Windows app or ASP.NET ?

[Michael Starberg]

Maybe you should have. Nothing you wrote changes the reality that Web
applications are more complicated than Windows applications - which is
what my point was.

So your point came in 9 enumerated bullets,
with details why something is harder than something else.

Pretty blunt point you made.
What are you gonna stab with next?
A frisbee?

Or are your general suggestion
that we should all go back to VBScript,
as it is much easier to learn?

Bah. You lost me Smithers.

- Michael Starberg

 

[Michael Starberg]

Then I apologize for making such a thing of it.

I forgot to mention in my original message, I have been programming C#
using
VS 2005 for 6 months, but really have not much knowledge about the CSS,
session, web security (although several years ago I worked with web
project
using Javascript and HTML).

I agree I should start with Windows application but not sure WHEN I should
start learning ASP .NET?

Why not both at the same time.
Code the same app in both!

Can I just buy a book like Beginning ASP.NET with C# that go forward
without
through understanding of Javascript, CSS, HTMl, XHTML, sessions,
Ajax.....etc.

If you ever find such a book, let me know =)

- Michael Starberg

 

[Smithers]

So your point came in 9 enumerated bullets,
with details why something is harder than something else.

Yes - wasn't that nice of me? Instead of just making a vague and wild claim
that "Web apps are harder" - I concisely listed specifically how or why Web
apps are more complex. This was done to help the OP to make a rational
decision based on facts. I didn't do more than 9 because I figured 9 would
drive the point home that it's not just a few differences...

Pretty blunt point you made.
What are you gonna stab with next?
A frisbee?

This has nothing to do with being blunt. It has everything to do with (1)
backing up a point and (2) doing it briefly - while not being so brief as to
lose the point.

Or are your general suggestion
that we should all go back to VBScript,
as it is much easier to learn?

In none of my posts in this thread did I make any recommendation to learn
VBScript. In fact, my only reference to it was somewhat derogatory (... or,
if you are on the fringes, VBScript) - clearly implying that VBScript is a
less favorable alternative to JavaScript or ECMA Script.

What I did was point out specifically how Web applications require mastery
of more concepts and/or "components" than Windows Forms applications. In
doing that, I in no way questioned the merits of Web applications in
general. This was all to inform the OP of the reasoning behind the
recommendation for him to go with Windows Forms apps... the implication
being that he could focus more time on learning C# -which was HIS stated
objective. Going with a Web application would require him to learn things
beyond C# (his intended focus) additional things like HTML, CSS, and all
those other Web application-specific concepts I listed.

Bah. You lost me Smithers.

What a convenient time to get lost.

-S

 

[Smithers]

RE:

Note that the above is terrible advice because Web applications are *very*
different types of applications than Windows Forms applications. My posts
elsewhere tell you specifically why and how. There are so many things to
know that make an ASP.NET Web application, that it would be smart to budget
time for each of those things. Books by Dino Esposito would be helpful.
Additonally, you might want to find an ASP.NET "Reference Application".
Reference applications are completely operational programs intended for
didactic purposes. They typically come with excellent documentation, full
source code that his heavily commented, etc. These let you see how it all
hangs together. DOFActory (http://www.dofactory.com/Default.aspx) offers a
reference app - but you have to buy their suite (highly recommended
regardless). Vertigo Software did a few free ASP.NET Web apps for
Microsoft. Not sure where to find those now, but they should be readily
available on the Internet.

-HTH

-S

 

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Smithers,

As you point to the thread where I gave an advice, what is wrong with my
advice that when you start with ASPNET to be sure that you can give access
to your pages?

Can you do it without Internet (when it is about learning Internet is not
the question, and only creating pages for yourself is booring).

Cor

 

[Smithers]

Cor,

I didn't respond to your post.

I didn't address your advice.

I was responding to Alan T.

I was responding to the advice provided by Michael A Starberg (to learn both
simultaneously).

None of that had anything to do with you or your post.

