cli8 vs bci6 vs c6/c3 (aftermarket)

[measekite]

I would say this so far, the blacks arn't the same colour.

ITS COLOR NOT COLOUR

 

[measekite]

OLD MARTOON DA TROUT IS JERKING OFF CIVET DA KAT WID HIS PEE H DEE AGAIN

 

[measekite]

<snip>

As I probably shouldn've,

DEN DON'T

from what I've gathered, there should be no harm
in running pigment ink though a dye head...

DAT CAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW. GIVING ADVICE SO THE UDDER DING DONGS GET A
CLOGGED HEAD

The result, so far
NOT

so good.

I'm using my ip6600d (with swapped chips yet again), but I removed what was
left in the cartridge (as much as I could) and put the pigment black ink
into it (gonna experiment as much as I can while I got a warranty )

SURE DO EVERYTHING THAT WILL RAISE THE PRICES TO OTHERS. DATS YOUR KIND

and
printed a couple hundred pages of black text.

That all went fine..

So as I didn't leave my other ink there to test, I now have pigment ink in
my ip6600d.


I wouldn't reccomend anyone else try this..

OF COURSE NOT

but from what I been finding out..

Well, when I had my epson 1160 with black, and 3 different shades of grey,
and it went forever like that,

THATS WHY HE BOUGHT A CANON

really proves as long as the ink is going to
fit, not dry, and react correct to the nozzles technology, anything will do
(as long as the colours correct of course)

So give me a week till anyone jumps in and asks technicals or does it
aswell, in a weeks time I'll tell ya wether I have a new ip6600d or still
going strong

If so, I know what inks I'll be calibrating for and using when the pixma
9500pro inks are out
thats if I don;t just get the 9500pro

NOW HE IS GOING TO RUIN AN EXPENSIVE PRINTER

 

[measekite]

This is this manufacturer of ink only, but I'd imagine most are doing the
identical thing..

Theres actually not that many inks..
Basically, when an ink is improved, as long as the colours the same, and it
reacts the same way in the printhead, it will work in all the older ones.

ONLY THE INNER CIRCLE OF THE OEMS KNOW NOT CIVET DA KAT

C3 colours do the BCI3e(cmy), BCI6(cmy), CLI8(cmy), BCI24(cyan), CL41/51
So in effect, if the ink is goodenough (not much chance it isn't, ink isn't
that fancy) all those should be compatible.

The C4 colours are the BC01, BC02, so on...

I've researched the inks a bit more than I usually would have, more so
under my own curiosity

DID NOT KILL CIVET DA KAT

 

[measekite]

CIVET DA KAT IS PEEING ALL OVER MARKING HIS TERRITORY

 

[measekite]

NOW BURTIE FURTIE HAS GONE BEZERK. TRYING TO SCREEW DA COMPANY WID CIVET
DA KAT

 

[measekite]

YOU DON'T. BUY WHAT CANON SAYS. I AM GLAD ALL OF YOU IDIOTS ARE HAVING
A HARD TIME WITH THE NEW PRINTERS. CANON DID SOMETHING RIGHT.

 

[Yianni]

This is this manufacturer of ink only, but I'd imagine most are doing the

identical thing..
Theres actually not that many inks..
Basically, when an ink is improved, as long as the colours the same, and
it
reacts the same way in the printhead, it will work in all the older ones.

Thank you for your reply. Just another question; acording to your experience
from both printers, and despite of the ink structure, do you think that the
cli8 and bci6 ink *colors* are same?

 

[cvt]

Exactly what I meant. BTW: CLI-8 and BCI-6 look almost the same
(exception: obviously the chip). Howeber, Cartridges CLI-8 fit
physically into the BCI-6 slots, but not the other way round.
Is there a difference between BCI-3 and BCI-6?



And you did not find any difference between BCI-3e and BCI-6?

I was comparing the bci-6 cli-8. And there are no 'colour' differences
between them.
The only actual BCI-3e cart I have is the black in the MP780 and the
i560, I have no printers with colour BCI3e carts, so are simply going
from what I've read, no actual comparison.

If you want to know more about the printheads best place is spend some
time on the patents site.

I did not understand it.


I meant BCI-3e vs. BCI-6, althugh I don't know what kind of improvement
happened vom BCI-3 to BCI-3e and from BCI-5 to BCI-6.

All those comments for dye ink. Pigmented black is a perfectly different
story.

- Martin

BCI5 -> BCI6 was ink improvement.. nothing else..
Even as stated by canon themselves,
The ink was improved, needed new drivers (calibration as in other words),
and use the BCI-6 carts, the BCI-5 carts were discontinued when the BCI-6
became available.

