Zip Drive Delayed Write Failure - need help

L

LadyDungeness

I'm going to take the Zip 100 drive out of my desktop tower. I'll use
the bay for my new DVD writer. So I'm copying my Zip disks to the
hard drive first. I'm getting "Delayed Write Error" messages on some
of the files; after that, Windows XP Home SP2 doesn't recognize the
files on the zip disk.

Can this be fixed so I can transfer ALL the data?


Lady Dungeness
Crabby, but Great Legs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
F

frodo

I'm going to take the Zip 100 drive out of my desktop tower. I'll use
the bay for my new DVD writer. So I'm copying my Zip disks to the
hard drive first. I'm getting "Delayed Write Error" messages on some
of the files; after that, Windows XP Home SP2 doesn't recognize the
files on the zip disk.
Can this be fixed so I can transfer ALL the data?

it would appear that the drive is going bad, or the disk themselves are.
Try re-reading them if possible. otherwise you're SOL, sorry.

The ZIP 100 drive has a history of failing over time, typically because
the heads get dirty or just fail. Usually you'll notice it, the drive
will start to make "The Click Of Death" (google for it, it was big news a
few years ago). This is the head retracting and realigning; if it does it
just once that's not bad, but if it continually does the click then it's
dieing. the www.grc.com site has a tool you can use to see if your drive
is failing [note you may need to put a COPY of wnaspi32.dll into the same
folder as the .exe you download; copy it from your \windows\system32].

I had this happen just last month, a 10 year old drive went kaplooie. It
complained about every disk it was fed, and clicked endlessly. I replaced
the drive w/ a backup I had lying around (lucky me), and it worked fine -
the disks that had been declared bad were just fine.

These drives can't be found anymore, except from people like me that keep
old junk around for years and years. And no, I don't have any more.
Like you I intend to migrate away from ZIP very soon, even tho I've got 50
or more disks lying around. It was a great technology when it was
young... It will pain me to toss them, as it pained my to toss away
Bernouli disks I had used many years ago.

re: trying to clean the heads, I didn't see where that was very easy. you
can open the drive up, but the heads retract into a holder of sorts, and I
couldn't get them to extend manually. I intended to use a alcohol soaked
piece of clean white paper to try cleaning the heads (old standby). They
are very delicate, but since they were already NG I figured I'd try. But
couldn't get at 'em.

Good Luck getting your data off 'em...
 
L

LadyDungeness

I think you've diagnosed it perfectly. I had never heard of the
"click of death" -- but I recognize it! It's click, click, clicking
of death away in there. Never did use it much -- I just want to get
the date off my 6-7 disks. Four hours into it -- two disks as done as
possible.

I have to keep ejecting and reinserting the zip disk. Arrrrrgh!

Thanks for the diagnosis -- I'll quit worrying about other potential
causes and presume that the rest of my hardware is okay.


Lady Dungeness
Crabby, but Great Legs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:44:59 -0000, (e-mail address removed) wrote:

|[email protected] wrote:
|> I'm going to take the Zip 100 drive out of my desktop tower. I'll use
|> the bay for my new DVD writer. So I'm copying my Zip disks to the
|> hard drive first. I'm getting "Delayed Write Error" messages on some
|> of the files; after that, Windows XP Home SP2 doesn't recognize the
|> files on the zip disk.
|
|> Can this be fixed so I can transfer ALL the data?
|
|it would appear that the drive is going bad, or the disk themselves are.
|Try re-reading them if possible. otherwise you're SOL, sorry.
|
|The ZIP 100 drive has a history of failing over time, typically because
|the heads get dirty or just fail. Usually you'll notice it, the drive
|will start to make "The Click Of Death" (google for it, it was big news a
|few years ago). This is the head retracting and realigning; if it does it
|just once that's not bad, but if it continually does the click then it's
|dieing. the www.grc.com site has a tool you can use to see if your drive
|is failing [note you may need to put a COPY of wnaspi32.dll into the same
|folder as the .exe you download; copy it from your \windows\system32].
|
|I had this happen just last month, a 10 year old drive went kaplooie. It
|complained about every disk it was fed, and clicked endlessly. I replaced
|the drive w/ a backup I had lying around (lucky me), and it worked fine -
|the disks that had been declared bad were just fine.
|
|These drives can't be found anymore, except from people like me that keep
|old junk around for years and years. And no, I don't have any more.
|Like you I intend to migrate away from ZIP very soon, even tho I've got 50
|or more disks lying around. It was a great technology when it was
|young... It will pain me to toss them, as it pained my to toss away
|Bernouli disks I had used many years ago.
|
|re: trying to clean the heads, I didn't see where that was very easy. you
|can open the drive up, but the heads retract into a holder of sorts, and I
|couldn't get them to extend manually. I intended to use a alcohol soaked
|piece of clean white paper to try cleaning the heads (old standby). They
|are very delicate, but since they were already NG I figured I'd try. But
|couldn't get at 'em.
|
|Good Luck getting your data off 'em...
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

