M
Mac Cool
ToolPackinMama:
Quality control, personalization, and upgradeability are good reasons to
build your own, price isn't.
Quality control, personalization, and upgradeability are good reasons to
build your own, price isn't.
M
Mac Cool
Ruel Smith:
The Live! cards had problems working on VIA boards also. They were
probably the buggiest cards ever produced.
The Live! cards had problems working on VIA boards also. They were
probably the buggiest cards ever produced.
Y
ya ya
yeah i looked at the audigy box and it said something like for 100%
intel motherboard compatible or some such nonsense.
luckily i got over the soundblaster hype a long time ago.
J
Jim
News to me. Recognized immediately and plays fine with my Mandrake
Linux box.
T
ToolPackinMama
Mac said:
First of all what do you mean "no cheap components"? Name me a Dell PC
that uses NFORCE2 motherboards and AMD CPUs, to start with, because
that's what I would be using. Are rebates and things-on-sale allowed?
If I have a choice between a 8.00 FDD and a 10.00 one must I choose the
10.00 one to avoid the cheaper one? BTW, who says that Dell doesn't use
cheap components? Don't try to pull anything, because I have seen
what's inside of Dells, and it's nothing special. It ain't silver and
gold in there, buddy. Dell uses cheap components. I know, because I
have seen it. They put it in an uncessarily heavy case to make it seem
more substantial, but horsemeat is horsemeat under the hide.
Define mid-line quality? By what measure is something "mid-line
quality"? Why pay mid-line prices when the primary objective is to save
money? If I have a choice between a 8.00 FDD, a 10.00 one, and a 12.00
one, must I choose the 10.00 one because it's "mid-line quality"?
BTW, the Dell must be purchased online and shipping/taxes etc. must
count toward the total price. That's fair, because I'm buying all my
parts online and paying shipping for them.
Is it OK to already own the OS, or do I have to buy another one? You
see, in real life, I already own a CRT, a keyboard, a mouse, a printer,
and all the software I would need. Why pay for all that stuff twice,
just because I want to upgrade my motherboard? BTW, Dells don't come
with a proper OS disk, they come with a crummy "recovery disk", right?
You can't use that "recovery disk" like you can use a full OS disk.
Since I'm using a full OS disk, I insist to be fair that the Dell owner
must also pay for one.
If you want to upgrade the motherboard in a Dell, you have to buy a
whole new Dell. Homebuilders don't have to do that. How cheaply can
you put an optional new motherboard in your Dell without voiding your
warranty? Oops, I mean how long will it take for the approved Dell
techies to do it for you, and how much will they charge - a) for their
time, and b) for the motherboard? BTW, I would have a virtually
unlimited set of choices for my new motherboard, but the Dell owner?
Probably not.
No refurbs. That seems unnecessarily restrictive. I'm not currently
using any refurbs, but I reserve the right to do so, because in this
exercise the object is to save money.
It's very difficult to match a system part for part and point for
point. I'm not going to use a Western Digital HD just because Dell uses
them. I prefer Seagate drives.
Here's how it works: You already have a computer, but you want a fast
one, so you buy a cheap new case that comes with a perfectly decent
power supply. You buy a perfectly decent motherboard, retail CPU, and
compatible RAM. You put your drives from your old computer into your
"new" one, and for under 300 dollars you have given yourself a new
computer. Next payday, you indulge yourself in another new component,
and bit by bit, you upgrade the whole thing.
You never pay interest rates on the credit card, because you pay cash
for all of this. You don't buy the OS twice because you already own it.
In real life, I rarely start cold with nothing, no OS, no keyboard,
NOTHING - but for the purposes of the exercise, sure.
First name me a reference Dell PC with a NFORCE2 mobo and an AMD CPU,
because that's what I will be using. And provide a detailed list of all
the junk bloatware that the the Dell comes with, so I can completely
ignore most of it, because I won't be paying one dime for any of it.
T
ToolPackinMama
Mac said:
I disagree.
