Why Pentium?

[Jure Sah]

John Doe pravi:

I knew this troll was going to have a tough time with my simple
correction.

What exactly makes me a troll here?

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[Jure Sah]

kony pravi:

Nonsense.

They may be sub-optimal, but we're not doing one hardcoded
task on a PC, the versatility is important too. Unsuitable
in this context would not apply as they certainly can and do
get the job done.

You might want to read up on the fact that 9600 baud on computers is no
longer 9600 baud and not only in multitasking systems. It has to do with
the point that all modern OS's CPU time scheduling mechanisms are
incompetent. It's not like 9600 baud is something the hardware could not
manage, it's the point that the software's triggers and events misfire
by design.

Yes they're not "as" efficient as they could be, but that is
the nature of a multipurpose system. It couldn't work any
other way and be versatile enough, and inexpensive enough,
to do so many jobs.

Yes, it could. The theory was tested and the result prooven. Read the
"Sythesis OS" whitepaper for details.

In short, it is possible to make an OS's CPU time scheduler
automatically detect how much CPU time and when a generic program needs
to process it's input signal at the actual data rate.

Sure it will, most programs don't need more than a *normal*
priority level, they can sit in the background. If the
workload is so high that multiple realtime activities can't
be done, this is a case that would be a problem for any type
of hardware design, not just a PC.

Modern computers have more than enough CPU power to provide for all the
needs simultaneously, it's all about the OS not doing things flexibly
enough.

If you want a good example of the catastrophic state that that CPU time
scheduler in Windows is in, use a program that counts how much CPU time
it gets, run only it and Windows, then wiggle your mouse around the
Start button area and see the user program suddenly getting way more CPU
time than before.

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[Jure Sah]

John Doe pravi:

A troll who needs to provide citations instead of babbling.

Citations?

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[Jure Sah]

kony pravi:

Fluid bearing fans are usually very low quality junk.

I second that.

The packaging for fans usually comes with preprinted text in the
following sequence:
[ ] Fluid bearing
[ ] Sleeve bearing
[ ] Ball bearing

....the sequence is always used to indicate worst to best. Fluid bearings
die soon, Sleeve bearings sometimes develop rattling, Ball bearings are
the best choice.

At work, I service very high quality high pressure pumps. They contain
only the best everything and they use double ball bearings everywhere.


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[Jure Sah]

John Doe pravi:

A troll who doesn't know what a fluid dynamic bearing is.

Time to read that wikipedia link you provided, mr. bitchy.

Quote: "Fluid bearings, also called fluid dynamic bearings"

It's a marketing term.

"Fluid dynamic bearing" is in itself just a nonsense
marketing term. They all fall into one of two categories,
ball bearing or sleeve. We can further divide into dual
ball, ball + sleeve, and certain types of sleeve designs but
overall the type of fluid bearings used in PC fans is low
quality rather than the high quality sealed bearings used in
hard drives.

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[George Macdonald]

Fluid bearing fans are usually very low quality junk. A
very few manufacturers make decent ones, like Panasonic,
Papst, Comair, a few Sunons and Deltas are passible.

Any serious design needing longest fan life uses dual ball
bearing fans if at all possible. Intel's fans are this, but
intel spec'd for a particularly small center hub and to
achieve that the bearings themselves were downsized from
what the manufacturer normally uses (for better results).

The manufacturer didn't randomly choose larger bearings on a
whim, they knew more about fans than Intel.

Hey Kony, since you seem to know so much about fans... what the hell is the
deal with those chipset coolers that have flakey fans? Some of them spin
at >7Krpm and last 6 months max. Is it even possible to make such small
fans move enough air and still last?

They're usually "buried frame" type and easily replaced but impossible to
find, even from distributors. I've been able to find a 45mm diameter
"bury-frame" fan for my GPU cooler at Directron but the 30mm versions
usually used on chipset coolers are just not available anywhere. Do you
know why? Any ideas on where I might find a "quality" version?... or do
the mfrs prefer to sell with a hunk of metal for the extra $$?

