Won't boot from SATA drives

[Tony MS]

My system has an Asus A7N8X motherboard with 2 SATA HDs, by Hitachi and
Seagate. Runs XP SP2. After several years' good service, it has
developed a fault that it will not boot from these drives, nor recognise
them if I boot from a floppy. However, I can boot from an old IDE HD, or
from a CD, in which case the system recognises and manages the SATA
drives perfectly.

Seagate and Hitachi diagnostics, run from a floppy, disclose no problems
with the disks.

I've changed the power supply, which was my first suspect.

If I zero out either disk, then try a clean XP install, it fails
starting the second phase where it should boot from the HD.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions where to look or what tests to run next.

Regards

Tony MS

 

[Paul]

My system has an Asus A7N8X motherboard with 2 SATA HDs, by Hitachi and
Seagate. Runs XP SP2. After several years' good service, it has
developed a fault that it will not boot from these drives, nor recognise
them if I boot from a floppy. However, I can boot from an old IDE HD, or
from a CD, in which case the system recognises and manages the SATA
drives perfectly.

Seagate and Hitachi diagnostics, run from a floppy, disclose no problems
with the disks.

I've changed the power supply, which was my first suspect.

If I zero out either disk, then try a clean XP install, it fails
starting the second phase where it should boot from the HD.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions where to look or what tests to run
next.

Regards

Tony MS

First thing I'd try, is record any custom BIOS settings, shut down
and unplug, then follow the "clear CMOS" procedure in the motherboard
manual. Then, plug in, switch on, and go into the BIOS. Setup the
BIOS again, set the boot order, and try to boot.

You could also try reflashing the BIOS, but that really shouldn't be
necessary, as the BIOS has a checksum over the main section, and
during POST, if there was a problem with the integrity of the
BIOS image, odds are it would be detected. There have been some
cases, where older computers get "bit rot", and the odd byte in
the BIOS flash chip will be corrupted.

Note that making an archival copy of the BIOS, and comparing it
with a binary comparison tool, will only give you gray hairs.
Portions of the BIOS chip are read-only and a couple segments
are read/write. Any time the DMI/ESCD section needs to be updated,
it gets rewritten during POST. As long as you are aware which
regions those are, you can still use binary comparison as a tool
to evaluate whether there is bit rot or not. DMI/ESCD is in its
own little area, so if some bytes got changed elsewhere, they should
stand out.

The reason I hesitate to push you into flashing the BIOS, is there
are many different versions of those motherboards, and it is
real easy when visiting the Asus site, to get the wrong BIOS file.
One mistake, and it'll cost you $25 at badflash.com, to get another
BIOS chip, to bail yourself out of the mess. And you'd still have
to identify the correct BIOS file to use. Better to make a
backup copy first, and see if you can match that file, to what
you see on the Asus site.

Also, another warning, is about the use of RAID with the SIL3112
(assuming that is what is being used). This would only apply if
you were using RAID. As time passes, it will become harder to find
PCI cards with SIL3112 or SIL3114 chips on them. If you don't have
a backup of those disks, and the motherboard dies taking the SIL3112
with it, and you want to read the RAID0 data off the disks, having a
spare PCI card you can put in another computer, is good insurance.

If the disks are just vanilla, and are not RAID mode, then I assume
you've already checked that you can read them in another computer.
A little checking now, could pay off in the future, especially if
you don't like making backups.

Paul

 

[Tony MS]

Hi Paul

Many thanks for this extensive response.

I can't find anything in the motherboard that would correspond to "clear
CMOS". I've messed around with the boot order quite a bit, to no effect.

Maybe the next step is refreshing the BIOS. However, mine is rev 1006,
for use with PCB revision 1.03, 1.04, and 1.06 only, and my PCB is rev
2.00, so there is clearly plenty of scope for a big screw-up here!

I'm not using the RAID, so that's one less complication.

My guess is that there is a timing issue, and that the MB is not waiting
long enough for a response now, but was just ok before.

Regards

Tony MS

 

[Bigdawg]

ok everyone fools around with stuff when its not working. but did you reset
the jumper to disable the SATA? its below the battery but above the SATA
chipset. if not try removing the jumper and reseating it. I have 2 of the
deluxe boards and they have been very reliable for years. This board will
not do the JBOD so each drive on the SATA has to be set individually if you
do not use the RAID settings. Good luck.

 

[Paul]

Hi Paul

Many thanks for this extensive response.

I can't find anything in the motherboard that would correspond to "clear
CMOS". I've messed around with the boot order quite a bit, to no effect.

