XP versus 98SE and games

P

pjp

Just finished couple of weeks of dual-boot system with 98SE and XP pro.

Started with clean install of 98SE and got system up to speed with Cat 4.3
and latest Logitech drivers for rumblepads and wheels.

Then did the same with XP, setting it up as a dual-boot system with XP on
separate hard disk as I have two WD Caviar's in system. Used Cat 4.3 and
same logitech drivers.

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at least one
notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy also to achieve
same sense of performance (smoothness of display and preciseness of using
controllers) in game.

This expected?
 
S

STE

pjp said:
Just finished couple of weeks of dual-boot system with 98SE and XP
pro.

Started with clean install of 98SE and got system up to speed with
Cat 4.3 and latest Logitech drivers for rumblepads and wheels.

Then did the same with XP, setting it up as a dual-boot system with
XP on separate hard disk as I have two WD Caviar's in system. Used
Cat 4.3 and same logitech drivers.

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at
least one notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy
also to achieve same sense of performance (smoothness of display and
preciseness of using controllers) in game.

This expected?
XP is bound to be running shit loads of crap in the background.
Do some googling and find out what you can get rid of, they should be
the same after that.
Good isn't it, having to fix an OS after you install it? >-/

Oh, and make sure you have enough RAM, XP has a much bigger footprint,
so there is less for your games.

I'm sure Toms Hardware (or some such site) once did a feature to test
the difference in OSs and they were within 1% of each other.
 
S

Skid

pjp said:
Just finished couple of weeks of dual-boot system with 98SE and XP pro.

Started with clean install of 98SE and got system up to speed with Cat 4.3
and latest Logitech drivers for rumblepads and wheels.

Then did the same with XP, setting it up as a dual-boot system with XP on
separate hard disk as I have two WD Caviar's in system. Used Cat 4.3 and
same logitech drivers.

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at least one
notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy also to achieve
same sense of performance (smoothness of display and preciseness of using
controllers) in game.

This expected?

Not totally unexpected. But you can do a lot to reduce the overhead of XP by
eliminating unneeded services and making simple tweaks. www.xptweak.com is a
good place to start.
 
A

Augustus

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at least
one
notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy also to achieve
same sense of performance (smoothness of display and preciseness of using
controllers) in game.

How marginal a system are you running? XP requires much higher hardware
resources. 98SE on a PIII 733 with 128Meg is super fast. Load XP on the
same box, and it's still usable, but sluggish and extremely tight for memory
and resources. Bump the memory up to 512 and XP will speed up considerably.
All things being equal, most 3D apps run faster under XP than with 98 so
long as your CPU/memory is adequate. I consider 256Meg for XP to be adequate
for productivity apps, browsing, etc, but not for gaming. 512Mb should be
your minimum for gaming. At 512Mb XP has about as much headroom as 98SE does
with 128Mb.
 
D

Dave

Augustus said:
How marginal a system are you running? XP requires much higher hardware
resources. 98SE on a PIII 733 with 128Meg is super fast.

You should see it with an Athlon 64 and a gig! W00t! lol! We' re talking
window maximizing approaching relativistic intervals here ;-) (yeah, I know,
menu show delay, no animation, I had to spoil the joke.) Surfs the internet
faster, too! No, really! With IE, anyhoo...

Load XP on the
same box, and it's still usable, but sluggish and extremely tight for memory
and resources. Bump the memory up to 512 and XP will speed up
considerably.

"512K should be enough for everybody"---Bill Gates.

All things being equal, most 3D apps run faster under XP than with 98 so
long as your CPU/memory is adequate.

I dunno about that, unless hyperthreading or real MP is factored into the
picture...I think it would be fair to say that this is the case for a
basically OOTB setup, but with we advanced users, this is hardly the case.
Food for idle thoughts, I s'pose. Either environment is highly tweakable. XP
more so, simply because you HAVE to: there's five more pounds of $#!+
stuffed into the ten pounds already stuffed into a five-pound paper bag. Far
too many unnecessary services and datamining BS running OOTB with XP. (One
wonders where the memory is going, no? Of course XP manages memory a little
more effectively...it HAS to with all that load of bollocks going on in the
background!). But with single and non-hyperthreading CPUs, it seems the
playing field is fairly level, as it were.

I consider 256Meg for XP to be adequate
for productivity apps, browsing, etc, but not for gaming.

