CPU Cooler designs?

G

Gerry_uk

Hi,

As I understand it, most ATX style PC setups have a fan above the CPU
that blows air down onto the CPU to keep it cool, and the hot air
bounces around inside the PC case until it can find an exit (if it's lucky).

As I see it, there are two problems with this,

a) unless you have a vent in the side of the PC case, the air being
taken in by the CPU cooler will not be cool, because it's air from
inside the PC case?

b) the hot air from the bottom of the heat sink ends up warming up the
Motherboard?

I was looking at the Dell CPU coolers of the GX280, GX620 workstaions
(Intel P4 / Pentium D) and the PE2400, PE 2600, PE2800 servers (Intel
Xeon). The design is completely different. The air is sucked in from the
front of the case, straight over the CPU and out of the back - how cool
is that? Pretty cool, and there's hardly any noise either.
 
R

Rod Speed

Gerry_uk said:
As I understand it, most ATX style PC setups have a fan above the CPU that blows air down onto the
CPU to keep it cool, and the hot air
bounces around inside the PC case until it can find an exit (if it's lucky).

No luck involved, there is normally at least the power supply
fan than moves the air inside the case to outside the case.
As I see it, there are two problems with this,
a) unless you have a vent in the side of the PC case, the air being taken in by the CPU cooler
will not be cool, because it's air from inside the PC case?

Quite a few of the later cases have a duct
that supplys outside air to the cpu and fan.
b) the hot air from the bottom of the heat sink ends up warming up the Motherboard?

In practice that really doesnt produce much of a problem.
I was looking at the Dell CPU coolers of the GX280, GX620 workstaions
(Intel P4 / Pentium D) and the PE2400, PE 2600, PE2800 servers (Intel
Xeon). The design is completely different. The air is sucked in from
the front of the case, straight over the CPU and out of the back -
how cool is that? Pretty cool, and there's hardly any noise either.

Its just one way of doing things.
 
R

Ron Krebs

Gerry_uk said:
Hi,

As I understand it, most ATX style PC setups have a fan above the CPU
that blows air down onto the CPU to keep it cool, and the hot air
bounces around inside the PC case until it can find an exit (if it's lucky).

As I see it, there are two problems with this,

a) unless you have a vent in the side of the PC case, the air being
taken in by the CPU cooler will not be cool, because it's air from
inside the PC case?

b) the hot air from the bottom of the heat sink ends up warming up the
Motherboard?

I was looking at the Dell CPU coolers of the GX280, GX620 workstaions
(Intel P4 / Pentium D) and the PE2400, PE 2600, PE2800 servers (Intel
Xeon). The design is completely different. The air is sucked in from the
front of the case, straight over the CPU and out of the back - how cool
is that? Pretty cool, and there's hardly any noise either.

My Gigabyte Aurora pulls air in from front bottom via 120mm fan and then
expels it from the back via two 120mm fans at middle and top of chassis.
Now, if I position the Zalman 9500 so that its fan intake side is parallel
to the front of the case(facing it), then the CPU cooler should actually
help facilitate the cooling air flow as the external air is pulled in from
front bottom, passed through the CPU cooler fan/fins and proceeds out the
back. No whirling flow patterns, just a nice line through the case and over
the motherboard. Only problem: My OCZ PS has a fan underneath its case
pointing downward at the mobo with another out the back. Hopefully, this
downward fan actually sucks air up through the PS box and out the back. If
so, it will probably add even more to the air evac. If not, then there's a
flow conflict. We'll see when I get it all hooked up. But there is no other
fan blowing air down from above and I've never seen any ATX case that
deliberately does this either. Only from PSUs that have bottom fans. My old
Supermicro full tower does the exact same thing. Cool air from front bottom
to exhaust fans back top. This isn't new thermal management, they've been
doing this for awhile. Even side air duct cases have been out for awhile.

