Wiring for internet

[V.K.]

My father received a laptop for his birthday but doesn't have an internet
connection. He doesn't want dial-up because it would tie up the phone lines.
Not all companies provide Broadband in his area and because he doesn't have
any Coaxil wiring his in house, Comcast suggested hiring an electrician. Any
suggestions? Thanks.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Comcast suggested hiring an electrician. Any
suggestions?

Don't hire an electrician. Years of habits die hard,
and communication cables should not be routed and
supported physically like power or burglar alarm
or voice telephone cables. For instance, coaxial
cable should not be stapled so tightly that it cannot
slide easily under the staple. For instance, cable
manufacturers specify a bend radius not less than
10 times the outer diameter of the cable. For quad-
shield RG6 (recommended for cable TV and internet
in metropolitan areas), that means no less than 5 inches
bend radius - the outer edge of a CD. For instance,
compression-fit connectors should be used, not
crimp-on connectors. Etc., etc. My advice is to get
an installer who has been trained by a cable TV
company. Comcast should be able to refer you to
some. If you can afford a professional com cable
installation company, go that route. But *don't* hire
an electrician or a burglar alarm company or a
telephone installer. Their years of habits will prevent
them from doing a good job. What are those habits?
Stapling everything down tightly, bending cable sharply
around corners, using crimp-on connectors, using
cheap splitters, because they haven't a clue about
impedance and signal reflections due to localized
impedance changes.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

For quadshield RG6 (recommended for cable TV
and internet in metropolitan areas), that means no
less than 5 inches bend radius - the outer edge of
a CD.

That should have read "no less than 2.5 inches
bend radius - the outer edge of a CD."

For instance, compression-fit connectors should
be used...

Brand names are Snap-N-Seal and Digicon.


*TimDaniels*

 

[kony]

My father received a laptop for his birthday but doesn't have an internet
connection. He doesn't want dial-up because it would tie up the phone lines.
Not all companies provide Broadband in his area and because he doesn't have
any Coaxil wiring his in house, Comcast suggested hiring an electrician. Any
suggestions? Thanks.

First, find out what alternatives there ARE for broadband.
Naturally Comcast, offering cable internet, will steer
towards that solution. There might be DSL available at his
location too and if so, it doesn't typically require wiring
changes.

With either alternative the typical solution is (that type
of) modem, connected to a wifi router. The laptop is likely
to have wifi ability already but if not, a card would be
added to gain it.

 

[jaster]

My father received a laptop for his birthday but doesn't have an internet
connection. He doesn't want dial-up because it would tie up the phone
lines. Not all companies provide Broadband in his area and because he
doesn't have any Coaxil wiring his in house, Comcast suggested hiring an
electrician. Any suggestions? Thanks.

The logical choice is DSL. You can take/make calls and surf at the same
time using the existing telephone line. Local telephone or ISP may
provide dsl, it may cost a bit but Verizon, AT&T and others are down to
$12-20 for the service in addition to your regular phone service charges.
Check with your phone company.

If you have Comcast they should have the complete package of cable, cable
phone and cable internet service but it depends on the area where you live.

He could add a wireless router and adapters for everyone so everyone
shares that DSL connection.

 

[kony]

Don't hire an electrician. Years of habits die hard,
and communication cables should not be routed and
supported physically like power or burglar alarm
or voice telephone cables. For instance, coaxial
cable should not be stapled so tightly that it cannot
slide easily under the staple. For instance, cable
manufacturers specify a bend radius not less than
10 times the outer diameter of the cable. For quad-
shield RG6 (recommended for cable TV and internet
in metropolitan areas), that means no less than 5 inches
bend radius - the outer edge of a CD. For instance,
compression-fit connectors should be used, not
crimp-on connectors. Etc., etc. My advice is to get
an installer who has been trained by a cable TV
company. Comcast should be able to refer you to
some. If you can afford a professional com cable
installation company, go that route. But *don't* hire
an electrician or a burglar alarm company or a
telephone installer. Their years of habits will prevent
them from doing a good job. What are those habits?
Stapling everything down tightly, bending cable sharply
around corners, using crimp-on connectors, using
cheap splitters, because they haven't a clue about
impedance and signal reflections due to localized
impedance changes.

*TimDaniels*

Pretty big indictment of a profession, especially
considering coax cabling has been around for a few dozen
years. It's not hard to string coax, even a kid can do it
if they keep in mind two of the things you mentioned- no
sharp right angles and not beating the cable into the wall
with the clips when stapling it down.