Yeah, mostly single-use stuff, not multiple app windows open, heavy task
switching, etc. With XP, a gig is a wonderful security blanket...

512Mb should be
your minimum for gaming. At 512Mb XP has about as much headroom as 98SE does
with 128Mb.

Disable lots of startups, whatever service you can get away with. Especially
lock down that "phone home to Big Brother and broadcast my unsecured IP addy
ALL OVER the network, hi, I'm here, fill me with your automated active
scriptie!" f$cktard's idea of TCP services which makes the script kiddies
luv yer XP boxen so much. (M$ touts increased $ecurity with XP then leaves
the average home user WFO to serious buggery in an even more blatant fashion
than before=DOUBLESPEAK) Then the memory footprint of the OS runs ok within
256 megs with most games except for games like Painkiller which chugs a bit
without at least a svelte, tuned 384 (512 minimum recommendation is no lie).
Realistically, (I know what you're getting at, and I agree completely, but
still...), 98SE would be hitting the swap file with 128 megs quite a bit
with current games, and with 512 megs, she don' got to! Still, no denying
after all these years that 98SE is

just as stable
easier to administer
FAR more streamlined
Just as secure if not MORE SO for the single-user environment (i.e. home
computer, not work or public terminal)
Still better for gaming, especially with older boxen

Plus: 'Sploits are targetted more towards XP boxen, because they're what's
for lunch. And we all know what growing boys need besides a knock on the
door from some men in blue suits now and then. Rest assured, with new
security features built in to next generations of hardware and software,
that served process will be more easily facilitated. But for now, there is
little to no security and backdoors are being uncovered in M$'s Holy
Cheeseblock practically weekly.

Big plus: Files M$ wants to hide from you are more easily accessible (can
you say "Dosshell"?), unless you install XP to a FAT32 partition.

98SE/ME is far from dead. There's a whole previous generation of user base
still pluggin' away on it.

Feel free to disagree, not like anyone needs any encouragement ;-); however,
this is not flamebait, but observations based upon years of practical
experience.
Standard disclaimer: I use and love to hate all current M$ OSes
indiscriminately and absolutely, and I'm learning to love to hate Linux and
OS-X more and more as time goes by in order to resolve issues of love/hate
dependencies with Microsoft.
 
D

DaveW

You made NO mention of what hardware you were using. With XP it makes a
difference if you don't have an adequate CPU, RAM, video card, etc.
 
P

pjp

512 megs ram, should be enough :) As basically itt wasn't much more than OS
each on separate WD Caviar 40 gig 7200 rpm hd's, that shouldn't be an issue
either. Perhaps there is a way to get XP working as good as 98SE for games
but if so I'm willing to bet you'll be turning off so many services etc.
that it'll break just about every other damn thing one might want to do. In
my case, there's an in-house ethernet sharing printers, hard disks and a
proxy server involved so I can't be indiscriminate.
 
P

pjp

Been there, did try to follow that but there are other issues involved
regarding pc sits on a network, shares printers etc.

After two weeks I just plain gave up as I became convinced it couldn't do it
and keep my normal working functionality.
 
P

pjp

512 here under both OS's. 20 years pc programming experience. I do know what
to actually expect from the hardware and "usually" can get some type of
optimal configuration on almost any system. That's why I'm so dissappointed
with XP as I'm not prepared to take that much of a hit on performance when
all I could actually do that was "new" .was use my Radeon to feed MSN
Messenger 6.1, not exactly an OS feature :)

Geez, even using a batch file and the "start /high" trick wasn't cutting
it!!!
 
M

Minotaur

pjp said:
Just finished couple of weeks of dual-boot system with 98SE and XP pro.

Started with clean install of 98SE and got system up to speed with Cat 4.3
and latest Logitech drivers for rumblepads and wheels.

Then did the same with XP, setting it up as a dual-boot system with XP on
separate hard disk as I have two WD Caviar's in system. Used Cat 4.3 and
same logitech drivers.

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at least one
notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy also to achieve
same sense of performance (smoothness of display and preciseness of using
controllers) in game.

This expected?

Well considering there shall be no more Updates or future versions of
DirectX for Win9X, NT (XP) wins hands down. However if your talking
about old DOS games, thats another story..

You shall need 512M of RAM, thats where you hit the sweet spot with XP.
But then even 1Gig can make loading maps in 1942 etc, a fair bit faster
(just when you thought 512M was enough).