Ron
 
K

kony

Hi,

As I understand it, most ATX style PC setups have a fan above the CPU
that blows air down onto the CPU to keep it cool, and the hot air
bounces around inside the PC case until it can find an exit (if it's lucky).

No, a properly set up case has a bottom front intake and a
center and top rear exhaust. Heated air exhausted out of
the heatsink is moving towards the exhaust fans at all
times. A small percentage of it will get recirculated back
though the heatsink, BUT, attempts to change this will
typically reduce overall airflow, so it can have a
diminishing return (or even be worse) trying to minimize
recirculation.

As I see it, there are two problems with this,

a) unless you have a vent in the side of the PC case, the air being
taken in by the CPU cooler will not be cool, because it's air from
inside the PC case?

You do not want a vent in the side unless the entire system
is set up to still maintain reasonable airflow considering
the effect of that side vent.

Remember one very important factor in proper system setup:

Each part is supposed to have adequate heat removal method,
including sufficient 'sink. The focus is never to try to
get CPU the most air, nor most cool air. Incoming air does
as described above, comes on the bottom front and travels
towards the top rear. It is supposed to remove the heat
from the HDDs, southbridge or single-chip on motherboard,
flow by the video card, and anything else in this lower/mid
region. If you try to change this flow by drawing in air
near the CPU, you will necessarily reduce cooling of the
other parts unless other addt'l accomdations are made to
cool them.

The CPU has a huge heatsink on it, these other parts do not
(even video card, is not usually "huge" in comparison). The
other parts depend on the passive airflow while the CPU has
a fan.

b) the hot air from the bottom of the heat sink ends up warming up the
Motherboard?

It doesn't matter because:

1) The air is not extremely hot, parts that don't produce
much heat can stand to be a little warmer than they would
have been had there been no CPU heat.

2) The few parts that are warmer than this heated air, will
be cooled by it still.

I was looking at the Dell CPU coolers of the GX280, GX620 workstaions
(Intel P4 / Pentium D) and the PE2400, PE 2600, PE2800 servers (Intel
Xeon). The design is completely different.

No, the design is exactly the same, except they do without
the CPU sink fan by putting a duct on the rear.

It can be quieter, or it can be same noise level as a
well-designed system. The reason for this is that the rear
fan has to spin faster because of the snorkel, and because
you wouldn't be comparing apples:apples if only considering
systems that don't use RPM-reduced throttling of the fans as
the Dell systems typically do.

The reality is that Dell saves $1 or 2 by eliminating one
fan, but if a system is not budget constrained (or profit
maximized, however you want to look at it), the alternative
system can run cooler than Dell's can, because the rear fan
can more more air without the duct, and a heatsink with a
fan on it can have that fan running at low enough RPM that
it is not descriminable over the noise of the rear fan (what
little there is).

In the end, there is one simple truth: You have a case that
has parts producing X amount of heat. The heat buildup of
the parts inside depends on the total airflow rate in and
out of the system. When Dell uses the snorkel on the rear
fan, it has a lower airflow:noise ratio and thus, for the
given level of noise the lower airflow does not get the heat
out as fast, the chassis internal temp average is higher.

In some systems, spot-measurements of a given component will
be cooler in the Dell system. In others, warmer in the
Dell. On average, the Dell will be warmer overall, so if
you are concerned about CPU heat as it appeared when
starting your post, the most significant factor may be
whether the heatsink quality is better than Dell's or not.
It is a large market with many different 'sinks, some are
better, others are worse.
The air is sucked in from the
front of the case, straight over the CPU and out of the back - how cool
is that? Pretty cool, and there's hardly any noise either.

Cool? That's how many OEM systems have been set up for
years. If you want you can build your own like this, all
you need is to fabricate your own rear exhaust snorkel and a
suitable heatsink designed for passive cooling (typically
tall wider spaced tines instead of shorter, denser spaced
fins).
 