 

[kony]

kony pravi:

You might want to read up on the fact that 9600 baud on computers is no
longer 9600 baud and not only in multitasking systems. It has to do with
the point that all modern OS's CPU time scheduling mechanisms are
incompetent. It's not like 9600 baud is something the hardware could not
manage, it's the point that the software's triggers and events misfire
by design.

It seems you're suggesting computers don't work at all,
since they can and do processes 9600 baud signals as well as
a myrid # of others, given I/O peripherals.

Yes, it could. The theory was tested and the result prooven. Read the
"Sythesis OS" whitepaper for details.

You're out of your mind.
On the one hand you discount the hardware itself, then turn
around and cite OS.

In short, it is possible to make an OS's CPU time scheduler
automatically detect how much CPU time and when a generic program needs
to process it's input signal at the actual data rate.

It seems you are on a quest for a solution without a
problem.

Modern computers have more than enough CPU power to provide for all the
needs simultaneously, it's all about the OS not doing things flexibly
enough.

"All the needs"?
You lack a very basic understanding of the situation. No OS
change makes a CPU, bus, etc, etc, faster than technically
possible. When the needs exceed the bandwidth, processing
ability, etc, there's no OS change that will matter. Trying
to tweak things to get a few percent improvement would
always be a minimal improvement realative to the
generational hardware gains.

If you want a good example of the catastrophic state that that CPU time
scheduler in Windows is in, use a program that counts how much CPU time
it gets, run only it and Windows, then wiggle your mouse around the
Start button area and see the user program suddenly getting way more CPU
time than before.

That's supposed to happen, not a catastrophe but correct
function. You don't WANT something you're NOT doing to take
as much time as something you actively ARE doing, ELSE there
is a provision for that, the higher priority assignment.

 

[Rod Speed]

kony pravi:

Fluid bearing fans are usually very low quality junk.

I second that.

The packaging for fans usually comes with preprinted text in the
following sequence:
[ ] Fluid bearing
[ ] Sleeve bearing
[ ] Ball bearing

...the sequence is always used to indicate worst to best. Fluid
bearings die soon, Sleeve bearings sometimes develop rattling, Ball
bearings are the best choice.

At work, I service very high quality high pressure pumps. They contain
only the best everything and they use double ball bearings everywhere.

Have fun explaining hard drives which dont anymore.

 

[Rod Speed]

John Doe pravi:

What exactly makes me a troll here?

You rub his nose in one of his stupiditys.

 

[John Doe]

Anyone that's had a few years experience dealing with failed
fans.

In other words, you cannot provide a citation.

There is no reputable source to back up your claim. Even
the premium fan manufacturers themselves acknowledge
otherwise

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185006

Sony fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Has a 15,000 our
lifespan.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835186008

Arctic Cooling fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Comes with a
six-year warranty.

Panasonic is a major manufacturer of fluid dynamic bearing fans, for
many years.

so you're either quite ignorant and stupid for
drawing a conclusion while ignorant, or just trolling.

More like teaching you a lesson.

I won't hold my breath waiting for citations you will never provide.

 

[John Doe]

I guess this troll also considers "sleeve bearing" to be
a marketing term.


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Subject: Re: Why Pentium?
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John Doe pravi:

A troll who doesn't know what a fluid dynamic bearing is.

Time to read that wikipedia link you provided, mr. bitchy.

Quote: "Fluid bearings, also called fluid dynamic bearings"

It's a marketing term.

"Fluid dynamic bearing" is in itself just a nonsense
marketing term. They all fall into one of two categories,
ball bearing or sleeve. We can further divide into dual
ball, ball + sleeve, and certain types of sleeve designs but
overall the type of fluid bearings used in PC fans is low
quality rather than the high quality sealed bearings used in
hard drives.