 

[measekite]

A CONVERSATION OF STUPIDITY BETWEEN DA TROUT AND DA KAT

 

[cvt]

Thank you for your reply. Just another question; acording to your
experience from both printers, and despite of the ink structure, do
you think that the cli8 and bci6 ink *colors* are same?

Not identical..
For example..
Yellow CLI-8 = ~246,135,4 (RGB)
Yellow BCI-6 = ~243,136,1 (RGB)
(each different scanner, and paper will show these values to be different)

So close to identical its unnoticable.
The difference is much more from just using 1 paper to another.
And even if it was 5x more than that, is still easily calibrated.

Looking at the 2 prints, you can't tell the difference.

 

[Martin Trautmann]

I was comparing the bci-6 cli-8. And there are no 'colour' differences
between them

I've seen multiple reports on major differences for magenta and minor
differences otherwise.

You did a side-by-side-comparison and had no difference!?

BCI5 -> BCI6 was ink improvement.. nothing else..

Yes, as for BCI3 -> BCI-3e

Even as stated by canon themselves,
The ink was improved, needed new drivers (calibration as in other words),

Yes, showing that there actually is a color difference

and use the BCI-6 carts, the BCI-5 carts were discontinued when the BCI-6
became available.

As where the BCI3.

- Martin

 

[cvt]

DEN DON'T

How else can one learn if the information is kept disclosed and noone
else has tried.
Oh, we don't, we beleive what the company says, and do as we are told and
never dare try anything new.. new is wrong if someone else hasn't
proved.. who is someone else?

DAT CAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW. GIVING ADVICE SO THE UDDER DING DONGS GET
A CLOGGED HEAD

And neither do you.
Wasn't advice.. so maybe you should take it.. I wish you bad luck.

SURE DO EVERYTHING THAT WILL RAISE THE PRICES TO OTHERS. DATS YOUR
KIND

My kind.... is to exploit your kind.
Thats right... those that beleive what there told by manufacturers are
being exploited/used, make money through making people beleive they need
what you have to offer for sale. and thats what the printer companys are
trying to do, and those that beleive it, like yourself, are exactly what
they want, it has nothing to do with you 'needing' it.

But away from work, I don't.. simple?

OF COURSE NOT
Yet!!!

THATS WHY HE BOUGHT A CANON

Correct, canon are much better for refilling, the epson was CIS only for
the reliability I needed, and being 4 custom inks, the manufacturer went
out of business and I could not get hold of the same inks, so almost all
canons here now.

NOW HE IS GOING TO RUIN AN EXPENSIVE PRINTER

Hell yeh
Why not.. 1/3 the expense is the ink, so, using primary grade maths, 2
sets of refill ink and my printer has now been payed for..and cost me $0,
when compared to using 'reccomended' (yes, they say reccomended, not
needed) oem inks.
I have already gone beyond that.. so that printer now OWES ME MONEY!!!
and if it doesn't cough it up.. I WILL DESTROY it by SMASHING IT OVER
YOUR HEAD!
But, effecitvely, if I can exploit this printer to do more than it was
origionally intended for the customer to do, it will be quite happy
sitting there for ages to come.

BTW.. can I have your name/adress for the printer destruction, or you
just want to meet somewhere???



A question... What is your opinion on the 'chipping' of game consoles,
and the use of copied games (legal or not) in those 'chipped' consoles?

 

[cvt]

I've seen multiple reports on major differences for magenta and minor
differences otherwise.

You did a side-by-side-comparison and had no difference!?

I'm saying the difference was so small, it was negledgable.
This reported major magenta difference is definately not the case here.
I was comparing BCI-6 -> C3, and C3 -> CLI-8

Exact numbers as follows (RGB)
C3 182,23,45
CLI-8 186,28,44

Colours are gathered from ink placed between 2 glass slides (those they
use with microscopes), and an average colour of all that area covered
with ink.
For printout, I also seen no obvious difference.
So I will stand by statement, with my disclaimer, not all companys inks.
I can post the raw scans of each ink if you want to analyze it yourself.

So EXACTLY as I replied in another post..
They are not identical, but the difference is so small the use of
different paper makes for a more noticable difference, and a well within
calibration range.

Yes, as for BCI3 -> BCI-3e

I have never seen a BCI3, thats why I never commented on it.

Yes, showing that there actually is a color difference

Exactly, hence why I had the brackets.
The ink was compatible, even though improved, colours changed slightly,
and needed to be calibrated, something you can do yourself anyway.
Where colour is a concern the printers and programs defaults are NEVER
correct (if you ever use a 9950 its the most obvious, infact canon should
be ashamed), and always need tweaking, so I don't see how it hurts, once
you set your own paramters, as long as you don;t have to go thru the pain
again.
As long as the colour difference is within the adjustable parameters.