K

kony

the dell solution is the BX rather than the ATX cooling


On today's new systems, yes, but we have no idea which the
OP is looking at to make the observation... Dell has been
doing similar to what was described for years, as have other
OEMs.
 
V

Vanguard

Gerry_uk said:
Hi,

As I understand it, most ATX style PC setups have a fan above the
CPU that blows air down onto the CPU to keep it cool, and the hot
air bounces around inside the PC case until it can find an exit (if
it's lucky).

As I see it, there are two problems with this,

a) unless you have a vent in the side of the PC case, the air being
taken in by the CPU cooler will not be cool, because it's air from
inside the PC case?

b) the hot air from the bottom of the heat sink ends up warming up
the Motherboard?

I was looking at the Dell CPU coolers of the GX280, GX620
workstaions (Intel P4 / Pentium D) and the PE2400, PE 2600, PE2800
servers (Intel Xeon). The design is completely different. The air is
sucked in from the front of the case, straight over the CPU and out
of the back - how cool is that? Pretty cool, and there's hardly any
noise either.


You could cut a hole in the side panel and put a shroud around the CPU
fan so fresh cooler air gets sucked in and immediately used to cool
the CPU rather than on relying on air that has entered a foot or more
away and been pre-warmed by hard drives, memory sticks, Northbridge
chip, or whatever is between the front case grill and the CPU.
 
R

Ron Krebs

Vanguard said:
You could cut a hole in the side panel and put a shroud around the CPU
fan so fresh cooler air gets sucked in and immediately used to cool
the CPU rather than on relying on air that has entered a foot or more
away and been pre-warmed by hard drives, memory sticks, Northbridge
chip, or whatever is between the front case grill and the CPU.

I was under the impression that you just want the hot air drawn off the
components. I'm not so sure I'd want cool air pumped over my CPU. What
happens when a cold front hits a warm front? I'm not suggesting it would
rain inside my case, but wouldn't condensation come into play? My box will
be in an AC environment and sometimes that cool air is actually cold. Now
maybe the hot components stay hot enough to evaporate that, but just to make
sure, I'll throw a couple of silicon packs in the bottom of my case. Think
that'll help? : )

Ron
 
M

Mitch Crane

I was under the impression that you just want the hot air drawn off
the components. I'm not so sure I'd want cool air pumped over my CPU.
What happens when a cold front hits a warm front? I'm not suggesting
it would rain inside my case, but wouldn't condensation come into
play? My box will be in an AC environment and sometimes that cool air
is actually cold. Now maybe the hot components stay hot enough to
evaporate that, but just to make sure, I'll throw a couple of silicon
packs in the bottom of my case. Think that'll help? : )

When the cool air hits the warm stuff inside the case it will get warmer
and the relative humidity of that air will drop. If you had cold stuff in
the case and you were pumping warm outside air onto it then you might have
a condensation problem, as can occur with some extreme phase-change type
coolers.
 
V

Vanguard

Mitch Crane said:
When the cool air hits the warm stuff inside the case it will get
warmer
and the relative humidity of that air will drop. If you had cold
stuff in
the case and you were pumping warm outside air onto it then you
might have
a condensation problem, as can occur with some extreme phase-change
type
coolers.


Guess Ron forgot that the air is *dryer* in winter when the air is
colder hence the higher sales of humidifiers in winter. Silicon packs
are useless when air is moving. They are used in sealed containers to
remove what moisture is there and would be *trapped* there.
 
R

Ron Krebs

Vanguard said:
Guess Ron forgot that the air is *dryer* in winter when the air is
colder hence the higher sales of humidifiers in winter. Silicon packs
are useless when air is moving. They are used in sealed containers to
remove what moisture is there and would be *trapped* there.