--
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[John Doe]

A troll who doesn't even know what a "citation" is.


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John Doe pravi:

A troll who needs to provide citations instead of babbling.

Citations?

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[John Doe]

kony pravi:

I second that.

That makes two trolls with no citations.

The packaging for fans usually comes with preprinted text in the
following sequence:
[ ] Fluid bearing
[ ] Sleeve bearing
[ ] Ball bearing

Is that supposed to be a citation?

...the sequence is always used to indicate worst to best. Fluid bearings
die soon, Sleeve bearings sometimes develop rattling, Ball bearings are
the best choice.

If you're so sure of yourself, provide a citation.

At work, I service very high quality high pressure pumps. They contain
only the best everything and they use double ball bearings everywhere.

The best hard drives use fluid dynamic bearings.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Sony fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Has a 15,000 our
lifespan.

That's only a little over 18 months.

 

[John Doe]

Sony fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Has a 15,000 our
lifespan.

Sorry, that should read "150,000 hour"

 

[hdrdtd]

A little over 17 years? that should be long enough..

 

[kony]

In other words, you cannot provide a citation.

In other words, it is common knowledge and you can easily
find this yourself via:

Google or any mainstream search service
Usenet search
Any fan manufacturer that makes lifespan projections

There are NO fan manufacturers that claim fluid bearing fans
have longer lifespan and most claim only (roughly) 50% of
the lifespan of dual ball bearings.

Which citation would you prefer? There are SO many, so
let's get your foolish arguments out of the way first so I
can provide the most applicable to dispell your
misunderstanding.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185006

Sony fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Has a 15,000 our
lifespan.

15,000 hour?

While that IS what the product page says, it's funny!

The funny part is you are clueless about fans. If you'd had
a clue, you would have realized that 15,000 hours is an
incredibly LOW lifespan for a fan, that the lifespan
projection for that product was supposed to be 150,000
hours.

They can make this questionable lifespan rating because of
two factors:

1) Assume ideal operating condition. IE- low heat
2) They base it on the low RPM. Usually fan manufacturers
spec a family of fans, including those with much higher RPM,
while the higher RPM fans have a lower actual lifespan than
the lower RPM of the same model. Similarly, any crap fan
can be taken out of context, selectively focusing on the
lowest RPM model and then suggesting a longer lifespan than
it actually has.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835186008

Arctic Cooling fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Comes with a
six-year warranty.

That doesn't mean it has a longer lifespan, it means they've
overpriced it enough to offset any potential RMA issues. Do
you realize just how little a sleeve fan costs in volume?
It is trivial to them to replace it free, the shipping cost
is multiple times as much, but putting interest on their
profit, they can cover that too. Further, six years is
lower than the expected lifespan of a system.

Panasonic is a major manufacturer of fluid dynamic bearing fans, for
many years.

Yes, I'd already mentioned them as an exception. They do
NOT rate their fluid dynamic bearing fans as having a higher
lifespan than their dual ball bearing fans.

BTW, do us all a favor and stop with the nonsense about
"fluid dynamic bearings", as they are SLEEVE BEARINGS and
any other term is a senseless marketing gimmick.

More like teaching you a lesson.

You have enough ego to get your system's cooling into a bind
but nowhere near enough experience to teach.

I won't hold my breath waiting for citations you will never provide.

Don't you mean that you're just ignorant?

Seriously, you started a disagreement about fans yet you
think we need to provide a spec when you could have easily
read it yourself from any of the major manufacturers if you
had ever been to their websites and read the datasheets.

If it were new information, it'd be "news", but the only
thing new is that we became aware how ignorant you are about
fans. Anyone and their brother has known dual ball bearing
fans are at least as long lived, sometimes MUCH longer
lived.

These products you cite haven't even existed long enough for
you to pretend to have any experience with their actual
lifespans. It is impossible for you to have experience with
them, whether their projections actually hold true. So
you're an armchair quarterback who read marketing blurbs,
believed them, and didn't ever bother to test anything
yourself.