You are exaggerating the significance of connectors and
spliiters in this application. Going from the exterior box,
straight to the cable modem, or even if there's one splitter
and a second run to a TV, there would be something else
wrong if crimp-on connectors and the cheapest splitter you
could buy a Wal-Mart (or wherever) didn't get the job done.
Larger systems, more splitters, runs, connected equipment
makes it all more important but recognizing the requirements
of the application is important too. This job can work fine
with $20 worth of parts, or it could end up costing several
hundred with no actual gain. Not that I'm encouraging a job
that needs redone, but on the other hand this need not be
expensive to be wholly adequate for a mere cable modem
without strings of other devices, runs, splitters connected.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Don't hire an electrician. Years of habits die hard,
and communication cables should not be routed and
supported physically like power or burglar alarm
or voice telephone cables. For instance, coaxial
cable should not be stapled so tightly that it cannot
slide easily under the staple. For instance, cable
manufacturers specify a bend radius not less than
10 times the outer diameter of the cable. For quad-
shield RG6 (recommended for cable TV and internet
in metropolitan areas), that means no less than 5 inches
bend radius - the outer edge of a CD. For instance,
compression-fit connectors should be used, not
crimp-on connectors. Etc., etc. My advice is to get
an installer who has been trained by a cable TV
company. Comcast should be able to refer you to
some. If you can afford a professional com cable
installation company, go that route. But *don't* hire
an electrician or a burglar alarm company or a
telephone installer. Their years of habits will prevent
them from doing a good job. What are those habits?
Stapling everything down tightly, bending cable sharply
around corners, using crimp-on connectors, using
cheap splitters, because they haven't a clue about
impedance and signal reflections due to localized
impedance changes.

*TimDaniels*

Pretty big indictment of a profession, especially
considering coax cabling has been around for a few dozen
years. It's not hard to string coax, even a kid can do it
[......] This job can work fine
with $20 worth of parts, or it could end up costing several
hundred with no actual gain.

I stand by my indictment of the electrician trade for
installation of communication cabling - who cares how
long coaxial cable has been around? - electricians just
don't understand the effects that localized changes of
impedance have on signal propagation and what effects
the resulting signal reflectios have. I have seen too
many ham-fisted installations in more than one city and
more than several residences to ever trust them to do it
right even if they're given a job description in writing with
all the requirements spelled out. And that goes for CAT5
and CAT6 cabling as well as for coaxial cabling. Decades
of habits of their trade don't just die for a single job, and
they believe just as you do - that "cabling is just wiring".
And indeed, the job can be done cheaply - although $20 is
quite below the low side (have you priced compression-fit
attachment tools?) - and it can be done by a kid who follows
the rules. So go hire the kid, give him the proper tools and
hardware and have him do the cabling according to written
specs. But don't hire an electrician, an alarm installer, or a
telephone installer to do the work. They'll install cabling "just
like wiring".


*TimDaniels*

 

[kony]

Pretty big indictment of a profession, especially
considering coax cabling has been around for a few dozen
years. It's not hard to string coax, even a kid can do it
[......] This job can work fine
with $20 worth of parts, or it could end up costing several
hundred with no actual gain.

I stand by my indictment of the electrician trade for
installation of communication cabling - who cares how
long coaxial cable has been around?

It is significant, in that you seem to be implying someone
who does such things for a living can't grasp the concepts
inherant in a type of cable that is not new, not uncommon,
and not hard to string. I'd speculate that the typical
electrican doing installation work has several orders of
magnitude more experience with it than you do.

- electricians just
don't understand the effects that localized changes of
impedance have on signal propagation and what effects
the resulting signal reflectios have.

Nor do you if you think this is a serious consideration for
a single-ended cable modem run with the correct spec parts,
which are as common as dirt.

I have seen too
many ham-fisted installations in more than one city and
more than several residences to ever trust them to do it
right even if they're given a job description in writing with
all the requirements spelled out. And that goes for CAT5
and CAT6 cabling as well as for coaxial cabling. Decades
of habits of their trade don't just die for a single job, and
they believe just as you do - that "cabling is just wiring".

Because it is "just wiring". EVERY wiring has it's own
requirements though, which is to say that like any other
wire, this is a very basic thing you try to make as much of
a difficult and expensive venture as possible.

And indeed, the job can be done cheaply - although $20 is
quite below the low side (have you priced compression-fit
attachment tools?)

You don't need one. Again you make a moutain out of a
molehill.