-S

 

[Chris Shepherd]

I just replied in the original thread; see that. Briefly: A top-posted
reply is quicker to read because the reply is visible without scrolling
down. You normally do not need to scroll down to see the old material
because you are using a threaded newsreader and have already seen the prior
messages, in order. But if you do need it, it's there.

What you have just described (here and in the other portion of the
thread) has absolutely nothing to do with top/bottom posting, but rather
more to do with people needing to learn to trim things they are replying to.

Unless you have already read the prior messages in the thread.

I did indicate this below, but with one correction: Unless you have
*just* read the prior messages in the thread. Due to the nature of
usenet, it is possible for a single thread to span many days, thus the
entire discussion and items being discussed are not necessarily "fresh"
in your mind.

Exactly. That can add up to thousands of down-arrow presses during a short
session.

Page Down exists for this reason. That particular argument is weak,
especially when you factor in that I would have to read the bottom
portion of a top-posted reply anyways if I wasn't already intimately
familiar with what has been said. If I am already familiar with it, I
have no trouble picking out the responses from the quoted text,
especially since it's been decades since news readers began highlighting
or flagging quoted text in some fashion.

Messages with top-posted replies aren't intended to be read through. The
assumption is that normally, the latest reply is the only part you need to
see.

Your definition of normally and mine obviously differ, and herein lies
the problem: Perhaps you read Usenet groups once or twice throughout the
day, and can digest large portions of threads. For me, the opposite is
true -- I don't spend a lot of time reading threads, but rather I spend
a bit of time here and there, many times per day (at home and at work).

When Usenet ran on DECwriters or ADM-3A's, and mail took 2 days to appear on
a server, yes. In those days you needed every message to really be a
complete thread, in order, because you weren't going to be able to see the
rest of the thread.

This is not necessarily the case though. There were threaded news
readers back before we had Windows.

A large number of people are reading, and they don't all have the same
preference.

I'm not sure what you believe this has to do with my point. What is
written here is a complete given. It is also irrelevant to what I said,
since I was talking about a situation where someone actually asked.

Chris.

 

[Chris Shepherd]

Oh, html-standards are so prio 1 when learning C#
Now you are just grasping for air.

This is quite possibly the most nonsensical and (apologies to the rest
of the group) idiotic criticism leveled at another poster I have seen
written in this group to date. It tells me rather clearly that you have
very little, if any, experience in developing enterprise-level web
applications.

Chris.

 

[Michael A. Covington]

Michael A. Covington wrote:

Your definition of normally and mine obviously differ, and herein lies the
problem: Perhaps you read Usenet groups once or twice throughout the day,
and can digest large portions of threads. For me, the opposite is true --
I don't spend a lot of time reading threads, but rather I spend a bit of
time here and there, many times per day (at home and at work).

Exactly -- that is why the pro-top-posting and anti-top-posting crowds are
deadlocked.

 

[Michael Starberg]

This is quite possibly the most nonsensical and (apologies to the rest of
the group) idiotic criticism leveled at another poster I have seen written
in this group to date. It tells me rather clearly that you have very
little, if any, experience in developing enterprise-level web
applications.

Chris.

If you are 'developing enterprise-level web applications',
I say html standards are important. Actually, it is a job.

html/css is not only a job, it's an art.

But if you just want to learn C# a la web,
html is not prio 1.

I hope you find that more sensical.

- Michael Starberg

 

[Michael Starberg]

Cor,

I didn't respond to your post.

If you post to a usenet group, you implicity did.

I didn't address your advice.

If you post to a usenet group, you'll get it anyway.

I was responding to Alan T.

I was responding to the advice provided by Michael A Starberg (to learn
both simultaneously).

By telling me, my advice suck. That sure will help Alan.

None of that had anything to do with you or your post.

-S

If you can't take a comment, why post?

- Michael Starberg

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Thank you very much the advices you all guys have given.
First of all, some threads discussed about my top-post, yes, this is my
habit as a result of my using Outlook Express as newsreader, that's the
default. I only use bottom-post when there are more than 1 previous
material
to refer.

