Is Star Office 7 on topic since it is free to students and teachers?

N

Nadeem

John said:
Alan wrote:
'Fraid not, Alan. Freeware has to be free for everyone. This group
decided that when some antivirus program's license (I forget which one
it was) said that it couldn't be used by people in certain countries,
that it wasn't freeware. I even removed mention of the program from my
version of the F.A.Q.

So John, that means that programs like Adobe Reader aren't on topic - given
that as a US company it sticks to US law and forbids distribution to certain
countries/individuals. From the T&C's -

"8. Export Rules. You agree that the Software will not be shipped,
transferred or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by
the United States Export Administration Act or any other export laws,
restrictions or regulations (collectively the "Export Laws"). In addition,
if the Software is identified as export controlled items under the Export
Laws, you represent and warrant that you are not a citizen, or otherwise
located within, an embargoed nation (including without limitation Iran,
Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Cuba, North Korea, and Serbia) and that you are
not otherwise prohibited under the Export Laws from receiving the Software.
All rights to Use the Software are granted on condition that such rights are
forfeited if you fail to comply with the terms of this Agreement."

Please note that this applies to several items on the pricelessware list,
I've just picked on Adobe as an example.

Nadeem
 
G

Gordon Darling

No.

The word you're looking for is "piracy".

No it isn't. Read the GPL licence, the BSD licence, the Apache licence,
the Artistic licence and all the variants thereof. It's only the Mandrake
"Power Pack" product and above which have proprietary licences. The 3 disk
set is a mix of the GPL, Apache, Mozilla, etc licences.

Regards
Gordon
 
G

Gordon Darling

Yet, this is an interesting issue. Irfanview, for example, specifically
places limits on its free use. So does RagTime Solo. So, what are the
rules regarding acceptable limitations on freeware use. If SO7 is
available free to certain individuals for certain specified uses, how
is that different from Irfanview which is only available free for
certain specified uses, as is RagTime Solo? This is not trolling, it
is an attempt to get a distinction that eludes me clarified.

Even more interesting is the fact that OpenOffice.org is, by the
definition of some of the fanatics, "crippleware" since it doesn't include
the Adabas database, templates, and fonts that Star Office has.

Regards
Gordon
 
G

Gordon Darling

OpenOffice was Star Office until a version or two ago. When Star started
charging for ordinary users, OO vwas developed separately for free.

Yep. Well aware of the the history of the product(s). I've used versions
of Star Office even before Sun bought it. It isn't developed seperately by
the way. It's the same core codebase and Sun developers contribute to the
codebase as do OpenSource programmers.

In my case I was interested as there is a certain reluctance in some
educational establishments here in the UK to use an "unknown brand" and it
may be easier to push a Sun product. There are other problems to do with
centralised directions on Software acquisition but that's another can of
worms. Any way I can push Open source I'll use!

Regards
Gordon
 
R

REMbranded

I suspect not, but I am only guessing. However, it reminds me to
mention a little scam I have going to get that discount and free edu
softwares. I sign up with the community college each fall and take a
single course to get the student card. This year I am taking "Astral
Projection - A New Reality" taught by Mistress Starfire. Looks like
all I will have to do to pass the course is look really, really stoned
and nod knowingly to everything the Mistress says. Sweet.

Are there any openings in that class?

WSFTP is a great freeware program. However, it is only provided as
freeware to selected groups of people. one of which is students, etc.
and another is home users.

"LICENSE
Ipswitch grants you a non-exclusive license to use the Software free
of charge if a) you are a student, faculty member or staff member of
an educational institution (K-12, junior college, college or
university); b) you are a United States federal, state or local
government employee; or c) your use of the Software is exclusively at
home for non-commercial purposes. Government contractors are not
considered government employees for the purposes of this Agreement. If
you do not meet the requirements for free use of the Software, you may
use the Software for up to fifteen days for the purpose of evaluating
whether to purchase a license to the commercial version of WS_FTP."

It is freeware as directed by the authors. A few years back it was
common to see freeware programs available to everyone except for any
sort of military usage. Obviously the authors wishes were not to
contribute to the military in any way, but to make the program
available for everyone else.

WSFTP and Star Office both seem to offer the programs as freeware to
selected groups in hopes that the experience will prompt them to
consider upgrading to the non-freeware versions. I've had no freeware
SS officers show up to check my student ID. They did not even ask
where I was going to school. It is an honesty thing entirely. I'm
also a home user of course.