I sure did. Problem is, I don't run my box outside in cold, dry winter air.
Nope, it's in an AC environment where they run plenty of humidifiers. And
I'm disappointed my attempt at humor with the silicon packs was taken
literally. I guess I'll have to make a bigger smiley next time. Cheers,

Ron
 
V

Vanguard

Ron Krebs said:
I sure did. Problem is, I don't run my box outside in cold, dry
winter air.
Nope, it's in an AC environment where they run plenty of
humidifiers.

If it is cooler inside your PC's box than outside, why are you pumping
warm air into it to cause condensation problem?
 
T

techdude

The point is to continually "change the air" inside your case to keep
your components cooler. Whether you have air blowing in (and the air
inside air is forced out) or you have fans blowing out (and outside
air is drawn in) really makes no difference. I have fans blowing in
near the bottom and the fan near the top, including the power supply,
blowing out.

I saw a case mod where the guy had a duct from his AC going directly
into his case and it still wasn't raing or iceing up in there.
 
K

kony

The point is to continually "change the air" inside your case to keep
your components cooler. Whether you have air blowing in (and the air
inside air is forced out) or you have fans blowing out (and outside
air is drawn in) really makes no difference. I have fans blowing in
near the bottom and the fan near the top, including the power supply,
blowing out.

I saw a case mod where the guy had a duct from his AC going directly
into his case and it still wasn't raing or iceing up in there.


The problem is not pumping cold air into a warm case, it
would be pumping warm air into a cold case.
 
L

Larc

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:09:06 -0400, (e-mail address removed) wrote:

| I saw a case mod where the guy had a duct from his AC going directly
| into his case and it still wasn't raing or iceing up in there.

An AC vent directs cold air toward the front on my computer case where there are
two fans drawing air in. When the AC is on, CPU and mobo temps sometimes report
at less than room temp, especially soon after I turn the system on. Yet, I
never have condensation problems.

Larc



§§§ - Change planet to earth to reply by email - §§§
 
J

John Lewis

Hi,

As I understand it, most ATX style PC setups have a fan above the CPU
that blows air down onto the CPU to keep it cool, and the hot air
bounces around inside the PC case until it can find an exit (if it's lucky).

As I see it, there are two problems with this,

a) unless you have a vent in the side of the PC case, the air being
taken in by the CPU cooler will not be cool, because it's air from
inside the PC case?

b) the hot air from the bottom of the heat sink ends up warming up the
Motherboard?

I was looking at the Dell CPU coolers of the GX280, GX620 workstaions
(Intel P4 / Pentium D) and the PE2400, PE 2600, PE2800 servers (Intel
Xeon). The design is completely different. The air is sucked in from the
front of the case, straight over the CPU and out of the back - how cool
is that? Pretty cool, and there's hardly any noise either.

So what ??

That's exactly the way it is in conjunction with my rear case fan and
vented front-panel with my Zalman9500 @ 1600RPM on my X2 4400+
( o/c'd to 2.6GHz, absolute max. case temp 48 degrees C). Cools the
memory very effectively as well. The Zalman design is quite brilliant
for its efficiency and smart airflow pattern while still only slightly
over the CPU manufacturer's max. recommended heatsink weight. Which
is no worry on my A8N32-SLI with the provided board-stiffener
in the CPU area.

I am not familiar with the Dell hardware you describe ? BTX-style by
any chance ? In which case a high-performance video card will nicely
bake in the exhaust air from the CPU and memory area. Not surprising
in a totally CPU-centric motherboard design from the same wizards that
brought you the hand and foot-warmer called the P4-Prescott.

John Lewis
 
V

Vanguard

The point is to continually "change the air" inside your case to
keep
your components cooler. Whether you have air blowing in (and the air
inside air is forced out) or you have fans blowing out (and outside
air is drawn in) really makes no difference. I have fans blowing in
near the bottom and the fan near the top, including the power
supply,
blowing out.

I saw a case mod where the guy had a duct from his AC going directly
into his case and it still wasn't raing or iceing up in there.


Because your friend had the smarts to blow *colder* air into the case
so there would be no condensation when it hit the warmer parts.