- and it can be done by a kid who follows
the rules. So go hire the kid, give him the proper tools and
hardware and have him do the cabling according to written
specs. But don't hire an electrician, an alarm installer, or a
telephone installer to do the work. They'll install cabling "just
like wiring".

Yes, because it IS wiring. Maybe you, not they, conclude
"just like wire" means 3 conductor solid core 12 ga.? Lots
of different wire out there, the former wire also has
considerations, all do.

Maybe you've been called to a 'site because of a problem,
possibly a small % of installers, electricians or not, have
not done it correctly. Those small % of problem
installations are not evidence against the large % of other
installations working properly.

If the cable company had problems with electricans
installing cable, why would they recommend it? I suspect
they have more experience with problematic wire
installations than you and better assessment of whether the
work would be satisfactory, thus their recommendation.

This could be a relatively inexpensive venture or very
expensive. For a single-ended indoor cable modem run, going
the expensive route isn't going to gain anything.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

It is significant, in that you seem to be implying someone
who does such things for a living can't grasp the concepts
inherant in a type of cable that is not new, not uncommon,
and not hard to string. I'd speculate that the typical
electrican doing installation work has several orders of
magnitude more experience with it than you do.

Electricians deal all their careers with pleasing
home owners who want "neat" and quick wiring done
at a low price. That leads them to develope work
habits that violate communication wiring standards
that they haven't even heard about, and due to their
lack of formal EE education, they don't even under-
stand. The satellite installer for our condo building
even thought minimum bend radii and compression-
fit connectors were excessive - until he started bidding
on federal contracts and found that those features
were specified in the requests for bid. Electricians
are electricians - not communication engineers -
for a reason.

Nor do you if you think this is a serious consideration for
a single-ended cable modem run with the correct spec parts,
which are as common as dirt.

My experience with being on the managing board of
a condo association for decades tells me that cabling for
internet is likely to also lead later to a subscription for cable
TV and/or satellite - both of which require more stringent
cabling specs. Why have to upgrade the cabling later
when you can get it right the first time?

Because it is "just wiring". EVERY wiring has it's own
requirements though, which is to say that like any other
wire, this is a very basic thing you try to make as much of
a difficult and expensive venture as possible.

Just as you wouldn't hire a butcher to do open heart
surgery, one shouldn't hire an electrician, who works
daily in an environment having greatly different requirements,
to have to teach his hands, much less his mind, to work
according to a set of standards he hasn't heard of and
doesn't understand.

You don't need one. Again you make a moutain out of a
molehill.

You, Korny, make an argument out of every molehill.


*TimDaniels*

 

[kony]

Electricians deal all their careers with pleasing
home owners who want "neat" and quick wiring done
at a low price. That leads them to develope work
habits that violate communication wiring standards
that they haven't even heard about,

That's a pretty big stretch, you really think electricans
that do wiring jobs haven't heard of wiring standards for
the wiring they use? Pray tell, who would you suggest DOES
then "hear" about wiring standards? Hate to burst your
bubble but electricians do a heck of a lot more wiring,
fine, than just mains AC.

and due to their
lack of formal EE education, they don't even under-
stand. The satellite installer for our condo building
even thought minimum bend radii and compression-
fit connectors were excessive - until he started bidding
on federal contracts and found that those features
were specified in the requests for bid. Electricians
are electricians - not communication engineers -
for a reason.

Sure, with any contract you have to bid on what's required.
Nothing new there, not really significant.

You really believe the vast majority of properly working
coax video cabling is strung by communication engineers?
Maybe in a TV studio or the CATV home office.

My experience with being on the managing board of
a condo association for decades tells me that cabling for
internet is likely to also lead later to a subscription for cable
TV and/or satellite - both of which require more stringent
cabling specs. Why have to upgrade the cabling later
when you can get it right the first time?

No it doesn't tell you that, it is still a guess without any
foundation. Grand generalizations are only useful in
particular cases when the particular case merit it. There
was no expressed desire for a full blown CATV setup.

You'd have this poor fellow's dad spend a few hundred, even
thousand(s) just to get a cable modem working. You're out
of your mind and have no common sense.

 

[don]

I agree that communication cabling and connectorization should not be in the
domain of the electrician, mostly because of the effects of high frequency
on signals, and signal reflections due to unmatched impedences and etc.

However I do have to admitt that the comunication specialists are charging
fees that are a little out of the ball park for me. And this is mostly
because of industry hype, the actual installers work for a wage that is
comparable to that of an electrician.

But...........what are ya gonna do.....pay me now or pay me later.

Whatever.