Maybe the next step is refreshing the BIOS. However, mine is rev 1006,
for use with PCB revision 1.03, 1.04, and 1.06 only, and my PCB is rev
2.00, so there is clearly plenty of scope for a big screw-up here!

I'm not using the RAID, so that's one less complication.

My guess is that there is a timing issue, and that the MB is not waiting
long enough for a response now, but was just ok before.

Regards

Tony MS

I don't have all the A7N8X manuals on this machine, but the one I do have
access to mentions "Clear RTC RAM (CLRTC1)". If you have the PDF version
of the manual, try looking for terms like that. The CLRTC1 should be a
three pin header, and you move a shorting jumper to clear the CMOS. But
the power must be off, for safety. Some motherboards have been damaged,
by moving the jumper while +5VSB (the thing that lights the green LED
on the motherboard) is present.

Sure, it could be a timing issue, but why hasn't it affected you to date ?
I could see it on the Hitachi, because there were some models that
had a (timing) problem like that. Less likely with the Seagate.
For me, the fact that both drives were affected, suggested a BIOS
issue, like it was struck dumb. Funny symptoms have happened, due
to corrupted CMOS ram contents (the BIOS uses those), and clearing
the CMOS is how you fix that.

Paul

 

[VanguardLH]

My system has an Asus A7N8X motherboard with 2 SATA HDs, by Hitachi
and Seagate. Runs XP SP2. After several years' good service, it has
developed a fault that it will not boot from these drives, nor
recognise them if I boot from a floppy. However, I can boot from an
old IDE HD, or from a CD, in which case the system recognises and
manages the SATA drives perfectly.

Seagate and Hitachi diagnostics, run from a floppy, disclose no
problems
with the disks.

I've changed the power supply, which was my first suspect.

If I zero out either disk, then try a clean XP install, it fails
starting the second phase where it should boot from the HD.

Time to replace the CMOS battery. Sounds like the BIOS reverted back
to some default settings, like the SATA BIOS not being enabled.
Besides selecting the SATA drive in the boot order sequence, you'll
also need to make sure the SATA BIOS is enabled. I don't have your
mobo. In mine, there is the system BIOS and the SATA BIOS. First to
show up is the system BIOS (where I have to change boot drive order to
specify the SATA device). Second is the SATA BIOS (where I have to
enable it to actually use the SATA devices). With only one enabled,
the SATA drive won't get used for booting.

 

[Tony MS]

Sounds promising, thanks. I'll buy a new battery when the shops open
tomorrow

Cheers

Tony MS

 

[Tony MS]

Thanks

Done the clear, and no joy yet

Cheers

Tony MS

 

[Anna]

My system has an Asus A7N8X motherboard with 2 SATA HDs, by Hitachi and
Seagate. Runs XP SP2. After several years' good service, it has developed
a fault that it will not boot from these drives, nor recognise them if I
boot from a floppy. However, I can boot from an old IDE HD, or from a CD,
in which case the system recognises and manages the SATA drives perfectly.

Seagate and Hitachi diagnostics, run from a floppy, disclose no problems
with the disks.

I've changed the power supply, which was my first suspect.

If I zero out either disk, then try a clean XP install, it fails starting
the second phase where it should boot from the HD.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions where to look or what tests to run
next.

Regards

Tony MS

Tony MS:
I'm not sure that this is some timing or CMOS battery problem (as has been
suggested by some responders to your query) that's causing the problem you
describe.

This may very well be a SATA controller driver issue since the ASUS A7NX8
series of motherboards does not contain a chipset that has "built-in" SATA
controller driver support.

But that's not entirely clear from your description of your problem. You say
that you have "zero(ed) out" your two SATA HDDs. That being so, you've
attempted to make a fresh install of the XP OS on both the Hitachi & Seagate
SATA HDDs, right?

Assuming that's the case - one or two questions...

When you boot to the XP OS installation CD, are you indicating that the
system initially detects whichever SATA HDD you're using to install the OS?
In other words you're able to at least begin the installation of the XP OS,
but the installation (as you put it) "fails starting the second phase where
it should boot from the HD."? (I'm assuming in all this that *no* other HDDs
are connected to the system when you attempt to install the XP OS onto one
or the other of your SATA HDDs).

If that be the case, i.e., the system *initially* detects the SATA HDD
immediately, i.e., you receive no error message that the system has failed
to detect a hard drive, following your boot to the XP installation CD to
begin the installation of the OS, then this would *not* suggest a SATA
controller driver as I suggested.
Anna

 

[Tony MS]

Hi Anna

All your suppositions are correct. The SATA drive has been zeroed, it's
the only one connected during attempted XP installation, XP happily
recognises the disk and allocates partitions, but fails when it tries to
reboot.