Sounds like the drive and/or disks are bad.

If all disks are bad, then drive may be destructively bad; stop
testing, try the UNtested disks in another good Zip drive, if you can
find one and the owner will let you use it.
it would appear that the drive is going bad, or the disk themselves are.
Try re-reading them if possible. otherwise you're SOL, sorry.

What ha said ;-)
The ZIP 100 drive has a history of failing over time, typically because
the heads get dirty or just fail. Usually you'll notice it, the drive
will start to make "The Click Of Death" (google for it, it was big news a
few years ago). This is the head retracting and realigning; if it does it
just once that's not bad, but if it continually does the click then it's
dieing. the www.grc.com site has a tool you can use to see if your drive
is failing [note you may need to put a COPY of wnaspi32.dll into the same
folder as the .exe you download; copy it from your \windows\system32].

IOmega and the LS-120 folks were happy to avoid a new post-1.44M
standard in the interests of propietary lock-in and markup, and played
that game until falling CDR prices swept them into the dustbin of
history. IOmega are now iPodding along, i.e. putting cheap small HDs
in expensively-branded retail-friendly external housings.

I think I joined the dots on "click of death".

Unlike PC 1.44M (and like Mac 1.44M), there is no physical disk eject
on an IOmega Zip drive. Instead, there's an electric switch that
"asks" the drive to eject the disk, much as a modern PC's ATX "power
off" switch "asks" the PC to shut down.

"Open the pd bad doors, HAL..."

When a Zip drive can't read a disk, it goes into a retry loop, during
which it ignores all external events, including your repeated pressing
of the eject button. This is generic disk-handling procedure; the
low-level code that actually reads the disk needs to be fast and
atomic (i.e. not interrupted) so generally runs with interrupts
disabled, and that means it will "lock up the system" when it gets
bogged down in a retry loop.

External Zip drives (the most common type) have a hole at the back
through which one can insert a straightened paper clip, to force an
eject. This is similar to the hole in the front of CD/DVD drives.

Most users (myself included) didn't know about that hole, so when they
were desperate to eject the disk, they generally did so by thumping
the drive on the table, hoping the momentum of the disk would "spit it
out". And indeed; it generally did.

The trouble is, that could rip the heads on the edge of the disk,
leaving the edge of the disk torn and damaged, and not doing the heads
much good either; they could be twisted to scrape every new disk they
see. The disk's torn edge could snag and twist the heads of a "good"
drive too... so you have the hardware "click of death" virus.

As I recall, IOmega had their ass sued off on that one.
These drives can't be found anymore, except from people like me that keep
old junk around for years and years. And no, I don't have any more.
Like you I intend to migrate away from ZIP very soon, even tho I've got 50
or more disks lying around.

It's the cost of the disks (both inherent, and as puffed up by
lock-in) that killed these devices. A small pile of 100M Zip disks
would prolly cost more than a new 4.5G DVD writer.
re: trying to clean the heads, I didn't see where that was very easy. you
can open the drive up, but the heads retract into a holder of sorts, and I
couldn't get them to extend manually. I intended to use a alcohol soaked
piece of clean white paper to try cleaning the heads (old standby). They
are very delicate, but since they were already NG I figured I'd try. But
couldn't get at 'em.

Yup. These drives exist somewhere between the crude robustness of
diskettes and the rarefied clean-room interiors of hard drives, with
high speeds and small sizes to match. I don't think I'd trust myself
to manually clean the heads, unless I had an approved cleaning disk
(if there was such a thing).