These are all freeware programs as defined by the license agreements.

They may not be freeware to everyone, but that's the breaks sometimes.
The invisible break point is somewhere out there where the license
stifles the ability for the program to be useful to a nominal amount
of people, such as "people born in 1947 who are named Elroy." And even
this select group will consider the program freeware, although it
probably won't pass the mustard here <G>. That is simply too narrow
to be useful to the group an users here at large.

As always there are individual opinions and nailing down a concise set
of conditions for the group definition is elusive. WSFTP is listed on
the PW page as it should be, even though people who use a computer in
a library are excluded by the license agreement. Home users who might
use it to update a commercial site are also specifically excluded in
the license. I don't consider past decisions as binding. They were
simply past decisions about a particular point and it is very doubtful
that they were unanimous.

I'm thankful for freewares with little or no restrictions, but I
cannot turn a blind eye to programs like WSFTP, which are great
programs available to large targeted audiences. It obviously made the
cut even though not everyone can use it freely.

A license that allows students and faculties to use the program freely
affects a very large group of people and this passes my muster. I have
no qualms with the discussion of such programs. I think the
limitations in the license should be pointed out with prominence
though to avoid confusion and lengthy debates.

It's been awhile. I'm reading in, but still on a sabbatical <G>. I
hope to return on the project I began and as a daily guest here pretty
soon. The weather is SO gorgeous, and like Henk I think I might have
been spending a bit too much time on the puter and not enough with my
loved ones. It's nice to take time to smell the, uh, ragweed and
peacefully ponder life in a more general sense. It is refreshing and
envigorating. This is the core I'm drawn to though and within a matter
of time I'll begin anew.
 
R

Roger RamJet

Are there any openings in that class?
There are a few, but you would have to leave the sunny climes of
Nacogdoches for the winter rains of Vancouver Island. Doubtful that
would be a fair trade. ;-) As for the rest, I assume software is
freeware if I don't have to pay for it and I'm not about to start a
whole classification system to suit the whims of the moment.
Registerware, expires in two years ware, semi-crippleware and so on
becomes too much to keep track of. I just post an app that I feel may
do the job for someone and they don't have to get out their wallet
for. To me, that's good enough. Of course, I always have my industrial
strength pair of fire retardant underoos handy in case I screw up. A
wise man once said: "don't sweat the details". Words to live by.
 
J

John Corliss

Nadeem said:
So John, that means that programs like Adobe Reader aren't on topic - given
that as a US company it sticks to US law and forbids distribution to certain
countries/individuals. From the T&C's -

"8. Export Rules. You agree that the Software will not be shipped,
transferred or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by
the United States Export Administration Act or any other export laws,
restrictions or regulations (collectively the "Export Laws"). In addition,
if the Software is identified as export controlled items under the Export
Laws, you represent and warrant that you are not a citizen, or otherwise
located within, an embargoed nation (including without limitation Iran,
Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Cuba, North Korea, and Serbia) and that you are
not otherwise prohibited under the Export Laws from receiving the Software.
All rights to Use the Software are granted on condition that such rights are
forfeited if you fail to comply with the terms of this Agreement."

Please note that this applies to several items on the pricelessware list,
I've just picked on Adobe as an example.

Nadeem

You may have a very salient point, Nadeem. And as I said, it was the
group's decision.

--
Regards from John Corliss
alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.:
http://www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/F.A.Q./FrameSet1.html
Note that I can't see any of Andy Mabbett's troll posts
because I have him killfiled.
 
V

Vic Dura

Even more interesting is the fact that OpenOffice.org is, by the
definition of some of the fanatics, "crippleware" since it doesn't include
the Adabas database, templates, and fonts that Star Office has.

As applied by a few here, in order to be freeware a program must not
have any restrictions to anyone at anytime or anyplace. That's how I
interpret their posts (as opposed to the info in the FAQs) to this NG
over the past few years.

IMO those are ridiculously restrictive limitations that are counter
productive to a reasonably functioning NG. Fortunately most folks here
ignore them and consider freeware to be *software which can be legally
obtained in accordance with the EULA without monetary payment to the
author and/or copyright holder*.

Now that is what I consider to be a simple working definition of
freeware that adequately expresses the intent of the NG. Let me write
that again for emphasis.

==========

Freeware is software which can be legally obtained in accordance with
the EULA without monetary payment to the author and/or copyright
holder.