I forgot to mention in my original message, I have been programming C#
using
VS 2005 for 6 months, but really have not much knowledge about the CSS,
session, web security (although several years ago I worked with web
project
using Javascript and HTML).

I agree I should start with Windows application but not sure WHEN I should
start learning ASP .NET?

Why not do them both on the fly?

Can I just buy a book like Beginning ASP.NET with C# that go forward
without
through understanding of Javascript, CSS, HTMl, XHTML, sessions,
Ajax.....etc.

I recommend the MS MCTS training kit books for Web and Windows desktop
development. Forget that the books are for certification. The books will
give you a solid foundation by going through the basics. Basically, the
books give you the basics.

I also recommend that you look at the Design Patterns Bootcamp: Model View
Patterns Show with code examples. Pictures and presentations and code by
Polymorphicpodcast can help you out of the gate as well. You can also look
at some of the other shows as too.
http://www.polymorphicpodcast.com/

 

[Alan T]

Hi,

I am just thinking I am confused.
Although I have been programmin for several years in Delphi, however, the
advices given in this thread made me thinking of we need to prepare
ourselves not only ASP.NET, but also Windows app.

For ASP.NET, you need to know CSS, HTML (DHTML, XHTMl,...), XML, sessions,
cookies, Javascripts...etc.

Now if I start Windows app first, some may say you need to understand OOP.
On the top of that, you need to know API, Windows messaging,
database,...etc. So it seems you need to study the database, API... before
knowing C#.

Remember the days when I was working as trainee programming using Delphi
grabbed the book talking about Delphi, it also talked about OOP, Windows
controls (editbox, listbox, grid), database, API...etc.

So just wonder if I start the same way in learning ASP.NET in C#?

 

[Smithers]

RE:

Now if I start Windows app first, some may say you need to understand OOP.
On the top of that, you need to know API, Windows messaging,
database,...etc. So it seems you need to study the database, API... before
knowing C#.

OOP - you can "get away" without really know it. I"ve seen lots of VB6ers
writing "glorified scripts" in C#.
Separately, OOP is relevant to all kinds of applications. You seem to think
that OOP is relevant to Windows apps and not to ASP.NET apps. That's simply
incorrect.

API - you don't need to know that for a Windows forms app. Whatever benefit
might be gained from knowing how to call the windows API from a desktop app
could just as easily be realized or relevant to an ASP.NET app. Again, you
seem to think that API stuff is not relevant to ASP.NET - that's also not
true.

Windows messaging (same as above)...

Database... same as above. It's hard to imagine a non trivial ASP.NET Web
site that doesn't make use of some database.

If we revisit your original inquiry - you say you want to learn C#. What
most of the rational feedback you have received is telling you is more or
less: "learn Windows Forms app - because you'll be able to more easily focus
on the language itself - without also having to deal with CSS, HTML,
JavaScript, ViewState, etc. Those things are *required* with an ASP.NET app,
whereas the other stuff you listed (OOP, API, etc) is equally relevant to
both Windows and Web apps.

-HTH

S

 

[Michael Starberg]

Hi,

I am just thinking I am confused.

Don't be.

If you already know Delphi,
You will find .NET easy to learn.

Also, WinForms is a rip-off the Borland VCL.
This is not a blunt statement, but the truth.
Microsoft licenced most of Borlands patents,
so they could do a 'improvement' of the VCL.

This is why I suggest you should learn ASP.NET aswell,
because you don't need to learn so much about html and stuff,
just drag and drop components on a WebForm.

And in aspnet, if you add a singleton class to your project,
- Welcome to the world of threading!

My whole point was that you should do the same task,
in different way.

So up the ante - Do a tic-tac-toe in WinForms, WebForms, Java and C++
That will teach you programming, and what is just perks and flaws in each
world.

Or, just do it in WinForms, but in your head, learn how it would look like
in all 'em languages.

As for starters, maybe you should do a simple program using WinForm and
Delpihi and compare the two.

- Michael Starberg