I understand you to be saying then that the problem is probably not the
SATA controller

Thanks

Tony MS

 

[Tony MS]

Regrettably, the new battery didn't solve the problem.

In mine, the system BIOS makes no reference to the SATA BIOS, there are
no settings of the kind you suggest. However, the symptoms are as you
suggest.

Regards

Tony MS

 

[Anna]

Hi Anna

All your suppositions are correct. The SATA drive has been zeroed, it's
the only one connected during attempted XP installation, XP happily
recognises the disk and allocates partitions, but fails when it tries to
reboot.

I understand you to be saying then that the problem is probably not the
SATA controller

Thanks

Tony MS

Tony:
Yes, it would seem that this would *not* be a SATA controller driver issue
as I earlier suggested since you indicate that when you boot to these
unpartitioned/unformatted SATA HDDs (*both* the Hitachi & the Seagate at
different times) with the XP OS installation CD, in an attempt to fresh
install the OS, the system encounters *no* initial problem in detecting the
existence of the SATA HDD. And that's what you're indicating, right? And for
*both* SATA HDDs, right?

And you're saying that you're able to create partitions and format same
using the XP OS installation CD, right? But that the installation of the OS
"fails" at some point "when it tries to reboot". What do you mean by that?
You're able to complete some portion of the OS installation process but
midway through the process it "fails"?

Could you be more precise about this? How does it "fail"? At precisely what
point? How far do you get with the installation process? I assume you've
tried it a number of times. Is it always at the same point it "fails"? What
exactly happens? A black screen? Any error message? Does the system simply
reboot to the opening screen of the XP OS installation CD?

Please be as precise & as detailed as you can in *exactly* describing the
problem.
Anna

 

[Tony MS]

Tony:
Yes, it would seem that this would *not* be a SATA controller driver issue
as I earlier suggested since you indicate that when you boot to these
unpartitioned/unformatted SATA HDDs (*both* the Hitachi & the Seagate at
different times) with the XP OS installation CD, in an attempt to fresh
install the OS, the system encounters *no* initial problem in detecting the
existence of the SATA HDD. And that's what you're indicating, right? And for
*both* SATA HDDs, right?

And you're saying that you're able to create partitions and format same
using the XP OS installation CD, right? But that the installation of the OS
"fails" at some point "when it tries to reboot". What do you mean by that?
You're able to complete some portion of the OS installation process but
midway through the process it "fails"?

Could you be more precise about this? How does it "fail"? At precisely what
point? How far do you get with the installation process? I assume you've
tried it a number of times. Is it always at the same point it "fails"? What
exactly happens? A black screen? Any error message? Does the system simply
reboot to the opening screen of the XP OS installation CD?

Please be as precise & as detailed as you can in *exactly* describing the
problem.
Anna

If I leave the XP CD in, it simply restarts the XP installation process
afresh. If I take it out, the system hangs after "Verifying DMI pool
data". Yes, tried many times with both SATA HDs

Also, if I try a floppy boot disk, with the correct SATA driver renamed
as NTBOOTDD.SYS, and modified BOOT.INI, it displays that it cannot
recognise the HD.

Regards

Tony MS

 

[Anna]

If I leave the XP CD in, it simply restarts the XP installation process
afresh. If I take it out, the system hangs after "Verifying DMI pool
data". Yes, tried many times with both SATA HDs

Also, if I try a floppy boot disk, with the correct SATA driver renamed as
NTBOOTDD.SYS, and modified BOOT.INI, it displays that it cannot recognise
the HD.

Regards

Tony MS

Tony MS:
I really don't know at this point what precisely is causing your problem.
And frankly, I'm not sure if I really understand the scenario here other
than the fact that you're obviously unable to fresh install the XP OS onto
either SATA HDD.

When you introduce into this picture references to a "floppy boot disk, with
the correct SATA driver renamed as NTBOOTDD.SYS, and modified BOOT.INI, it
displays that it cannot recognise the HD", this just muddies the water in
such a way as to make this problem you're experiencing incomprehensible - at
least incomprehensible to me. But more importantly my inability to try to
come up with a possible solution to your problem.

Hopefully someone who has come across this thread will be able to recommend
a possible course of action for you to take in resolving your problem.
Anna

 

[Paul]

If I leave the XP CD in, it simply restarts the XP installation process
afresh. If I take it out, the system hangs after "Verifying DMI pool
data". Yes, tried many times with both SATA HDs

Also, if I try a floppy boot disk, with the correct SATA driver renamed
as NTBOOTDD.SYS, and modified BOOT.INI, it displays that it cannot
recognise the HD.