Do you disagree?
Thats my POV on the subject, If you have a different one, as long as its
not measekites, its worth hearing.
I rarely even wait for the ink to run out before fitting a CIS, its not
a concern to me, I calibrate for the inks I use, my Epson 9600 is the
only printer I run on OEM (because carts are a decent size and price
unlike these toys), and it was no different and needed callibrating.
just these carts are stopping me from converting my ip6600d meaning I can
only refill. Until I get careful with the scalpal and make my own CIS
carts out of OEM ones (I hate cis carts where the cart has ink in it, had
issues with them in the past) I have the perfect pain in the arse printer
to play around with.

 

[Martin Trautmann]

I'm saying the difference was so small, it was negledgable.
This reported major magenta difference is definately not the case here.
I was comparing BCI-6 -> C3, and C3 -> CLI-8

Exact numbers as follows (RGB)
C3 182,23,45
CLI-8 186,28,44

Colours are gathered from ink placed between 2 glass slides (those they
use with microscopes), and an average colour of all that area covered
with ink.

I'm sure that this may give some kind of information. However, I doubt
that this info can be translated easily to practical applications.

Yes, I'd like to see your comparison. I'll do it next week myself, when
I have access to both my own iP4000 and my father's iP4200. I'll print
the same image on the same paper. I'll scan it one week later (first,
since I have no other option, second since this will stabilize any color
shift immediately after printing). I'll scan the prints together.

This is similiar to your approach?

The ink was compatible, even though improved, colours changed slightly,
and needed to be calibrated, something you can do yourself anyway.

Not everyone - the typical calibration approach is rather expensive
hard- and software.

Thats my POV on the subject, If you have a different one, as long as its
not measekites, its worth hearing.

I don't know his point - he's killfiled and not worth for any comment.

I rarely even wait for the ink to run out before fitting a CIS, its not
a concern to me, I calibrate for the inks I use, my Epson 9600 is the
only printer I run on OEM (because carts are a decent size and price
unlike these toys), and it was no different and needed callibrating.

How do YOU calibrate?

- Martin

 

[Arthur Entlich]

There is a distinct difference between altering the ink used in an Epson
printer and any other thermal type of printer.

With the Epson, since the ink projection system is mechanical, as long
as the viscosity and particle sizes are small enough, the ink should
flow. Drying time is also an issue in terms of how it is absorbed by
the paper surface, and how likely the nozzles are to clog with the ink
on the head surface.

The Canon and other thermal have a number of extra issues to consider.
The solvent types and levels are critical since it literally heats the
ink to a boiling point to project the ink forward.

Any residue become quite critical since it is repeated over and over
again. Also, since the heads are more vulnerable due to the resistors
in them, they may be harmed by the abrasion of the pigment particles, or
damaged by the pH of the ink.

BTW< I am not suggesting it isn't worthwhile experimenting, but the
successes may be shorter lived than intended. I have no idea how Canon
is dealing with the pigment ink situation which there new pigment ink
printers, but it did take them some time to come out with them, making
me think there is a design change in the heads of those newer printers.

Art

 

[cvt]

I'm sure that this may give some kind of information. However, I doubt
that this info can be translated easily to practical applications.

Yes, I'd like to see your comparison. I'll do it next week myself,
when I have access to both my own iP4000 and my father's iP4200. I'll
print the same image on the same paper. I'll scan it one week later
(first, since I have no other option, second since this will stabilize
any color shift immediately after printing). I'll scan the prints
together.

This is similiar to your approach?

Identical to my initial approach, yes.
I will be interested to see what you get back.
I used my ip6600d and i9950 for the bci6/c3, i tested the aftermarket in
the ip6600d only.

Not everyone - the typical calibration approach is rather expensive
hard- and software.


I don't know his point - he's killfiled and not worth for any comment.

I was actually interested in what your opinion on the subject was.

How do YOU calibrate?

Not fair ..
This is gonna prove your point... anyway..

I use custom profiles, I use WiziWYG, Which is surprisingly well priced.
(free but needs special it8 target)

I do the printer profiles myself, Using a Epson 4990 scanner.. Which
isn't optimum, but I have a specific profile for every paper, ink,
printer I have and use now.
Not professional grade, but as close as offordably possible, any slight
errors can be picked out by eye and fixed anyway.

In the cases where those options are too dear, they probably don;t shoot
photos with a grey card, just pick the paper that haves the best colour,
or clicks buttons like vivid color, there obviously not too stressed
about it and the CMYK sliders in the canon drivers should be plenty
adequate.

BUT..... Before I started getting serious, I used the sliders in the
drivers religiously, there not that hard, few wasted pages, but I always
got it acceptable in the end. And I used that just fine for filling in
the descrepinsies in ink and paper, and used AutoIT (which is free) to
garentee my settings were fine for every print.