I opened up a dead external drive and was appalled by the structural
quality - very plasticky and crude, looking more like a McDonald's
give-away toy than something that cost three times as much as today's
DVD writers. I thought the class-action law suit may have been a bit
opportunistic (disks fail, shrug) until I saw the drive's insides.


--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Tech Support: The guys who follow the
'Parade of New Products' with a shovel.
 
L

LadyDungeness

Hi CQuirke -- I always enjoy your posts; entertaining, informative,
and written so I can (usually) understand the techie stuff. I got
that Zip drive when they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It served its purpose, I guess.

Interesting about the suit against Iomega. There's a bazillion class
actions suits around, and a lot of them are opportunistic. But from
what you say, the company was playing the opportunistic game as well.
Play with fire ...

CQuirke -- I replaced the Zip drive with a new DVD-RW, with the help
of posters on this forum. I'm really happy that the install was
successful, and am amazed at what a difference a 52x is from my old
4x. Don't knock the 4x though -- it's still working, too, and never
once failed me.


Lady Dungeness
Crabby, but Great Legs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

Hi CQuirke -- I always enjoy your posts; entertaining, informative,
and written so I can (usually) understand the techie stuff. I got
that Zip drive when they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It served its purpose, I guess.

Thanks! Yes, IKWYM about the day of Zip drives; I too had an IOmega
external, and sold a couple before switching to cheaper, faster and
more reliable generic-brand internal Zip drives for clients who needed
backups that were too big for diskettes, while CDRs were still costly.
Interesting about the suit against Iomega. There's a bazillion class
actions suits around, and a lot of them are opportunistic. But from
what you say, the company was playing the opportunistic game as well.
Play with fire ...

Yep. It's the old "branding over content" game, and they're still
playing it to date. I don't think there's anything unique they do
anymore; all I see generally are small HDs in costly boxes.
CQuirke -- I replaced the Zip drive with a new DVD-RW, with the help
of posters on this forum. I'm really happy that the install was
successful, and am amazed at what a difference a 52x is from my old
4x. Don't knock the 4x though -- it's still working, too, and never
once failed me.

DVD drives rock, it must be said. It can be a bit confusing figuring
out R vs. RW and formal authoring vs. packet writing, but I'll try.

Here's the executive summary:

R RW

Authored Fine Fine
Packet-written Can't Sucks


Now for the background details...


R(ecordable) disks are like writing in ink - once you've written, you
cannot erase, edit or overwrite.

R(e)W(ritable) disks are like writing in pencil - you can rub out what
you want to change, but what you write in there, has to fit between
whatever else you have not rubbed out.


The "authoring" process is like setting up a printing press; you first
lay out the CD or DVD exactly as you want it, then you splat that onto
the disk. You can fill the whole disk at once, like printing a book
(single session), or you can fill the first part and leave the rest
blank to add more stuff later, like a printed book that has blank
pages where new stuff can be added (start a multisession).

The "packet writing" process is what lets you pretend an RW disk is
like a "big diskette". Material is written to disk in packets, and
individual packets can be rubbed out and replaced with new packets,
which pretty much mirrors the way magnetic disks are used. This
method is obviously not applicable to R disks.

RW disks can also be authored, but the rules stay the same; you either
add extra sessions to a multi-session disk, or you erase the whole
disk and author it all over again.


When you overwrite a file in a packet-writing system, you do so by
freeing up the packets containing the old file and write the new file
into the same and/or other packets. The free space left over is
increased by the size of the old file and reduced by the size of the
new, rounded up to a whole number of packets.

When you "overwrite" a file in a multisession (authored) disk, it is
like crossing out the old material and writing new material
underneath, as one is obliged to do when writing in ink. The free
space drops faster, because the space of the old file cannot be
reclaimed and re-used, and because each session has some file system
overhead, no matter how small the content.


There are a number of different standard disk formats, all of which
must be formally authored; audio CDs, movie DVDs, CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs
of various flavors. In contrast, packet-written disk formats may be
proprietary, and supported only by the software that created them.

Nero and Easy CD Creator are examples of formal authoring tools, and
several media players can also author various media and data formats.

InCD and DirectCD are examples of packet-writing tools, which
generally maintain a low profile in the SysTray, popping up only to
format newly-discovered blank RW disks. The rest of the time, they
work thier magic behind the scenes, so that Windows Explorer can
appear to be able to use RW disks as "big diskettes".