Regards

Tony MS

Something you might try at this point, is downloading Knoppix (knopper.net)
or Ubuntu (ubuntu.com), and booting the computer with that. Both of those
Linux OSes can boot from a CD, without needing a hard drive.

The objective in that case, would be to see whether you can access the hard
drive or not. Both OSes should have an option to install their software to
the hard drive on request.

While you have that OS running from the CD, you can also erase the beginning
of the hard drive. Open a command terminal window in Linux, and try something
like:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=10000

The only tricky part of the command, is verifying the disk is at /dev/hda
or whatever.

What a command like that does, is erase the beginning of the hard drive.
I have had to do that on occasion, to be able to install an OS on a hard
drive. Some OSes do not like to find the remnants of the work that other
OSes have done, while installing. Clearing off the first few megabytes
of the disk, should blow away any structures at the beginning of the
disk. Naturally, don't use that "dd" or disk dump command, if
important drives containing data are still connected. To use
such a command, make sure that only your Linux boot CD is present,
and the single drive you are attempting to fix.

If attempts to do things to the disk are failing, it should then
be more obvious while using Ubuntu or Knoppix, that you have a
hardware problem. For determining hardware health, an alternate
environment is a handy thing to have. Both distros are a 700MB
download, in the form of an ISO file, and you burn that to a
CD using Nero or the like.

Paul

 

[Tony MS]

Something you might try at this point, is downloading Knoppix (knopper.net)
or Ubuntu (ubuntu.com), and booting the computer with that. Both of those
Linux OSes can boot from a CD, without needing a hard drive.

The objective in that case, would be to see whether you can access the hard
drive or not. Both OSes should have an option to install their software to
the hard drive on request.

While you have that OS running from the CD, you can also erase the
beginning
of the hard drive. Open a command terminal window in Linux, and try
something
like:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=10000

The only tricky part of the command, is verifying the disk is at /dev/hda
or whatever.

What a command like that does, is erase the beginning of the hard drive.
I have had to do that on occasion, to be able to install an OS on a hard
drive. Some OSes do not like to find the remnants of the work that other
OSes have done, while installing. Clearing off the first few megabytes
of the disk, should blow away any structures at the beginning of the
disk. Naturally, don't use that "dd" or disk dump command, if
important drives containing data are still connected. To use
such a command, make sure that only your Linux boot CD is present,
and the single drive you are attempting to fix.

If attempts to do things to the disk are failing, it should then
be more obvious while using Ubuntu or Knoppix, that you have a
hardware problem. For determining hardware health, an alternate
environment is a handy thing to have. Both distros are a 700MB
download, in the form of an ISO file, and you burn that to a
CD using Nero or the like.

Paul

Hi Paul

Yes, I do have Knoppix, although I've never learned to drive it properly.

I've effectively done what you suggest, using the Hitachi and Seagate
diagnostic software, which run on FreeDOS and/or DRDOS. I've used them
to zero and test the entire disks.

Cheers

Tony

 

[Paul]

Hi Paul

Yes, I do have Knoppix, although I've never learned to drive it properly.

I've effectively done what you suggest, using the Hitachi and Seagate
diagnostic software, which run on FreeDOS and/or DRDOS. I've used them
to zero and test the entire disks.

Cheers

Tony

OK, time for a review.

You have an "A7N8X Deluxe" ? It has a SIL3112 chip on it, while the
vanilla A7N8X doesn't have the chip soldered on.

There is a jumper ("Bigdawg" mentioned the jumper). The jumper is for
enable/disable of the SIL3112. We know that works, because you've
been able to do things to the disk(s).

The controller is not on the Southbridge. That means, during install
of Windows, you pressed F6 and installed some kind of SiliconImage
disk driver.

That BIOS is unique, in that the add-in Silicon Image RAID
module in the BIOS, has no configuration done in the main
BIOS screen. So there is no option to select there, such as
RAID or non-RAID.

If you enter the BIOS, and press <control-S>, that is supposed
to bring up the RAID setup screen. I haven't heard you mention
the word RAID, so there would normally be no reason to go in
there. I want you to go in there anyway, to prove that the
SiliconImage module in the BIOS is being loaded during POST startup.
If the module loads, then it is more likely to also be offering
INT 0x13 service, for reading the disks during a boot attempt.
(In some BIOSes, you have to enable something, to get add-in
modules to load, but there is no option I can see in the
Asus manual for that. Which means it is always going to try to
load, at least until it sees that the minimum number of SATA
disks is not installed.)