T
ToolPackinMama
POWMAX 2-Tone Mid Tower ATX Case with 400W Power Supply, Model "769-5" -
RETAIL $29.99
BIOSTAR "M7NCG 400" nForce2 IGP Motherboard for AMD Socket A CPU -
RETAIL $63.00
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ "Barton", 400MHz FSB, 512K Cache Processor - Retail
$199.00
Panram 184-Pin 256MB DDR PC-3200, Model PRA400/256S - OEM ($39.00 X 2)
$78.00
SONY Beige 1.44MB 3.5Inch Floppy Disk Drive, Model MPF920, OEM $9.50
Seagate 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model ST380011A, OEM $65.00
KEYBOARD-2000 KB-118W Beige Keyboard PS/2 104keys - RETAIL $4.00
ViewSonic E70m 17" CRT Monitor w/ Speakers - RETAIL $138.00
POWMAX Beige Optical Scroll Mouse PS/2 - RETAIL $4.99
Optorite 8X DVD+RW/-RW Drive Model DD0405, Retail $48.00
Linspire 2 CD OEM Edition $12.99
Generic 24-Inch 3-Connector Teflon Coated IDE True ATA 133/ 100 Flat
Cable, Model "21AT-10124-100" - OEM $2.99
Generic 20-Inch Flat 2-Connector Floppy drive Cable - OEM $1.25
Subtotal $656.71
Shipping & Handling: $ 43.93
Total: $ 700.64
OK, now find me a comparable Dell for less. Include shipping costs for
computer and monitor.
I went to the Dell site, and for something ~sort of similar~ they wanted
to charge me $848.00, and that included free shipping. Even if I used
Win XP, my homebuilt would still be cheaper. I also believe it would be
a better machine.
RETAIL $29.99
BIOSTAR "M7NCG 400" nForce2 IGP Motherboard for AMD Socket A CPU -
RETAIL $63.00
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ "Barton", 400MHz FSB, 512K Cache Processor - Retail
$199.00
Panram 184-Pin 256MB DDR PC-3200, Model PRA400/256S - OEM ($39.00 X 2)
$78.00
SONY Beige 1.44MB 3.5Inch Floppy Disk Drive, Model MPF920, OEM $9.50
Seagate 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model ST380011A, OEM $65.00
KEYBOARD-2000 KB-118W Beige Keyboard PS/2 104keys - RETAIL $4.00
ViewSonic E70m 17" CRT Monitor w/ Speakers - RETAIL $138.00
POWMAX Beige Optical Scroll Mouse PS/2 - RETAIL $4.99
Optorite 8X DVD+RW/-RW Drive Model DD0405, Retail $48.00
Linspire 2 CD OEM Edition $12.99
Generic 24-Inch 3-Connector Teflon Coated IDE True ATA 133/ 100 Flat
Cable, Model "21AT-10124-100" - OEM $2.99
Generic 20-Inch Flat 2-Connector Floppy drive Cable - OEM $1.25
Subtotal $656.71
Shipping & Handling: $ 43.93
Total: $ 700.64
OK, now find me a comparable Dell for less. Include shipping costs for
computer and monitor.
I went to the Dell site, and for something ~sort of similar~ they wanted
to charge me $848.00, and that included free shipping. Even if I used
Win XP, my homebuilt would still be cheaper. I also believe it would be
a better machine.
T
ToolPackinMama
ToolPackinMama said:
OK, now let's really start to shave the price down. 512 MB of RAM is a
luxury, not a necessity, if all you are doing is surfing the web and
sending email, so let's drop one stick of RAM and save 39 bucks. 80
gigs is not really necessary for your average web-surfer, so let's get
a 40G. drive instead, and drop the price some more. A 15" monitor is
good enough, and they are cheaper. A common CD-RW drive is good
enough. I could probably get by with a retail pack of a Athlon XP
that's 333 FSB, and that would cost less than half as much.
Do I settle for that? Heck no. I'm frugal, but I still want as nice a
PC as I can afford. I might start with something like the above, but I
don't stop there. Come payday, I'm popping in more RAM... and etc.
The nice thing is, I can add to the PC I built, upgrading it at will -
any ding-dong way that I please - as my circumstances allow. AND every
single component in it has it's own warranty. With the Dell, you pay
for the warranty on the whole system, and they don't let you choose to
not pay for that. So you pay for that. If you get the cheap 3 month
option, you are SOL after three months, no matter what goes wrong. With
my homebuilt, each part inside has its own warranty, and that's already
included in the price.
Do I want a ATI All-in-wonder video card? I can add one. Do I want a
fancier speaker system? I can get one. If I buy them locally, I don't
pay shipping. How much does installation cost? Why nothing, because I
Do It Myself.
Can I get a fancy colored case with a window and colored lights? With a
homebuilt, yes, and it's not even much more expensive. With a Dell, NO,
not at any price.
Choice, choice, choice, AND warranty, warranty, warranty AND price,
price, price. Plus I have more freedom and more fun. That's why I build
my own.
Dell can go completely out of business for all I care. Their machines
are a bitch to work on. Just opening the fricking case is an
adventure. And why do their stupid cases have to weigh so much? It's
like there is a back of rocks in each one. The way things are screwed
together inside is nuts. Them and Compaq can both go to Hell, IMHO.