I definantly remember Half Life being faster under Win 2000 than Win9X,
when that was released here. So I guess it depends really on your
hardware, why I can't stress enough about having as much RAM as possible
under NT (XP).

Minotaur
 
D

Dr. J

This is a great topic. Yes this is to be expected. If you are forced
to use an older system and gaming is your main concern, go 98SE. That
is what I use. Even if the benchmarks do not show it, the fact is
98SE is THE premeir gaming system. It is too bad MSI, my second
computer motherboards's manufacturer, does not support 98 or I would
use it there too. It is just not very stable. If your system is fast
enough, there will not be enough of a difference to notice.


What video card are you useing?
 
S

spent

Minotaur said:
Well considering there shall be no more Updates or future versions of
DirectX for Win9X, NT (XP) wins hands down. However if your talking
about old DOS games, thats another story..

You shall need 512M of RAM, thats where you hit the sweet spot with XP.
But then even 1Gig can make loading maps in 1942 etc, a fair bit faster
(just when you thought 512M was enough).

I definantly remember Half Life being faster under Win 2000 than Win9X,
when that was released here. So I guess it depends really on your
hardware, why I can't stress enough about having as much RAM as possible
under NT (XP).

Minotaur



Now that you've mentioned it how does Win 2000 stack up for gaming against
98SE & XP?
I'm currently using 98SE with 512Mb and a 9800 pro.
I have another 512 stick I'm itching to use but can't under 98SE.
I have the possibility of changing to 2000 though.

Cheers

Steve.
 
D

Darthy

Just finished couple of weeks of dual-boot system with 98SE and XP pro.

Started with clean install of 98SE and got system up to speed with Cat 4.3
and latest Logitech drivers for rumblepads and wheels.

Then did the same with XP, setting it up as a dual-boot system with XP on
separate hard disk as I have two WD Caviar's in system. Used Cat 4.3 and
same logitech drivers.

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at least one
notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy also to achieve
same sense of performance (smoothness of display and preciseness of using
controllers) in game.

This is a bit mixed...

first, we don't know your hardware stats. A Celeron 2Ghz? you didn't
say - we all know you said 512mb - But I've been using 512mb for over
3 years - so that means nothing.

On a slower computer, WinXP is a system hog - period. It does need at
least 512mb to run GOOD. 256 is fine for basic users still.

But when we're talking AMD XP or AMD64bit CPUs and current P4 chips,
Windows98 doesn't know what to do with these modern chips.

I did a benchmark of my old Win98 system with an AMD2500 and OC to AMD
3000 speeds. It was slower than an HP 2200 in XP... way slower.

I benchedmarked on a test system and mine own in a BEFORE AFTER and
notice that WinXP runs the AMD CPU a lot better than Win98.

Currently, Microsoft is totally SCREWING AMD in the ass. AMD is
selling 64bit CPUs left and right... and on M$ "windows 64" website -
they are saying NOTHING about AMD... only Intel's Xeon64 (new) and the
loser itanium whatever chip. AMD worked with M$ to make WIndows64
bit able...

We can see just HOW crappy M$ talent is... here. Linux was 64bit
ready when AMD was shipping 12 months ago!

hmmmmmm

DEATH TO MICROSOFT
 
N

NightSky 421

Under XP, every game I tried I have to lower the resolution by at least one
notch, most games also requiring some drop in the eye candy also to achieve
same sense of performance (smoothness of display and preciseness of using
controllers) in game.

This expected?


It's believeable. I remember when I first ran Windows XP, I had a
Celeron 800 with 512MB PC-133 RAM and a 32MB GeForce2 MX. I had a dual
boot set up between Windows ME and XP Pro at that point in time. Even
though I had the equivalent driver sets for my hardware for both
operating systems, Windows ME noticeably ran my games faster. However,
I started getting into high-end gear afterwards and couldn't tell the
difference after doing some big upgrades to my computer.

It's also worth noting that I installed Windows XP on a Celeron 433 with
256MB RAM and an ATI Xpert 2000 AGP 32MB video and tried running Red
Alert 2 on it. The game was almost like a slideshow under Windows XP
with that system even though the system was definitely well above the
minimum requirements for the game.

It's fair to say that Windows XP has since undergone a service pack and
a lot of other updates since I tried it on those two systems, and that
drivers in general are no doubt more mature. Still, I shouldn't be
surprised if Windows 9x provides better gaming performance, particularly
if you computer is getting close to the minimum requirements for a given
game.
 