Windows has built-in writer support, but the way it works can embody
the worst of both authoring and packet-writing models. I generally
disable this support and use Nero instead.


RW disks and flash drives share a bad characteristic; limited write
life. In order to reduce write traffic to RW disks, packet writing
software will hold back and accumulate writes, so these can be written
back in one go just before the disk is ejected.

What this means is that packet written disks often get barfed by bad
exits, lockups, crashes, and forced disk ejects. Typically the disk
will have no files on it, and no free space. When this happens, you
can either erase the disk and author it, or format the disk for
another go at packet writing. Erasing is faster, while formatting
applies only to packet writing (it defines the packets).

I have found that packet writing software has been a common cause of
system instability (that often ironically corrupts packet-written
disks). The unreliability, slow formatting, and poor portability
across arbitrary systems have all led me to abandon packet writing in
favor of formally authoring RW disks.


--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
"We have captured lightning and used
it to teach sand how to think."
 
L

LadyDungeness

Thanks for the info. CDR's are cheap; I think I'll avoid RW's. You've
got a colorful and fun way of explaining things -- have you thought
about writing and selling some techie guides for the novice computer
tweaker?


Lady Dungeness
Crabby, but Great Legs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:49:02 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)"

|On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:19:54 -0700, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
|
|>Hi CQuirke -- I always enjoy your posts; entertaining, informative,
|>and written so I can (usually) understand the techie stuff. I got
|>that Zip drive when they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
|>It served its purpose, I guess.
|
|Thanks! Yes, IKWYM about the day of Zip drives; I too had an IOmega
|external, and sold a couple before switching to cheaper, faster and
|more reliable generic-brand internal Zip drives for clients who needed
|backups that were too big for diskettes, while CDRs were still costly.
|
|>Interesting about the suit against Iomega. There's a bazillion class
|>actions suits around, and a lot of them are opportunistic. But from
|>what you say, the company was playing the opportunistic game as well.
|>Play with fire ...
|
|Yep. It's the old "branding over content" game, and they're still
|playing it to date. I don't think there's anything unique they do
|anymore; all I see generally are small HDs in costly boxes.
|
|>CQuirke -- I replaced the Zip drive with a new DVD-RW, with the help
|>of posters on this forum. I'm really happy that the install was
|>successful, and am amazed at what a difference a 52x is from my old
|>4x. Don't knock the 4x though -- it's still working, too, and never
|>once failed me.
|
|DVD drives rock, it must be said. It can be a bit confusing figuring
|out R vs. RW and formal authoring vs. packet writing, but I'll try.
|
|Here's the executive summary:
|
| R RW
|
|Authored Fine Fine
|Packet-written Can't Sucks
|
|
|Now for the background details...
|
|
|R(ecordable) disks are like writing in ink - once you've written, you
|cannot erase, edit or overwrite.
|
|R(e)W(ritable) disks are like writing in pencil - you can rub out what
|you want to change, but what you write in there, has to fit between
|whatever else you have not rubbed out.
|
|
|The "authoring" process is like setting up a printing press; you first
|lay out the CD or DVD exactly as you want it, then you splat that onto
|the disk. You can fill the whole disk at once, like printing a book
|(single session), or you can fill the first part and leave the rest
|blank to add more stuff later, like a printed book that has blank
|pages where new stuff can be added (start a multisession).
|
|The "packet writing" process is what lets you pretend an RW disk is
|like a "big diskette". Material is written to disk in packets, and
|individual packets can be rubbed out and replaced with new packets,
|which pretty much mirrors the way magnetic disks are used. This
|method is obviously not applicable to R disks.
|
|RW disks can also be authored, but the rules stay the same; you either
|add extra sessions to a multi-session disk, or you erase the whole
|disk and author it all over again.
|
|
|When you overwrite a file in a packet-writing system, you do so by
|freeing up the packets containing the old file and write the new file
|into the same and/or other packets. The free space left over is
|increased by the size of the old file and reduced by the size of the
|new, rounded up to a whole number of packets.
|
|When you "overwrite" a file in a multisession (authored) disk, it is
|like crossing out the old material and writing new material
|underneath, as one is obliged to do when writing in ink. The free
|space drops faster, because the space of the old file cannot be
|reclaimed and re-used, and because each session has some file system
|overhead, no matter how small the content.
|
|
|There are a number of different standard disk formats, all of which
|must be formally authored; audio CDs, movie DVDs, CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs
|of various flavors. In contrast, packet-written disk formats may be
|proprietary, and supported only by the software that created them.
|
|Nero and Easy CD Creator are examples of formal authoring tools, and
|several media players can also author various media and data formats.
|
|InCD and DirectCD are examples of packet-writing tools, which
|generally maintain a low profile in the SysTray, popping up only to
|format newly-discovered blank RW disks. The rest of the time, they
|work thier magic behind the scenes, so that Windows Explorer can
|appear to be able to use RW disks as "big diskettes".
|
|Windows has built-in writer support, but the way it works can embody
|the worst of both authoring and packet-writing models. I generally
|disable this support and use Nero instead.
|
|
|RW disks and flash drives share a bad characteristic; limited write
|life. In order to reduce write traffic to RW disks, packet writing
|software will hold back and accumulate writes, so these can be written
|back in one go just before the disk is ejected.
|
|What this means is that packet written disks often get barfed by bad
|exits, lockups, crashes, and forced disk ejects. Typically the disk
|will have no files on it, and no free space. When this happens, you
|can either erase the disk and author it, or format the disk for
|another go at packet writing. Erasing is faster, while formatting
|applies only to packet writing (it defines the packets).
|
|I have found that packet writing software has been a common cause of
|system instability (that often ironically corrupts packet-written
|disks). The unreliability, slow formatting, and poor portability
|across arbitrary systems have all led me to abandon packet writing in
|favor of formally authoring RW disks.
|
|
|
|>--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
| "We have captured lightning and used
| it to teach sand how to think."
|>--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