T
ToolPackinMama
ToolPackinMama said:
BAG of rocks, I meant to say.
M
Mac Cool
No links, AMD processor, no video card, no sound card, generic memory,
generic case, a slower DVD burner, a lower quality hard drive, no
operating system, no software; overall a resounding failure, but a good
try.
Like I said, price is the wrong reason to build your own.
generic case, a slower DVD burner, a lower quality hard drive, no
operating system, no software; overall a resounding failure, but a good
try.
Like I said, price is the wrong reason to build your own.
T
ToolPackinMama
Mac said:
No LINKS? Newegg.com
You betcha!
Hello? Onboard vid and sound.
Seagate is NOT "lower quality".
, no
Linspire? Wake up.
Included with Linspire. Have you ever heard of Linspire? Apparently
not.
You are complete wrong about that. Care to try again, this time wth
your brain turn ON?
T
ToolPackinMama
Mac said:
Compared to what? Be specific.
T
ToolPackinMama
ToolPackinMama said:
Technically, you haven't even presented your side of the argument yet.
If you are saying it's over already, then I win by default. Something
beats nothing, therefore I win.
D
David Besack
SoundBlaster Live! Value card and no one with one of
Some stuff got snipped out. It is the Dell OEM version of the SB Live that
did not work with Linux. That was the point - that Dell may not be a good
choice if you want to run Linux because of their policy of not only giving
you OEM parts, but of stripping them down into something virutally unusable
outside of their "intended" use.
Some stuff got snipped out. It is the Dell OEM version of the SB Live that
did not work with Linux. That was the point - that Dell may not be a good
choice if you want to run Linux because of their policy of not only giving
you OEM parts, but of stripping them down into something virutally unusable
outside of their "intended" use.
D
David Besack
Subtotal $656.71
That was my experience too. I speced everything out, went to Dell, they
would have charged me about $1200 for a system I put together for $1100.
That's including a 17" LCD. Yes, I would have gotten one year of "support",
if being treated like an idiot by someone on the other side of the globe can
be considered support. But in return for no support, I got better
components, original manufacturer warranties (3 years for a hard drive is
nothing to sneer at), better quality RAM (Giel ultra), a 430W Antec PSU, a
case that actually has a sensible fan system... I could go on. Lots of
other parts that were better name brands such as a WD HDD instead of the
Death Stars Dell uses.
Basically, in *addition* to saving a little cash, I got exactly what I
wanted. The only downside is it took me a while to figure out the mobo/case
wiring, because I was new at it, and it was several hours of twiddling
before I had all the parts together and running. And I'm not even sure I'd
call that a downside, considering how much I learned doing it.
That was my experience too. I speced everything out, went to Dell, they
would have charged me about $1200 for a system I put together for $1100.
That's including a 17" LCD. Yes, I would have gotten one year of "support",
if being treated like an idiot by someone on the other side of the globe can
be considered support. But in return for no support, I got better
components, original manufacturer warranties (3 years for a hard drive is
nothing to sneer at), better quality RAM (Giel ultra), a 430W Antec PSU, a
case that actually has a sensible fan system... I could go on. Lots of
other parts that were better name brands such as a WD HDD instead of the
Death Stars Dell uses.
Basically, in *addition* to saving a little cash, I got exactly what I
wanted. The only downside is it took me a while to figure out the mobo/case
wiring, because I was new at it, and it was several hours of twiddling
before I had all the parts together and running. And I'm not even sure I'd
call that a downside, considering how much I learned doing it.
A
Al Smith
Considering I want to get a relatively inexpensive machine, what would
I don't like to pay for what I don't need. When you buy a retail
computer, you get an OS, and have to pay the Microsoft tax, along
with software you probably don't want.
Plus, there are often weirdnesses in the hardware. I see on the
sites that sell power supplies that Dell uses some sort of strange
protrietary power supply that makes it awkward to upgrade.
Homebuilt systems usually cost more than the cheapest generic
computer brands, but that's because when you build it yourself,
you use quality parts. Speed is determined by what's in the box --
but speed isn't everything. You also have to look at reliability
over the long term, and the warranties that are provided, and
upgradeability, and features.
When you build yourself, you can pick and choose. I decided to go
for a cheaper box, so that I could put my money into a good
motherboard and a good video card. That's not the decision
everyone would make, but when you build it yourself, you get to
make those kinds of decisions.
I don't like to pay for what I don't need. When you buy a retail
computer, you get an OS, and have to pay the Microsoft tax, along
with software you probably don't want.
Plus, there are often weirdnesses in the hardware. I see on the
sites that sell power supplies that Dell uses some sort of strange
protrietary power supply that makes it awkward to upgrade.