 

[kony]

That makes two trolls with no citations.

We aren't burdened with countering anyone's ignorance, it
would never end. This is another example of common
knowledge, that which any competent engineer or system
integrator has know since the beginning and believe me,
they'd love to shave some $ off the costs if there weren't
the detractions, especially when sleeve bearing fans have
significantly lower high pitched noise.

So you can't be bothered to find any information yourself,
only a product listing? Do you believe all product
listings? How about a $15 600W PSU with one of those fluid
dynamic blahblahblah in it, are those good too because they
wrote some lofty specs?

Sorry, there comes a point where you have to have some
experience instead of just repeating marketing by gypsy
companies selling PC parts they dont' even make.

What might we Google for a citation? How about;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ball+bearings+sleeve+bearings

VERY FIRST GOOGLE HIT,
http://www.currentsolutions.com/knowledge/ballbearingvssleevefans.htm
excerpt:

"The chart indicates that when temperatures ranged from 25
to 60 degrees C, ball-bearing fans on average outlasted
sleeve-bearing fans by 50 percent. When temperatures
exceeded 700 degrees C, ball-bearing fans ran for 45,000
hours, while sleeve-bearing fans became inoperable. Yet,
when the ambient temperatures were relatively low,
sleeve-bearing fans lasted as long as ball-bearing fans."

Since any normal system will be in that 25-60C range, we can
conclude this is one citation.

SECOND HIT,
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=193
excerpts;

"Ball bearings... most important for our situation - long
life" "With proper lubrication sleeve bearings will provide
performance and service on par with that of their ball
bearing counterparts. If left alone for a long time, and run
at higher temperatures they will fail before the ball
bearings will."


------------------

So far we have the first two hits Google found. The trend
continues with practically EVERY link that discusses both
types. So it seems it is [entire world] vs [you]

So tell us, is it you [the one who doesn't make fans, hasn't
actually tested the fans you linked for they haven't even
existed as long as their spec'd lifespan, and doesn't even
use proper terms for sleeve bearing fans] that knows about
fans, or it is major website reviewers, fan manufacturers
themselves, engineers, and just about every possible 3rd
party?

Sorry but you are a lone advocate of them for lifespan
improvement and have no evidence besides a line of text
versus 'site after 'site after 'site.

 

[John Doe]

As expected, the troll provides lots of babbling but no citations.


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Subject: Re: Why Pentium?
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In other words, you cannot provide a citation.

In other words, it is common knowledge and you can easily
find this yourself via:

Google or any mainstream search service
Usenet search
Any fan manufacturer that makes lifespan projections

There are NO fan manufacturers that claim fluid bearing fans
have longer lifespan and most claim only (roughly) 50% of
the lifespan of dual ball bearings.

Which citation would you prefer? There are SO many, so
let's get your foolish arguments out of the way first so I
can provide the most applicable to dispell your
misunderstanding.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185006

Sony fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Has a 15,000 our
lifespan.

15,000 hour?

While that IS what the product page says, it's funny!

The funny part is you are clueless about fans. If you'd had
a clue, you would have realized that 15,000 hours is an
incredibly LOW lifespan for a fan, that the lifespan
projection for that product was supposed to be 150,000
hours.

They can make this questionable lifespan rating because of
two factors:

1) Assume ideal operating condition. IE- low heat
2) They base it on the low RPM. Usually fan manufacturers
spec a family of fans, including those with much higher RPM,
while the higher RPM fans have a lower actual lifespan than
the lower RPM of the same model. Similarly, any crap fan
can be taken out of context, selectively focusing on the
lowest RPM model and then suggesting a longer lifespan than
it actually has.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835186008

Arctic Cooling fluid dynamic bearing 120 mm case fan. Comes with a
six-year warranty.