Thanks for the info. CDR's are cheap; I think I'll avoid RW's. You've
got a colorful and fun way of explaining things -- have you thought
about writing and selling some techie guides for the novice computer
tweaker?

No, but I did re-use this post as a blog page:

http://cquirke.blogspot.com/2007/08/cdrwdvdrw-primer.html

:)

I must say, I'm happy with CDRWs when used via formal authoring (in
fact, I no longer install InCD on the PCs I build) unless I know I
want a permanent copy of the material.

For backups, I'd prolly do something like this...
- 3 x CDRWs, spindle of CDRs
- CDRW A used for data backups on Mondays and Wednesdays
- CDRW B used for data backups on Tuesdays and Thursdays
- CDRW C used for data backups on Fridays
- CDRW C taken off site, broght back next week
- month-end backups on CDRs, retained permanently

With a CDR-only strategy, there's a temptation to do backups less
often, whereas you'd not mind re-using the same CDRWs daily.


------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Our senses are our UI to reality
 
L

LadyDungeness

Thanks for the plan. Last night as I was falling asleep, I though to
myself, "Self -- I need a backup _plan_." Had nightmares all night.

I like you.


Lady Dungeness
Crabby, but Great Legs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:30:35 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)"

|On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:03:53 -0700, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
|
|>Thanks for the info. CDR's are cheap; I think I'll avoid RW's. You've
|>got a colorful and fun way of explaining things -- have you thought
|>about writing and selling some techie guides for the novice computer
|>tweaker?
|
|No, but I did re-use this post as a blog page:
|
|http://cquirke.blogspot.com/2007/08/cdrwdvdrw-primer.html
|
|:)
|
|I must say, I'm happy with CDRWs when used via formal authoring (in
|fact, I no longer install InCD on the PCs I build) unless I know I
|want a permanent copy of the material.
|
|For backups, I'd prolly do something like this...
| - 3 x CDRWs, spindle of CDRs
| - CDRW A used for data backups on Mondays and Wednesdays
| - CDRW B used for data backups on Tuesdays and Thursdays
| - CDRW C used for data backups on Fridays
| - CDRW C taken off site, broght back next week
| - month-end backups on CDRs, retained permanently
|
|With a CDR-only strategy, there's a temptation to do backups less
|often, whereas you'd not mind re-using the same CDRWs daily.
|
|
|
|>------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
| Our senses are our UI to reality
|>------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top