Blowing air out the side panel means you are sucking in pre-warmed air
over the CPU before exhausting it. Blowing air into the case directly
at the CPU means you get the greatest temperature differential. Since
the PSU is nearby, the air warmed by the CPU gets drawn out and
exhausted through the PSU rather than over the memory sticks or
chipset. Either just use a hole and shroud with the existing CPU fan
or use a case fan with shroud in place of the CPU fan. Do no have a
case fan next to the CPU fan (but if you feel the need then make damn
sure they blow in the SAME direction and not at or away from each
other). One of the fans will end up restricting the other regarding
maximum airflow. If one blows more CFM than the other then the lesser
CFM fan acts as resistance to the higher CFM fan. This is the same
reason why you need to make sure your case's air intake matches or
exceeds your case's exhaust rate since you can't push out more than
you can suck in (although some have said a slight positive air
pressure inside the case reduces dust accumulation, but I've never
measure the amount of dust collected in my case and simply realize
that I need to blow it out twice a year).

Remember that while a greater temperature differential, using
water-cooled systems, peltier setups, or whatever that you are simply
increasing the possibility of cooling your components as much as
possible. You can't cool them faster than the thermal interface
allows; i.e., you could easily use excessive cooling beyond which the
heat cannot transfer across a metal plate any faster, so the extra
cooling is wasted. Similarly, for air cooling, buying a CPU fan that
is rated 50 CFM won't push that amount of air through the restrictive
air space between the heatsink fins (the fins cause turbulence and the
airflow has to take a 90-degree turn both of which equate to
resistance). You might find a 25 CFM fans cools just as well as a
much noisier 50 CFM fan. In fact, I've seen CPU and case temperatures
drop in some cases by reversing the backpanel fan so it is an intake
fan rather than an exhaust fan (its normal position) but you need to
test in your own case.
 
K

kony

Blowing air out the side panel means you are sucking in pre-warmed air
over the CPU before exhausting it. Blowing air into the case directly
at the CPU means you get the greatest temperature differential. Since
the PSU is nearby, the air warmed by the CPU gets drawn out and
exhausted through the PSU rather than over the memory sticks or
chipset.

Blowing air in (or having no side fan at all) results in the
most pre-heated air flowing over the memory or chipset.
Granted, the air might be slightly cooler.

The key to reducing warm air flowing in circular or
counterproductive directions is to not interfer with the
time-tested and proven chassis airflow pattern from bottom
front to mid-top rear.

By reducing the bottom front intake rate, by use of a side
intake if not another method, there are lower velocity flow
everywhere except into the 'sink. The exhaust fans will
exhaust at same rate (providing front intake was sufficient)
but a short-loop is created, any air not exhausted into the
air most immedate to the exhaust fan will take a longer path
till exhausted, and slower.

Side intake is mostly Intel's attempt to ship cheaper
heatsinks with P4, particularly Prescott CPUs. A properly
set up system has no need for the side intake and is usually
as well off having it blocked completely. The CPU is not
the only part that needs cooled and the heatsink selected
for it should be selected so as to do the job acceptibly
without other parts running warmer as a result.

Remember that while a greater temperature differential, using
water-cooled systems, peltier setups, or whatever that you are simply
increasing the possibility of cooling your components as much as
possible. You can't cool them faster than the thermal interface
allows;

Untrue/non-applicable. The thermal interface doesn't allow
or disallow, it is only a decrease in efficiency of transfer
from the warmer to the cooler part. This warm vs cool is
the key element as mentioned below.
i.e., you could easily use excessive cooling beyond which the
heat cannot transfer across a metal plate any faster, ...

