox/opera is perfect and
bulletproof".

And when invariably some exploit is found, you come here and shout "I
told you so".

That is assuming anyone makes the claim of it being the safest browser.
It is arguable SAFER than IE. But I'm not sure if it's the safest.
 
B

Bob Adkins

For those of you who keep harping about the recent Firefox updates to fix
security flaws, as if the browser is suddenly not to be trusted, here's a
read that hopefully will open your eyes.

"Horribly"? Did it kill or maim anyone? :)

-- Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

The point I guess is to forstall people who jump quickly to the
conclusion that because firefox isn't perfect, means it cannot be SAFER
than IE. And yes, we all know nothing is perfect, the problem is when

So, now you're talking as though Firefox ISN'T perfect? You weren't talking
that way a few months ago! :)

FWIW, Firefox and IE are both plenty safe for me.

-- Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

I still have no idea why anyone in their right mind would prefer IE
over FF?

FF has an MDI interface, IE does not. FF is updated frequently, IE is
not. FF is standards compliant, IE is not. FF is extendable, IE is not.
The Mozilla folks take end user satisfaction/security seriously, MS
does not, etc, etc...

FF is in constant beta, IE is not. FF does not have to worry about breaking
10,000 pieces of software when it fixes something. FF does not have a
corporate reputation to protect.

-- Bob
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

So, now you're talking as though Firefox ISN'T perfect? You
weren't talking that way a few months ago! :)

Yes he was. You keep setting up the straw man of Firefox perfection
(with added smileys). Why?
FWIW, Firefox and IE are both plenty safe for me.

I guess because neither kill or maim people.
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

Firefox doesn't really have an MDI; Firefox has an SDI with tabs.
Opera has a true MDI, in which you can resize, cascade, or tile the
child windows.
FF is in constant beta, IE is not.

No, Firefox is not in beta.
FF does not have to worry about breaking 10,000 pieces of software
when it fixes something.

You mean all the intrawebs which are built around IE bugs, so that IE
has to keep supporting its legacy bugs? No, and not having to support
legacy bugs is one of the reasons Firefox improves so rapidly compared
to IE.
FF does not have a corporate reputation to protect.

The Mozilla Foundation is a public benefit coporation, incorporated in
California. I think you'll find its reputation to be better than the
one IE is "protecting".
 
D

Dick Hazeleger

Aaron said:
to >> fix security flaws, as if the browser is suddenly not to be
trusted, >> here's a read that hopefully will open your eyes.

The point I guess is to forstall people who jump quickly to the
conclusion that because firefox isn't perfect, means it cannot be
SAFER than IE. And yes, we all know nothing is perfect, the problem
is when some use it to justify the stand that everything is worth
using because nothing is perfect.



How in the world did you jump from "safest browser" to no
vulnerabilities? This is what I meant about, when someone says IE is
unsafe compared to firefox/opera whatever, somehow the listener (you
in this case) seems to hear it as "firefox/opera is perfect and
bulletproof".

And when invariably some exploit is found, you come here and shout "I
told you so".

That is assuming anyone makes the claim of it being the safest
browser. It is arguable SAFER than IE. But I'm not sure if it's the
safest.

Hi Aaron,

FYI (Unless they have changed that recently): The FF site was referring
to their browser as "the safest browser"... I was referring to that, my
apologies if my post looked "jumpy" because of that.

Let's get one thing straight though... I am not "shouting"... at least
not half as much as those who seem to think that FF (or any other
browser for that matter) really is "safe". Browsers, by the very nature
of the Internet today, are prime targets for crackers, phishers and
what else you can think of. The more a browser is being used by larger
amounts of people, the more it will become a target; and as such they
are unsafe!

Since this still is - the last time I looked - a NG in which "freeware
is presented and discussed" - I think it is a good thing to mention
flaws of this freeware as well; doing so not to talk in favor of IE
(which, we both agree on that, had and has its share of problems),
Opera or FF, or any other browser... but to inform people and make them
aware of the issues with their program. Not doing so would IMO leave
them in the false feeling that "it can't happen to me, because I use
browser XYZ"...

Now, please do refresh my memory... where in my posts did I write (and
I quote you from the above) "I told you so"??? I didn't... Can't you
take a post with information just for what it is, just because it
happens to concern your 'pet browser'? Please let's discuss this based
on the facts, and if a fact is that there is a flaw in a program...
then it should be possible to post information about it here, so that
everyone could benefit from that information, not just a few who read
that kind of stuff!!!

I hope I got my point across.

Regards
Dick
 
A

Aaron

Hi Aaron,

FYI (Unless they have changed that recently): The FF site was referring
to their browser as "the safest browser"... I was referring to that, my
apologies if my post looked "jumpy" because of that.

Dick, I'm afraid I will have to demand some proof of this claim. Where
exactly on the firefox official site, does it say it is safest? I see
"safer", " more safely" no safest.

Anyhow, even the "safest" browser is not 100% bulletproof, I'm sure you
agree.

Let's get one thing straight though... I am not "shouting"... at least
not half as much as those who seem to think that FF (or any other
browser for that matter) really is "safe". Browsers, by the very nature
of the Internet today, are prime targets for crackers, phishers and
what else you can think of. The more a browser is being used by larger
amounts of people, the more it will become a target; and as such they
are unsafe!