==========

With a definition like that we don't need a squad of enforcers beating
people over the head with a three page FAQ full of convoluted
descriptions, conditions, restrictions and exceptions.
 
G

Gordon Darling

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:25:27 -0500, Vic Dura wrote:


snip>
Freeware is software which can be legally obtained in accordance with
the EULA without monetary payment to the author and/or copyright
holder.

==========

With a definition like that we don't need a squad of enforcers beating
people over the head with a three page FAQ full of convoluted
descriptions, conditions, restrictions and exceptions.

You're preaching to the choir Vic <grin>.

Regards
Gordon
 
A

Andy Mabbett

John Corliss said:
'Fraid not, Alan. Freeware has to be free for everyone.

So you won't be mentioning IrfanView again, then? Or PGP?

You really are clueless.
 
A

Andy Mabbett

John Corliss said:
The majority of this group agrees that there are other ways of paying
for software than simply money.

Prove it.

[snip Corliss' dishonest sig]
 
A

Andy Mabbett

Blinky the said:
And as anyone who's been here more than eight minutes (trolling time
doesn't count) knows, the group's focus is on the individual user.

You're making things up.
Note that John didn't say "for every corporate entity".

No, he said "everyone".
 
A

Andy Mabbett

Blinky the said:
My use of "trolling" was a generic disqualification.

....of any dissenting opinion, however valid.

Just like when Corliss uses it.

You make a lovely couple.
 
D

Darrien

No it isn't. Read the GPL licence, the BSD licence, the Apache licence,
the Artistic licence and all the variants thereof. It's only the
Mandrake "Power Pack" product and above which have proprietary licences.
The 3 disk set is a mix of the GPL, Apache, Mozilla, etc licences.

Last time I checked, the $70 version of Mandrake *was* the Power pack.
 
S

Susan Bugher

They may not be freeware to everyone, but that's the breaks sometimes.
The invisible break point is somewhere out there where the license
stifles the ability for the program to be useful to a nominal amount
of people, such as "people born in 1947 who are named Elroy." And even
this select group will consider the program freeware, although it
probably won't pass the mustard here <G>. That is simply too narrow
to be useful to the group an users here at large.

"people born in 1947 who are named Elroy." - hee, hee - I was thinking
along those line too - also about WIN3x programs, IE only programs,
broadband vs. dial-up etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

It's sure nice when people furnish information about limitations - saves
a lot of wasted effort . . . :)

Susan
 
A

Andy Mabbett

Blinky the said:
So they can download them on their personal computers, like I do.

You're approaching the style of those who've argued that since everyone
can't get a free computer, and computers are necessary to run software,
there can't be any such thing as freeware. And don't forget the cost
of electricity (batteries *or* AC) and a connection.

Utter nonsense.

I sit here, at home, at my PC, with IrfanView installed. If I want to
resize a picture I recently took, of a local building, for my own web
page, I can use IrfanView and be within the terms of its license. Under
any sensible definition *but not, of course, Corliss'), it's freeware.

If I am then asked to provide a picture of that building for a website
I'm being paid to produce, IrfanView's licence requires me to register
my copy, before I use it.

Nothing about free computers or electricity is involved.
Do you *really* want to join that club?

Actually, I don't care -- join it if you wish.

[plonk]

You seem to have learned your debating style from Corliss :-(
 
J

Jordan

Andy said:
Blinky the said:
So they can download them on their personal computers, like I do.

You're approaching the style of those who've argued that since
everyone can't get a free computer, and computers are necessary to
run software, there can't be any such thing as freeware. And don't
forget the cost of electricity (batteries *or* AC) and a connection.

Utter nonsense.

I sit here, at home, at my PC, with IrfanView installed. If I want to
resize a picture I recently took, of a local building, for my own web
page, I can use IrfanView and be within the terms of its license.
Under any sensible definition *but not, of course, Corliss'), it's
freeware.

If I am then asked to provide a picture of that building for a website
I'm being paid to produce, IrfanView's licence requires me to register
my copy, before I use it.

Nothing about free computers or electricity is involved.
Do you *really* want to join that club?

Actually, I don't care -- join it if you wish.

[plonk]

You seem to have learned your debating style from Corliss :-(

Yeah, I had no idea why Winky's response was so off the wall. I was simply
trying to point out examples of freeware having limitations. I guess he
didn't like the facts I brought to light so he resorted to a childish
retort.
 

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