When some idiot tells you to buy a 500+ W power supply...


J

John Doe

I am not talking to the ignorant ****tard who pretends he (or she)
knows about computers/electronics, I am talking to the dummies who
might follow his advice... Simply ask the ignorant ****tard whether
he has ever actually measured the wattage a typical PC uses. Since he
can buy a wattage meter "Kill-A-Watt" for $20 US, there is no excuse
for any such "technician" to remain ignorant. If you buy a junk power
supply, you might need 500 W, but you are still going to get a junk
power supply that outputs garbage and could trash your system.

Watching a replay of Forged Alliance on a big map Setons Clutch with
eight players with the playback rate set to 10x, the maximum was 195
W. Ordinary usage appears to be less than 120 W. I will probably keep
the meter attached to my PC for more than long enough to tell whether
those numbers will ever be exceeded, and will correct if necessary.

Intel Q9550
GeForce 9800GT
4x1GB DDR2-800
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3L
32GB SSD primary drive
150GB 10kRPM secondary drive
lots of USB devices
 
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S

Steve Stone

John said:
(white noise) .......whether
he has ever actually measured the wattage a typical PC uses. Since he
can buy a wattage meter "Kill-A-Watt" for $20 US, there is no excuse
for any such "technician" to remain ignorant. If you buy a junk power
supply, you might need 500 W, but you are still going to get a junk
power supply that outputs garbage and could trash your system.

Does a power supply that is rated at 500 watts equate to 500 watts input
or 500 watts output?
 
P

Paul

Steve said:
Does a power supply that is rated at 500 watts equate to 500 watts input
or 500 watts output?

That is a rating of its maximum allowed output. Only as much power
as the computer needs at the moment, is drawn from the wall.

If John had a 1000W or a 500W ATX supply, the power meter he is using
would still read and indicate the 120W number. That is all the power
that the computer is using at the moment. Could he use a 120W supply ?
No. Since it is difficult to load the multiple outputs in exactly
the right way, to draw the supply maximum rating number. There will
always be some overcapacity in the supply you buy, if you expect the
computer to keep running.

All the numbers printed on the power supply label mean something, and
you should learn what they all mean, to make a knowledgeable purchase
of a supply. I'm talking about the small table of numbers here, not
all the Chinese characters :)

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/17-151-080-S10?$S640W$

Paul
 
J

John Doe

VanguardLH said:
You neglected the most important way that you need to measure
power consumption of your host: on startup. There will be a
surge when you startup that you need to handle. It is not so
much the running wattage you need to concerned about.

Some ignorant people just cannot accept science...

Also consider the fact that power supplies run more efficiently
when they are supplying a significant amount of their rated
output. But go ahead and follow the ignorant ****tard's advice and
buy a power supply that is much bigger than you need, at least it
won't hurt anything (except your wallet).
--
 
J

John Doe

Rated wattage means little or nothing by itself. You would be
better off thinking about the brand and reputation of the specific
power supply you have in mind.
That is a rating of its maximum allowed output. Only as much
power as the computer needs at the moment, is drawn from the
wall.

The amount of power that the whole system needs is drawn from the
wall, Paul. That power measurement at the meter includes power
supply inefficiency. The required power supply output is actually
less than that.
If John had a 1000W or a 500W ATX supply, the power meter he is
using would still read and indicate the 120W number. That is all
the power that the computer is using at the moment.

That is all the power that the system is using at the moment,
including the power supply inefficiency. The required power supply
output is actually less than the number measured at the wall,
Paul.
Could he use a 120W supply ?

Of course not, Paul, even if you ignore the "195 W" number I
mentioned.

By the way... It is more like 112 W when doing stuff like writing a USENET post. Still a lot of power for writing a USENET post.
Since it is difficult to load the multiple outputs in exactly
the right way, to draw the supply maximum rating number. There
will always be some overcapacity in the supply you buy

Sure there will be, Paul, but how much?

Of course the ignorant ****tards who spew the "500+ W" power
supply bullshit might not really be ignorant, they might be
selling something...
All the numbers printed on the power supply label mean
something, and you should learn what they all mean, to make a
knowledgeable purchase of a supply.

Yup. That is what I did years ago when purchasing a 380 W Antec
"TruePower 2" that is currently powering my quad-core gaming
system.

Besides looking at power supply labels, you should also consider
using inexpensive and readily available tools like the previously
mentioned meter to get a clue about what your system(s) actually
needs. Heck, the cost of the meter is much less than the
cost difference between a silly and reasonable power supply.
--
 
J

John Doe

Another ignorant ****turd...

Ian D said:
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Subject: Re: When some idiot tells you to buy a 500+ W power supply...
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Aside from the total wattage, the more important PSU rating
to look at is the +12v rails. The highest power consuming
components, the CPU and GPU, run off the +12v rails. PSUs
today have large unnecessary capacity. This is because, as
the major components moved from the +5v and +3.3v rails to
+12v, the +12v capacities were greatly increased, along with
the capabilities of the other rails. The motherboard, HDs, RAM,
fans, peripheral cards, etc., only use a small portion of the
available 5v and 3.3v capacity. The result is that, if you need
350 watts for the +12v components, you end up buying a 600W
PSU because there's also another 250W of capacity for the 5v
and 3.3v rails in the PSU specs. Since you don't want the 12v
rails saturated, you may end up with a 700W PSU safety overhead.
 
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T

ToolPackinMama

Some ignorant people just cannot accept science...

True, but for people like that there is always GOOGLE.

