S
sandy58
Hey, I like it!! I have a huge grin plastered across my "boat". Just
look out for termites etc. Nice one.
Hey, I like it!! I have a huge grin plastered across my "boat". Just
look out for termites etc. Nice one.
K
kony
Then what about people who have already built into wooden or
plexiglass cases?
The supposed noise problem just does not exist, except noise
escaping the non-metal case and effecting some OTHER device
that receives it.
K
Ken Maltby
kony said:
All reasonable points, but there is no reason to avoid
any potential benefits from a common ground plane, or
maintaining the same condition, in that regard, as exists in
a normal metal case. A little wire or strap shouldn't be
that big a deal.
I like the idea of "remoting" the bays on the front of a
traditional case to the desktop. I would also install this
wood box on slides and/or hinges, so it would be more
accessible. The MB could be mounted "backwards"
as well, so all the rear connections would be handy.
With the PSU and internal HHD occupying their own
compartment, and airflow, you should factor that into
the design of the airflow across the MB.
Luck;
Ken
U
UCLAN
kony said:
What about them? What speed CPU are they using? What speed RAM? What
speed FSB? No intermittent "glitches" that had them scratching their
heads?
You mean *you* haven't experienced it. Others have and solved it with a
better ground. Don't believe me? I don't really care.
K
kony
I forgot to take that poll or log statistics, since nobody
could know you'd come along with this idea so easily
disproven by all the systems out there running fine, but
generally speaking they're using the same parts as everyone
else except the case.
The noise just doesn't cause any problems. The motherboard
/other PCBs themselves are designed to provide stable
operation without an additional ferrous ground plane a few
millimeters behind them.
Since plenty of systems sitting on benches also run fine,
you must be thinking of some kind of rare event. A better
description of this event would be useful.
"Better ground" is sufficiently vague to be unuseful.
Nobody with a properly designed PC motherboard needs a
"better ground" in the form of a metal chassis behind it,
UNLESS their area had very server leakage from some other
device which should not be operating because that other
device needed a grounded metal chassis to contain it's EMI.
The catch-22 is that if the computer is not then grounded,
it may effect some other devices. This leads to the
possibility that if you had several motherboards very
closely spaced on non-metal shelves, "maybe" they would
interact with each other, but that is not the scenario
posted in this thread, and that is also unlikely because
even when a system is inside a metal case, that only keeps
external signals out, all the parts in same case are still
interacting. Some particularly sensitive audio circuits
might be effected the most, since the nature of analog is in
signal levels instead of absolute thresholds.
M
~misfit~
Somewhere on teh interweb kony typed:
Kony, unless you have spare time to dedicate to the pastime of arguing
you're best leaving this guy alone. I've had him killfiled ever since he
admitted that he was trolling (although he phrased it like "I enjoy a good
argument" or similar).
IMO it's best to keep this group for the discussion of comp.hardware and let
him go elsewhere for his perverse thrills. As always, your choice tho.
Kony, unless you have spare time to dedicate to the pastime of arguing
you're best leaving this guy alone. I've had him killfiled ever since he
admitted that he was trolling (although he phrased it like "I enjoy a good
argument" or similar).
IMO it's best to keep this group for the discussion of comp.hardware and let
him go elsewhere for his perverse thrills. As always, your choice tho.
K
kony
Somewhere on teh interweb kony typed:
Kony, unless you have spare time to dedicate to the pastime of arguing
you're best leaving this guy alone. I've had him killfiled ever since he
admitted that he was trolling (although he phrased it like "I enjoy a good
argument" or similar).
IMO it's best to keep this group for the discussion of comp.hardware and let
him go elsewhere for his perverse thrills. As always, your choice tho.
I'm just looking for specifics. Maybe there's one place on
the moon where it matters but it shouldn't. RF equipment
needs to keep stray external signals out but not our digital
computer gear which is required to be wholey self-grounded,
autonomous of case grounding with the exception of the PSU
itself in that it's circuit board is meant to stay
permanently inside the PSU casing and not touched by the
assembler or end-user... but even then, the PSU case need
not be grounded to the system case for functionality
purposes.
U
UCLAN
kony said:
And you're knowledgeable of "all the systems out there running fine"...how?
As I said, just because *you* haven't seen the problem (?) doesn't mean
it doesn't exist. It does, and I've seen it.
Never said anything like that. All I suggested was a short cable back to the
PSU, and to NOT rely solely on the relatively high impedance of the DC power
cable. A "better ground" in this discussion is just what has been said - one
that is a lower impedance to high frequency noise than is the PSU DC power
cable.
U
UCLAN
~misfit~ said:
Heh, heh. Still sore that you lost the America's Cup argument, I see.
And "enjoying a good argument (or similar)" is the same as trolling in
your book?
IMO it's best to keep this group for the discussion of comp.hardware and let
him go elsewhere for his perverse thrills. As always, your choice tho.
I doubt many would term suggesting a proper ground a "perverse thrill",
but maybe things are different down in New Zealand.
K
kony
So you claim, and yet no specifics.
I know they all do because that is how they are designed.
There are no PC parts, short of a TX/RX radio instrument
(like a wifi NIC, except if/when those need shielding they
have the shield on them already) that need it.
This is a necessary part of design because as I'd already
mentioned, the parts are inside a case that does not shield
one part from the next besides that shielding built into the
card (ground planes as needed).
How is it you feel a short cable back to the PSU is somehow
better than the existing 9 ground leads on the ATX wiring
harness? There simply is no need for this. Show us a
motherboard that needs this, a reproducible problem when
this board doesn't have the case as ground plane behind it.