Homebuilt systems usually cost more than the cheapest generic
computer brands, but that's because when you build it yourself,
you use quality parts. Speed is determined by what's in the box --
but speed isn't everything. You also have to look at reliability
over the long term, and the warranties that are provided, and
upgradeability, and features.
When you build yourself, you can pick and choose. I decided to go
for a cheaper box, so that I could put my money into a good
motherboard and a good video card. That's not the decision
everyone would make, but when you build it yourself, you get to
make those kinds of decisions.
J
JAD
price ALONE is not a reason
and you know you can go to far in worrying about it. End up with an
ESC,FIC or some other ungodly MB. Now you have to go through 'luck of
the draw' syndrome. Then you might as well have a dell. We all know
'we get what we pay for' and on top of that there are no guaranties
that either experience will be a good one. One should expect a fair
price, for whatever quality you buy into. Not paying ATI / nvidia
price for some off the wall, bulk purchased capture card.
Nobody plays by the rules, you can't cause as soon as you purchase
that over priced component, you have to pass it on the your customer.
Most times its their decision, but even still the 'gouge' has been
done. You end up being the middleman for the crime.
I have noticed that once an AMD system builder gets that stupid "bang
for the buck' complex, he/she is buying ALBATROSS(my perception of
albatron) E-ventually C-rashed S-ystem, F-ried I-nternal C-omponents
15$ MB's and bootleg OS's to prove how cheap it is. Starting out that
way, brings them here.
and you know you can go to far in worrying about it. End up with an
ESC,FIC or some other ungodly MB. Now you have to go through 'luck of
the draw' syndrome. Then you might as well have a dell. We all know
'we get what we pay for' and on top of that there are no guaranties
that either experience will be a good one. One should expect a fair
price, for whatever quality you buy into. Not paying ATI / nvidia
price for some off the wall, bulk purchased capture card.
Nobody plays by the rules, you can't cause as soon as you purchase
that over priced component, you have to pass it on the your customer.
Most times its their decision, but even still the 'gouge' has been
done. You end up being the middleman for the crime.
I have noticed that once an AMD system builder gets that stupid "bang
for the buck' complex, he/she is buying ALBATROSS(my perception of
albatron) E-ventually C-rashed S-ystem, F-ried I-nternal C-omponents
15$ MB's and bootleg OS's to prove how cheap it is. Starting out that
way, brings them here.
A
Al Smith
I build my own but never all at once so my costs might be lower, I just
ToolPackinMama! You've got a life outside Trek!
ToolPackinMama! You've got a life outside Trek!
A
Al Smith
In my experience, Norton Antivirus slows the whole PC down, in a manner
My new Asus motherboard came bundled with PC-Cillin antivirus. I
figured I'd try it out, since it was free. I took it off in half
an hour. It wanted me to register for virus definition updates,
and it would only have been good for a year, anyway. I put AVG on
instead. I don't know if AVG has the best detection, but it is the
best antivirus when it comes to getting along with other software
and not bugging you.
My new Asus motherboard came bundled with PC-Cillin antivirus. I
figured I'd try it out, since it was free. I took it off in half
an hour. It wanted me to register for virus definition updates,
and it would only have been good for a year, anyway. I put AVG on
instead. I don't know if AVG has the best detection, but it is the
best antivirus when it comes to getting along with other software
and not bugging you.
J
jaster
Technically, you haven't even presented your side of the argument yet. If
you are saying it's over already, then I win by default. Something beats
nothing, therefore I win.
Sorry but I agree with Mac Cool and I didn't see where you mentioned
Newegg in your specification post.
Onboard video is not equivalent to an
128MB DDR ATI RADEON 9800 PRO w/ TV-Out and DVI
266MB RAM is not equivalent to 512MB
Onboard sound is not equivalent to Sound
Blaster Audigy2 w/Dolby 5.1 (with hardware DSP chip)
8x DVD+/-RW is not equivalent to a 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+RW/+R) w/double
layer write capability (9,4Gb)
I applaud Linspire but it is not equivalent to XP Home
You are missing Integrated Intel® PRO 10/100 Ethernet Modem, a 56K
PCI Data Fax Modem and IEEE 1394
An XP 3200 is better than a 2.8 Pentium
A 80Gb HD is better than a 40Gb (but if you order from Dell you can
upgrade to 80Gb for free).
A lot of arguments in this thread are solely related to eMachines,
HP/Compaq and Dell but there are lots of PC manufacturers selling better
PCs than those vendors for less money with 1 yr warranties.
In a discussion of pre-built vs. home built these should be considered.
Wasn't everyone's first PC a pre-built?