Eitherway, a Kodak IT8 is about AU$70, so I spose you'd be looking at $50
or so over there, and before I got software I got one of those anyway.
And the WiziWYG card is $89, IMO, that sounds fairly well priced for the
software, considering your looking at $25pp and up for someone else to
make a single profile for you.

Anyway.. Thats what you wanted me to say.. eh

 

[cvt]

There is a distinct difference between altering the ink used in an
Epson printer and any other thermal type of printer.

With the Epson, since the ink projection system is mechanical, as long
as the viscosity and particle sizes are small enough, the ink should
flow. Drying time is also an issue in terms of how it is absorbed by
the paper surface, and how likely the nozzles are to clog with the ink
on the head surface.

The Canon and other thermal have a number of extra issues to consider.
The solvent types and levels are critical since it literally heats the
ink to a boiling point to project the ink forward.

Any residue become quite critical since it is repeated over and over
again. Also, since the heads are more vulnerable due to the resistors
in them, they may be harmed by the abrasion of the pigment particles,
or damaged by the pH of the ink.

BTW< I am not suggesting it isn't worthwhile experimenting, but the
successes may be shorter lived than intended. I have no idea how
Canon is dealing with the pigment ink situation which there new
pigment ink printers, but it did take them some time to come out with
them, making me think there is a design change in the heads of those
newer printers.

Art

I realised this, ignoring the acidic levels, but the abrasion of the
pigment particles was something I am aware of.

Its more of a curiosity thing, I know they run (a fair few of the cheap
generic brand cartridges) use the dye ink in the pigment blacks for canon
printers, leaves me thinking the viscosity, turface tension, and pH must
all be similair, enough to be exchangable successively.

The printer is still going, by the end of the week it sould have done a
couple reams of paper (1000 pages) so if its still working then I'm not
sure if I'll be surprised or happy

I am expecting disaster, but if it doesn't happen.. well, thats all good
then?
It has taken canon some time to make a 'all' pigment ink printer, but the
pigment blacks have been available for some time, and quite reliable, so
they obviously had the method worked out.
I'll stand in teh same position, I have no idea what canon have/are doing
with the difference in the pigment/dye area.

Effectively the only difference I see going through the printer is that
its particles, and not dissolvable, and that if it did build up, it
wouldn't be as easy to clean, maybe the soak and reverse clean might work
(you know, cleaning fluid in tray, suck fluid thru head with syringe) to
unlodge them and get them back thru the filter..

I think the biggest issue with people doing this is not getting ALL of
the dye ink out of the cart before using the pigment ink.. that would
definatley cause a blockage..
Thats if the head can survive longenough to make it even worth
considering.

Eitherway, 3rd tankfull so far with nothing glitched yet.
at the end of this tank I have to make the decision of voiding the
warranty and continuing the experiment, or just putting dye thru it again
and playing it safe. eitherway, this tank is full atm, I'll try swapping
a chip from one of the colour carts when the time comes.. might work?

 

[Martin Trautmann]

I was actually interested in what your opinion on the subject was.

I got some monitor calibration once from a friend who verified Laptop, external
CRT, and some improvements on printer and scanner. It was a tool such as
GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display Mod.2 (almost 300 EUR) - I guess the
Colorvision Spyder 2.

But I'd like to learn more about other approaches, apart from manual try
and error.

Not fair .. This is gonna prove your point... anyway..

Nevertheless: Thanks :-D

I use custom profiles, I use WiziWYG, Which is surprisingly well
priced. (free but needs special it8 target)

Not my world, althugh I'll have to to the test prints from Win systems,
I'm afraid.

- Martin

 

[zakezuke]

Apart from being physically different between CLI-8 and BCI-6, AFAIK

Exactly what I meant. BTW: CLI-8 and BCI-6 look almost the same
(exception: obviously the chip). Howeber, Cartridges CLI-8 fit
physically into the BCI-6 slots, but not the other way round.
Is there a difference between BCI-3 and BCI-6?

According to the image specalist's site, magenta has a different part
number. However, according to printerfillingstation, they have a
different part number for cyan, magenta, and yellow. Whether
printerfillingstation is showing the most up to date data or what is
something I can't say, nor can I say i've done business with
printerfilling station.

But these are the part numbers for Image Specalists ink

http://image-specialists.com/newproducts.asp

PGI-5Bk = WJ1020 (Pigmented) Unchanged
Cli-8/bci-7/bci-7e
Cyan WJ2032 Magenta WJ6121 Yellow WJ797
Bci-6
Cyan WJ2032 Magenta WJ6053 Yellow WJ797


printerfillingstation.com
cli-8/bci-7 bci-6
P black WJ1110
Black WJ1109
Cyan WJ2121 WJ2032
Magenta WJ6121 WJ6035
Yellow WJ7121 WJ797