If by unsafe you mean it is not 100% bulletproof, I agree, so does any
reasonable person. The fustrating thing is that this invariably leads
some to concludes hence firefox is not safer. I just can't understand
this kind of logic.
Since this still is - the last time I looked - a NG in which "freeware
is presented and discussed" - I think it is a good thing to mention
flaws of this freeware as well; doing so not to talk in favor of IE
(which, we both agree on that, had and has its share of problems),
Opera or FF, or any other browser... but to inform people and make them
aware of the issues with their program. Not doing so would IMO leave
them in the false feeling that "it can't happen to me, because I use
browser XYZ"...

I have nothing against disclosure of the exploit. I think it's a good
thing.
Now, please do refresh my memory... where in my posts did I write (and
I quote you from the above) "I told you so"??? I didn't... Can't you
take a post with information just for what it is, just because it
happens to concern your 'pet browser'?

Do calm down Dick. Believe it or not I was not referring to you. I was
referring to the people that the OP's original post was meant to
forstall. You already agreed that firefox is probably safer even with
this flaw, so you are hopefully not one of those.




Aaron
 
A

Aaron

Bob, if that's true it won't be hard for you to give me a quote where I
say that :)

In fact, I keep stressing firefox is better not perfect, BECAUSE it's
pro-IE zealots like yourself that insist on holding firefox and whatever
other browser to a 100% perfect record so that you can knock it.

Of course, IE being worse, is something such people never bring up.

SAFER is not the same as perfect, I don't know why such simple logic
escapes people when they start discussing browsers.
Yes he was. You keep setting up the straw man of Firefox perfection
(with added smileys). Why?

Because he has problem with simple logic?
 
B

Bob Adkins

Bob, if that's true it won't be hard for you to give me a quote where I
say that :)

I never said you said that. I implied that's what you implied.
In fact, I keep stressing firefox is better not perfect, BECAUSE it's
pro-IE zealots like yourself that insist on holding firefox and whatever
other browser to a 100% perfect record so that you can knock it.

As I've said a several times on this news group, I am not a software zealot.
I simply use what A.) Works best for me today B.) What I personally like
best today. C.) I am the anti-software zealot.

I change software as often as some people change shorts. I bow or become
loyal to no software or other tool.
Of course, IE being worse, is something such people never bring up.

Since I have not been hurt by IE or Firefox in the past 2 years, it's a
non-issue to me.
SAFER is not the same as perfect, I don't know why such simple logic
escapes people when they start discussing browsers.


I agree with this. Perfect safety and security simply do not exist. At least
not in a useable product.
Because he has problem with simple logic?

Perhaps I'm too simple. If it works well for me, I don't care who makes it.
Yes, even that old devil Microsoft.

-- Bob
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

FYI (Unless they have changed that recently): The FF site was
referring to their browser as "the safest browser"... I was
referring to that, my apologies if my post looked "jumpy" because
of that.

Dick, I really don't think any mozilla.org page has ever called Firefox
"the safest browser". The Wayback Machine is having some tech
diffulties ATM, so I can't check, but I don't recall ever reading such
a thing there. It's easy enough to make the case that it's safer than
one particular browser, but there are many browsers whose safety is at
least comparable to Firefox's, and the mozilla.org folks know that.
 
M

Mel

»Q« said:
Dick, I really don't think any mozilla.org page has ever called Firefox
"the safest browser". The Wayback Machine is having some tech
diffulties ATM, so I can't check, but I don't recall ever reading such
a thing there. It's easy enough to make the case that it's safer than
one particular browser, but there are many browsers whose safety is at
least comparable to Firefox's, and the mozilla.org folks know that.
Well they do make the claim:-
"Firefox empowers you to browse faster, more safely and more efficiently than with any other browser"
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

Well they do make the claim:-
"Firefox empowers you to browse faster, more safely and more
efficiently than with any other browser"

Yes, but they have to roll all the criteria together to make it true.
(Not that I agree with them about it being true.)
 
A

Aaron

I never said you said that. I implied that's what you implied.

I'm equally open to you finding quotes where you think I "imply" that
firefox is perfect.

Keep dancing around your lies , Bob, I find them entertaining.

As I've said a several times on this news group, I am not a software
zealot. I simply use what A.) Works best for me today B.) What I
personally like best today. C.) I am the anti-software zealot.

You can say what you want, but your action speaks for itself.

I change software as often as some people change shorts. I bow or
become loyal to no software or other tool.

I'm sure you believe that.
Since I have not been hurt by IE or Firefox in the past 2 years, it's
a non-issue to me.

You haven't being hurt by firefox? Could have fooled me, how you go out
of your way to put firefox in a bad light by misleading statements that
have being refuted over and over again.
I agree with this. Perfect safety and security simply do not exist. At
least not in a useable product.

Yes, but you seem to miss the second part of the statement, which says,
safer is better.

Perhaps I'm too simple. If it works well for me, I don't care who
makes it. Yes, even that old devil Microsoft.

Here you go again, implying ....
 
B

Bob Adkins

Yes, but you seem to miss the second part of the statement, which says,
safer is better.



Here you go again, implying ....


Yes, yes, safer is better. Why should I even have to say that? Anyone and
everyone agrees to that.


Although I admit that FF is more secure than IE, the difference is not that
great to an experienced user. If one REALLY enjoys the features and speed of
his IE-based browser shell, it's perfectly fine to sacrifice a little
security for features and the "look and feel" he likes. You can make up the
loss of a little security by using common sense.

Many FF users are militant, childish, insecure, and very quick to defend FF
by making wild accusations (real and imagined) about MS, Bill Gates, and
Windows. Their constant railing gets irritating, and works in reverse (for
me anyway). So, I like to take a poke once in a while, because FF is not
perfect either.



-- Bob
 

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