False. If the cooling isn't much better, the difference may
not be significant change in temp (only a little), and the
CPU may not have needed to run cooler at all, BUT it will
run cooler with a better cooling system and exact same
thermal interface, because the better cooling results in the
cooler of the two parts (warm vs cool), being cooler than it
would have been. Thus, the thermal compound with the same
thermal transfer efficiency, is seeing a higher temp
differential between the two parts which must necessarily
result in a cooler CPU (all else being equal, same thickness
of thermal grease, flatness of mating parts, contact area to
top of CPU, etc).

... so the extra
cooling is wasted.

It might easily be wasted money, time, even materials to
throw away the stock sink (and years(?) later this 2nd sink)
if there wasn't a specific *need* to get the CPU any cooler
(like in an extremely hot environment or high overclocking),
if it ran cool enough to be stable and have acceptible
lifespan, OR if the improvement in the cooling was minimal,
such a slight drop in temp that it varies more by ambient
room temp than anything else.

Similarly, for air cooling, buying a CPU fan that
is rated 50 CFM won't push that amount of air through the restrictive
air space between the heatsink fins (the fins cause turbulence and the
airflow has to take a 90-degree turn both of which equate to
resistance).


A higher free-air rated fan will not push the free-air
volume through a heatsink, that much is true. On the other
hand, given a similar fan (dimensionally matching the other
fan and heatsink and at least as thick) that has the higher
CFM from higher RPM, that will result in more airflow
through the 'sink. Perhaps not a lot more- these fans have
relatively low static pressure potential, but even a little
more, will directly correspond to a reduction in heatsink
temp, which as mentioned above, will ultimately cool the CPU
more.

Increasing airflow has a quickly diminishing return though,
Seldom is it worthwhile to have a fan faster than around
3000 RPM unless a special circumstance or very poor fan
(typically undersized or at least too thin for the
application). Often it is desirable to have even lower RPM,
it can be acceptible to have CPU slightly hotter to
significantly decrease noise if the margin allows for it.

You might find a 25 CFM fans cools just as well as a
much noisier 50 CFM fan.

If all else were equal, no, it is impossible. If the
diameter of fan or thickness, or even an entirely odd
proprietary fan design were used on same heatsink, then
these other factors would have to be considered as well, but
taking same exact fan one can vary the voltage to produce
different RPM -> airflow (airflow will increase so long as
the fan isn't terribly undersized and already at it's
practical maximum flow rate into the pressurized area in the
'sink) and see the temp change. It may not change a lot
but it is an inescapable scientific truth that to whatever
extent this air (which is cooler than the 'sink) flow is
increased, there will be a corresponding decrease in 'sink
fin temp, conduction away from the base of the 'sink to this
lower temp region of the fins, and through the thermal
compound to the CPU. The conduction efficiency does not
change with the fixed variables (grease, heatsink metal) but
across mediums (CPU to 'sink or 'sink to air) the higher
temp differential does always result in lower temp.

Naturally if the temp difference is minor, especially if
being reported by a motherboard-mounted sensor, it may be so
slight a change as to be indiscriminable. I am not
suggested anyone improve their cooling at all, unless it is
overheating.
In fact, I've seen CPU and case temperatures
drop in some cases by reversing the backpanel fan so it is an intake
fan rather than an exhaust fan (its normal position) but you need to
test in your own case.

This should never be done, it necessarily increases temps of
other parts (unless the case was otherwise unusual in it's
airflow before this fan was flipped over). Cooling a CPU is
not a game where lowest number wins. Anyone who has a
stable system and CPU that doesn't die prematurely, "wins",
so long as they deem the noise level acceptible. However,
while keeping the CPU cool enough, focus is then shifted to
the rest of the system - a CPU is more heat tolerant than
many parts.
 
G

Gerry_uk

Hi kony,
A properly
set up system has no need for the side intake and is usually
as well off having it blocked completely.

Perhaps, but here's something to try.

Run your ordinary ATX fan cooled PC for two hours in the summer
including some time under load. Measure the CPU and MB temps, then
remove the side panel near the CPU, watch the temps FALL like a brick!
 

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