:)

How much power does your PC need, and how can you tell?

http://www.pcpower.com/technology/power_usage/

According to this calculator, I need 463 watts, so my 500 watt PSU seems
about right.

http://www.journeysystems.com/?power_calculator

<< As a case in point, I put a power usage meter between the power
supply and the wall outlet on my computer as a test. During average
computing, my system was pulling no more than 240W of power. This is
well below the rating of my power supply. However, if I then play a 3D
game for several hours, the power usage peaks upwards to around 400W of
total power. Does this mean that a 400W power supply would be
sufficient? Probably not as I have a large number of items that draw
heavily on the 12V rail such that a 400W could have voltage problems. >>

From: http://compreviews.about.com/od/cases/a/PSUWattage.htm

<< First things first: you need to think of your power supply not as a
single unit, but a box that contains multiple, independent power
supplies. That is, if you look at the label on a power supply, you’ll
see that the maximum current is listed independently for +3.3V, +5V, and
+12V. Thought of another way, imagine the total wattage being the power
of the pump at the water reservoir, and that there is a pump for +3.3V
water, +5.5 water, and +12V water.... >>

From: http://www.firingsquad.com/guides/power_supply/page2.asp

Another calculator:

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

More opinions:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/275130-28-wattage-power-need
 
J

John Doe

ToolPackinMama said:
John Doe wrote:

True, but for people like that there is always GOOGLE.

Then apparently that is where you should be.
How much power does your PC need, and how can you tell?

By investing in a $20 US "Kill-A-Watt" or whatever meter of your
choice, and pull your head out of your webpage.
According to this calculator, I need 463 watts, so my 500 watt
PSU seems about right.

You are being misled.
<< As a case in point, I put a power usage meter between the
power supply and the wall outlet on my computer as a test.
During average computing, my system was pulling no more than
240W of power.

As you might have already read, my gaming system pulls
approximately 114 watts during average computing like writing this
message.
This is well below the rating of my power supply. However, if I
then play a 3D game for several hours, the power usage peaks
upwards to around 400W of total power.

The maximum power my gaming system has used is 195 watts.
Does this mean that a 400W power supply would be sufficient?

Probably, since apparently your meter numbers are screwed.
Probably not as I have a large number of items that draw heavily
on the 12V rail such that a 400W could have voltage problems. >>

Apparently that jackass is just ignorant or does not consider his
readership intelligent enough to be informed that his measurement
is actually higher than the power supply output required, since
you need are put in between the wall outlet and the PC power
supply measures total system power including power supply in
efficiency. Power supply inefficiency is not part of power supply
output ratings. The difference is not huge, but it is significant
if you want to make an intelligent power supply choice.

Again... The maximum reading at the wall is actually greater than
the required power supply output.
<< First things first: you need to think of your power supply
not as a single unit, but a box that contains multiple,
independent power supplies. That is, if you look at the label on
a power supply, you'll see that the maximum current is listed
independently for +3.3V, +5V, and +12V. Thought of another way,
imagine the total wattage being the power of the pump at the
water reservoir, and that there is a pump for +3.3V water, +5.5
water, and +12V water.... >>

Right... And I told you that the maximum total system power
measured at the wall here thus far is 195 watts. That means the
actual power supply output, perfectly distributed, would be less
than 195 watts. Still, you and other ignorant ****turds have a
harebrained idea that a typical gaming system (if not all systems)
should have at least a 500 watt power supply output.

Granted that the various voltage outputs are not perfectly
distributed for every system, but take a look at the example Paul
cited. One of the two 12 V outputs supplies 204 watts. Now open
your mind and listen very closely... My total system power
measured at the wall while gaming is 195 watts. That measurement
is actually larger than the required power supply output because
it includes power supply inefficiency (power the power supply is
wasting). That measurement includes all of the voltages my
computer uses. So OBVIOUSLY that 500 watt power supply is way
bigger than what I need since one of two 12 V outputs supplies
more power than my entire system uses while gaming.

Let me know if you have a problem understanding that.

Take a look around on the Internet and you will see plenty of
similar power usage examples. Online calculators are for dummies
and ignorant (or scheming) ****turds who sell oversized power
supplies to dummies. If you have an Intel CPU that has a maximum
package dissipation rating of 95 watts, you should know that is a
hugely exaggerated wattage rating. Just because the package can
dissipate that much power does not mean the circuit will ever use
that much power, otherwise you would not have many different CPUs
in the same package.

You are welcome in advance for the enlightenment...
--
 
J

John Doe

metspitzer said:
It is both. Power input = Power output

Says a liberal who plays the lottery to win?
Apparently you learned math and electronics from a politician...
--
 
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J

John Doe

Amazing how many ignorant ****turds there are who know nothing
about electronics but are bold enough to pretend that they know
much about computer systems.
 
J

John Doe

An electrical circuit wastes some electricity. I think the exact
amount of power that a power supply wastes is reflected in its
efficiency rating. If that number is 75%, the amount of power
output is probably 75% of the amount of power input.
 
M

metspitzer

An electrical circuit wastes some electricity. I think the exact
amount of power that a power supply wastes is reflected in its
efficiency rating. If that number is 75%, the amount of power
output is probably 75% of the amount of power input.

I bet my estimate of PF=1 is closer than your estimate of PF=.75
 
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J

John Doe

And yet another ignorant ****turd...

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Subject: Re: When some idiot tells you to buy a 500+ W power supply...
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I bet my estimate of PF=1 is closer than your estimate of PF=.75
 
T

ToolPackinMama

An electrical circuit wastes some electricity. I think the exact
amount of power that a power supply wastes is reflected in its
efficiency rating. If that number is 75%, the amount of power
output is probably 75% of the amount of power input.

Hey John, I just want to say "good for you" about posting something
conversational that is non-abusive!

EXCELSIOR!
 
J

John Doe

ToolPackinMama said:
Hey John, I just want to say "good for you" about posting something
conversational that is non-abusive!

And after that he went back to playing games...
 
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