W
w_tom
Reasons to justify that short ground cable are correct. That wire
back to power supply does have higher impedance. Then we add missing
facts. That high wire impedance is made irrelevant by electrolytic
and tantalum capacitors located on the motherboard that are necessary
to create a lower impedance. Impedance lower than anything provided
by a short ground cable.
One problem with a wooden chassis. Switches are rated for 20,000
volts so that human generated static electricity does not flow into
computer circuits. But that 20,000 volt isolation assumes the switch
body is chassis grounded so that static electric current has a path to
the room's floor without going through electronics. Current must flow
somewhere. A switch mounted on wood would no long provide that
alternative current path. Therefore 20,000 volts would pass into the
computer through switch causing a computer crash (maybe even damage).
Many external parts (switches, cable connectors) provide electronics
protection if their body (ie D connector shell) is grounded to a
chassis; not via motherboard. This protection is lost if wood
mounting surface does not have a conductive material (ie conductive
paint) connected back to AC safety ground wire.
As Kony notes, incoming (external) noise does not mal affect any
properly constructed motherboard. That shielding is required to meet
FCC emission standards. A solution to outgoing RF; not for incoming
noise.
M
~misfit~
Somewhere on teh interweb UCLAN typed:
First sign that the person you're talking to is a troll; They rewrite
history.
Second sign; They try to engage you in an argument, often by rewriting
history.
Yes, when it's in an inappropriate group. As I'm sure you are aware, there
are groups where 'arguments' are all they do.
I refuse to play your silly games. I'm here to discuss hardware and share
knowledge. Not play "argument" and one-upmanship. There are other groups for
that. However, I suspect that they are above your league, leaving you to
plague this group with your penchant for disharmony.
Now I'll consign this new return-to addy you adopted to defeat my killfile
(third sign of a troll) into the bozo bin, along with your last.
First sign that the person you're talking to is a troll; They rewrite
history.
Second sign; They try to engage you in an argument, often by rewriting
history.
Yes, when it's in an inappropriate group. As I'm sure you are aware, there
are groups where 'arguments' are all they do.
I refuse to play your silly games. I'm here to discuss hardware and share
knowledge. Not play "argument" and one-upmanship. There are other groups for
that. However, I suspect that they are above your league, leaving you to
plague this group with your penchant for disharmony.
Now I'll consign this new return-to addy you adopted to defeat my killfile
(third sign of a troll) into the bozo bin, along with your last.
M
~misfit~
Somewhere on teh interweb kony typed:
<snip>
I know that you're looking for specifics and persuing the truth. The trouble
is, he knows it too. That's why he'll string you along for as long as he
can, all the while rubbing himself and "enjoying the argument".
<snip>
I know that you're looking for specifics and persuing the truth. The trouble
is, he knows it too. That's why he'll string you along for as long as he
can, all the while rubbing himself and "enjoying the argument".
G
GT
w_tom said:
My switch is currently mounted into the plastic front of my case - the most
static collecting material in this room (I'm not wearing any polyester)!. It
is not grounded, but connected directly to the motherboard via 2 wires
forming a basic, unearthed DC circuit. There is no ground connection from
any of the front panel LEDs or the 2 switches, so what difference would it
make if I replace the static-gathering front plastic panel with a non-static
gathering wooden one?
G
GT
philo said:
Shielding from what? I have been running with the side off the PC for about
6 months now, so a wooden side will offer more shielding than it has at
present.
K
kony
If there were only one, but there are 9 of them at least.
Remember also that having a motherboard ground plane to a
trace going to a standoff pad to a brass standoff to a metal
tray is also impedance.
.... plus the ceramics quite close to the chips.
Most switches are not chassis grounded anymore, they are
small plastic bodied and held in place by an additonal
plastic frame which clips or screws into the front wall of
the chassis. Front panel USB and audio are still typically
grounded through PCB they're mounted on, to metal chassis.
This would be my main concern, that ESD flows through them.
K
kony
True, front plastic switches are typically ungrounded to
chassis because of cheapness and convenience. Something
like a USB port would still be a reasonable candidate to
ground, it's metal frame to motherboard ground or to the PSU
IF you'll be having and plugging these ports.
Static generation need not come from wearing polyester nor
the case panel unless something were rubbed across it,
simply walking across some carpeting can cause it to some
degrees if humidity levels are not high enough.
G
GT
kony said:
Absolutely, but my point was that the switches are not grounded at present,
so it won't make any difference if they are moved from a plascic housing to
a wooden one and therefore 'w_tom's point was.. er.. pointless!
U
UCLAN
kony said:
??? They are designed with being grounded to a metal chassis in mind,
not with a wood or plexiglass chassis.
The individual ground planes all rely on a low impedance path back
to common ground. The power supply DC return does NOT provide a low
impedance for high frequency noise. Why do you think the MB ground
plane is grounded with metallic screws to the metallic chassis?
I don't care if there are 100 ground leads if they all look like a
high impedance to high frequency noise. If you *really* believe that
the PSU DC return path is sufficient, do you use fiber washers between
all standoffs and the MB? Of course not. But with a wooden chassis,
that low impedance ground path is not possible. Hence, the short ground
wire back to the PSU.
U
UCLAN
~misfit~ said:
Killfile malfunctioning?
Rewriting history? Sure you want to revisit that thread? I didn't think so.
And what better group to discuss computer MB grounding in a wooden chassis
than a computer hardware group?
I see. Disagreeing with Kony over MB grounding is "one-upmanship" ??
No "return-to" address was used. The complete headers can be viewed at:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.hardware/msg/e6a0d014569a5493?dmode=source
I replied to the group. No amount of fabrication on your part can change that.
It just shows that - once again - those that boast about placing somebody in
a killfile usually don't. And that liars are usually easily exposed.