N

NightSky 421

Darthy said:
Currently, Microsoft is totally SCREWING AMD in the ass. AMD is
selling 64bit CPUs left and right... and on M$ "windows 64" website -
they are saying NOTHING about AMD... only Intel's Xeon64 (new) and the
loser itanium whatever chip. AMD worked with M$ to make WIndows64
bit able...


Both of my computers are based on Intel processors and I haven't
personally owned an AMD processor of any sort since 1999, but I have to
agree that AMD seems to be getting the short end of the stick with
regards to getting a 64-bit version of Windows XP on the store shelves.
I also have a feeling that if Intel would have come out with an x86
compatible processor before AMD that Microsoft would have been much
quicker and hard-working about getting the 64-bit version of Windows XP
fully finished and out in stores.

AMD has come up with a solid 64-bit offering and I shouldn't be
surprised if Microsoft is stalling for the benefit of Intel. They don't
call 'em Wintel for nothin'. :) But at least Athlon 64 users can take
solace in the fact their their processors are really fast in the current
32-bit version of Windows.
 
N

NightSky 421

NightSky 421 said:
I also have a feeling that if Intel would have come out with an x86
compatible processor before AMD...


An x86 compatible 64-bit processor, I meant.
 
M

Mart

Now that you've mentioned it how does Win 2000 stack up for gaming against
98SE & XP?
I'm currently using 98SE with 512Mb and a 9800 pro.
I have another 512 stick I'm itching to use but can't under 98SE.
I have the possibility of changing to 2000 though.

Add the following line to SYSTEM.INI under the [VCache] section:

MaxFileCache=524288

and that second 512mb stick will be fine in Win98SE

Mart
-----
 
D

Dr. J

Ok, that is the most awesome Windows98 tip I have heard in years.
This will work for everything? No problem with games? DOS perhaps.

Thanxs for the tip!!!

jacobdrj

Mart said:
Now that you've mentioned it how does Win 2000 stack up for gaming against
98SE & XP?
I'm currently using 98SE with 512Mb and a 9800 pro.
I have another 512 stick I'm itching to use but can't under 98SE.
I have the possibility of changing to 2000 though.

Add the following line to SYSTEM.INI under the [VCache] section:

MaxFileCache=524288

and that second 512mb stick will be fine in Win98SE

Mart
-----
 
M

Mart

Yeah it'll work for everything, just install it and
forget the problem was even there.

Dr. J said:
Ok, that is the most awesome Windows98 tip I have heard in years.
This will work for everything? No problem with games? DOS perhaps.

Thanxs for the tip!!!

jacobdrj

Now that you've mentioned it how does Win 2000 stack up for gaming against
98SE & XP?
I'm currently using 98SE with 512Mb and a 9800 pro.
I have another 512 stick I'm itching to use but can't under 98SE.
I have the possibility of changing to 2000 though.

Add the following line to SYSTEM.INI under the [VCache] section:

MaxFileCache=524288

and that second 512mb stick will be fine in Win98SE

Mart
-----
[/QUOTE]
 
S

spent

Mart

Does this really allow the machine to use the full 1Gb, or does it just fool
it by telling it only to cache the first 512Mb ?

Mind you, I'm not sure I care - made the change and my virus scanner still
loads on boot up.
Hey, I can open a DOS prompt without being told that "There is not enough
memory available to run this program." in my 1Gb RAM machine.

I'd been through the MS knowledgebase before and found this
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;253912
and tried to fix it using msconfig but it didn't seem to help.

At least the extra stick is gathering dust in the box now instead of on the
shelf.

Cheers Mart!

Steve
= = = = =

Mart said:
Yeah it'll work for everything, just install it and
forget the problem was even there.

Dr. J said:
Ok, that is the most awesome Windows98 tip I have heard in years.
This will work for everything? No problem with games? DOS perhaps.

Thanxs for the tip!!!

jacobdrj

"Mart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
Now that you've mentioned it how does Win 2000 stack up for gaming against
98SE & XP?
I'm currently using 98SE with 512Mb and a 9800 pro.
I have another 512 stick I'm itching to use but can't under 98SE.
I have the possibility of changing to 2000 though.

Add the following line to SYSTEM.INI under the [VCache] section:

MaxFileCache=524288

and that second 512mb stick will be fine in Win98SE

Mart
-----
 

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