In the RAID setup screen, you should see your two disks, with
a notation that they aren't RAID or anything. Or maybe they
are RAID ? What configuration were you using, when this
stuff worked ?

Now when I check the manual, and check the last page here, I see
that non-RAID mode is not supported. What driver are you using
in Windows that allows you to see the disk(s). Were they once
a RAID1 mirror array, and now you see two disks ?

http://support.asus.com/technicaldocuments/SiI3112A.pdf

"6 Using Hard Drives as Non-RAID

Drives connected to the Silicon Image RAID connectors do not
support non-RAID function."

Perhaps you could explain a bit more, how you are planning on
setting these up, with your WinXP install.

Paul

 

[Tony MS]

OK, time for a review.

You have an "A7N8X Deluxe" ? It has a SIL3112 chip on it, while the
vanilla A7N8X doesn't have the chip soldered on.

There is a jumper ("Bigdawg" mentioned the jumper). The jumper is for
enable/disable of the SIL3112. We know that works, because you've
been able to do things to the disk(s).

The controller is not on the Southbridge. That means, during install
of Windows, you pressed F6 and installed some kind of SiliconImage
disk driver.

That BIOS is unique, in that the add-in Silicon Image RAID
module in the BIOS, has no configuration done in the main
BIOS screen. So there is no option to select there, such as
RAID or non-RAID.

If you enter the BIOS, and press <control-S>, that is supposed
to bring up the RAID setup screen. I haven't heard you mention
the word RAID, so there would normally be no reason to go in
there. I want you to go in there anyway, to prove that the
SiliconImage module in the BIOS is being loaded during POST startup.
If the module loads, then it is more likely to also be offering
INT 0x13 service, for reading the disks during a boot attempt.
(In some BIOSes, you have to enable something, to get add-in
modules to load, but there is no option I can see in the
Asus manual for that. Which means it is always going to try to
load, at least until it sees that the minimum number of SATA
disks is not installed.)

In the RAID setup screen, you should see your two disks, with
a notation that they aren't RAID or anything. Or maybe they
are RAID ? What configuration were you using, when this
stuff worked ?

Now when I check the manual, and check the last page here, I see
that non-RAID mode is not supported. What driver are you using
in Windows that allows you to see the disk(s). Were they once
a RAID1 mirror array, and now you see two disks ?

http://support.asus.com/technicaldocuments/SiI3112A.pdf

"6 Using Hard Drives as Non-RAID

Drives connected to the Silicon Image RAID connectors do not
support non-RAID function."

Perhaps you could explain a bit more, how you are planning on
setting these up, with your WinXP install.

Paul

Hi Paul

You're right that I've never been there before. When I ctr-S, it shows a
RAID setup screen, and displays basic data on the 2 SATA disks.

The system has been working non-RAID since I assembled it.

Cheers

Tony MS

 

[Paul]

Hi Paul

You're right that I've never been there before. When I ctr-S, it shows a
RAID setup screen, and displays basic data on the 2 SATA disks.

The system has been working non-RAID since I assembled it.

Cheers

Tony MS

So then, if you booted from it when it had the two drives on it,
what driver were you using ? Were you booted from some other
drive, and only used the two SATA for data ?

There are SIL3112 drivers listed here for WinXP, but they are
divided according to whether the BIOS module is RAID or BASE.
And the one in the Asus BIOS would be RAID.

http://www.siliconimage.com/support/supportsearchresults.aspx?pid=63&cid=3&ctid=2&osid=4&

Maybe I'm missing something, and the IDE driver will work with a
RAID BIOS. I don't know where you'd find a good reference on the
subject. (If I check the .INF file in the driver download,
I don't find a SUBSYS ID that matches an Asus board, so the
driver probably won't even "take" if you try it. Asus SUBSYS
is 1043, and the other four digits correspond to the motherboard
or PCI card.)

The <control-S> thing probably wouldn't work unless two drives
were connected. If one drive was connected, and already was
marked as a RAID array, that would probably work. But to
get the BIOS module to load, if no array had been declared,
you might need two drives to do that.

If you still have access to the boot disk with the WinXP install
on it, and you could look for driver files, maybe you can figure out
what it is using from that.

Paul

 

[Tony MS]

I used a driver supplied on an ASUS CD that came with the MB - Si3112r.sys.

So there must be a SATA driver somewhere in the BIOS, used for BOIS
setup and bootstrapping, and this one, used by XP from load-time onwards.

Tony