That doesn't mean it has a longer lifespan, it means they've
overpriced it enough to offset any potential RMA issues. Do
you realize just how little a sleeve fan costs in volume?
It is trivial to them to replace it free, the shipping cost
is multiple times as much, but putting interest on their
profit, they can cover that too. Further, six years is
lower than the expected lifespan of a system.

Panasonic is a major manufacturer of fluid dynamic bearing fans, for
many years.

Yes, I'd already mentioned them as an exception. They do
NOT rate their fluid dynamic bearing fans as having a higher
lifespan than their dual ball bearing fans.

BTW, do us all a favor and stop with the nonsense about
"fluid dynamic bearings", as they are SLEEVE BEARINGS and
any other term is a senseless marketing gimmick.

More like teaching you a lesson.

You have enough ego to get your system's cooling into a bind
but nowhere near enough experience to teach.

I won't hold my breath waiting for citations you will never provide.

Don't you mean that you're just ignorant?

Seriously, you started a disagreement about fans yet you
think we need to provide a spec when you could have easily
read it yourself from any of the major manufacturers if you
had ever been to their websites and read the datasheets.

If it were new information, it'd be "news", but the only
thing new is that we became aware how ignorant you are about
fans. Anyone and their brother has known dual ball bearing
fans are at least as long lived, sometimes MUCH longer
lived.

These products you cite haven't even existed long enough for
you to pretend to have any experience with their actual
lifespans. It is impossible for you to have experience with
them, whether their projections actually hold true. So
you're an armchair quarterback who read marketing blurbs,
believed them, and didn't ever bother to test anything
yourself.

 

[John Doe]

This troll apparently really does not know the difference between a
sleeve bearing and a fluid dynamic bearing.


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That makes two trolls with no citations.

We aren't burdened with countering anyone's ignorance, it
would never end. This is another example of common
knowledge, that which any competent engineer or system
integrator has know since the beginning and believe me,
they'd love to shave some $ off the costs if there weren't
the detractions, especially when sleeve bearing fans have
significantly lower high pitched noise.

So you can't be bothered to find any information yourself,
only a product listing? Do you believe all product
listings? How about a $15 600W PSU with one of those fluid
dynamic blahblahblah in it, are those good too because they
wrote some lofty specs?

Sorry, there comes a point where you have to have some
experience instead of just repeating marketing by gypsy
companies selling PC parts they dont' even make.

What might we Google for a citation? How about;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ball+bearings+sleeve+bearings

VERY FIRST GOOGLE HIT,
http://www.currentsolutions.com/knowledge/ballbearingvssleevefans.htm
excerpt:

"The chart indicates that when temperatures ranged from 25
to 60 degrees C, ball-bearing fans on average outlasted
sleeve-bearing fans by 50 percent. When temperatures
exceeded 700 degrees C, ball-bearing fans ran for 45,000
hours, while sleeve-bearing fans became inoperable. Yet,
when the ambient temperatures were relatively low,
sleeve-bearing fans lasted as long as ball-bearing fans."

Since any normal system will be in that 25-60C range, we can
conclude this is one citation.

SECOND HIT,
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=193
excerpts;

"Ball bearings... most important for our situation - long
life" "With proper lubrication sleeve bearings will provide
performance and service on par with that of their ball
bearing counterparts. If left alone for a long time, and run
at higher temperatures they will fail before the ball
bearings will."


------------------

So far we have the first two hits Google found. The trend
continues with practically EVERY link that discusses both
types. So it seems it is [entire world] vs [you]

So tell us, is it you [the one who doesn't make fans, hasn't
actually tested the fans you linked for they haven't even
existed as long as their spec'd lifespan, and doesn't even
use proper terms for sleeve bearing fans] that knows about
fans, or it is major website reviewers, fan manufacturers
themselves, engineers, and just about every possible 3rd
party?

Sorry but you are a lone advocate of them for lifespan
improvement and have no evidence besides a line of text
versus 'site after 'site after 'site.