What's in your music?

Quadophile

Quadophile

Hon. Acoustical Engineer
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[font=Arial, Helvetica]The Hz's and the dB's of Real Music![/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Audible frequency range of musical instruments and the human voice. [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]These for obvious reasons are acoustic instruments and unamplified. The frequency refers to fundamental tones only. To give an extreme example a massive church bell such as 'Big Ben' will produce low frequencies you can feel in your gut and yet the harmonics will go way beyond the range of human hearing. [/font]

Instrument Frequency range Hz

Piano (concert) 27.50 - 4,186.00
Bass Tuba 43.65 - 349.23
Double Bass 41.20 - 246.94
Cello 65.41 - 987.77
Viola 130.81 -1,174.00
Violin 196.00 - 3,136.00
Clarinet 164.81 - 1,567.00
Flute 261.63 - 3,349.30
French horn 110.00 - 880.00
Trombone 82.41 - 493.88
Trumpet 164.81 - 987.77
Guitar 82.41 - 880.00

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Human voice[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]These are the ranges demanded in classical opera, hence the decimal point accuracy... [/font]

Type of voice Frequency range Hz
Bass 87.31 - 349.23
Baritone 98.00 - 392.00
Tenor 130 - 493.88
Contralto 130.81 - 698.46
Soprano 246.94 - 1,174.70

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Interesting that a sound system will produce almost all the musical fundamentals of an orchestra without bothering the tweeter... thank Heaven for harmonics! [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Sound pressure levels[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]This is a simple scale based on every day observations similar to the beaufort wind scale. Remember that the decibel is a log scale so that a 3dB increase is a doubling of the actual sound energy, 10dB represents a ten fold increase. However to complicate matters the human ear is not linear and perceives a 10 dB increase as a very approximate doubling of volume. [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]

Sound level (dB) approximate observed equivalent.

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]0 Sound proof room, threshold of hearing[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]
10 Rustle of leaves in a breeze.
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]20 Whisper
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]30 Quiet conversation
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]40 Conversation at home
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]50 Typical outside conversation
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]60 Noise in a large shop (no musac ;-))
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]70 City street
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]80 Noisy office with typing (you need to raise your voice)
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]90 Underground railway train passing
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]100 Pneumatic Drill at 3 m
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]110 Prop aircraft taking off
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]120 Jet aircraft taking off - threshold of pain.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Remember that anything over 80 dB can damage hearing over time. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Audible intensity of musical instruments[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]This is a guide to the sort of sound pressure levels acoustic instruments produce unamplified. No distances were given but I'd guess pretty close - a couple of metres perhaps. [/font]

Instrument Range measured in dB
Bass drum 35 - 115
Cymbal 40 - 110
Organ (orchestral) 35 - 110
Piano 60 - 100
Trumpet 55 - 95
Violin 42 - 95

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Surprises? Well I never thought a violin could produce more sound than a subway train, and the Piano seems surprisingly lacking in dynamics. It's also sobering to realise that few hi-fi systems will show the full dynamics of the first four on the list - but would you want to be in the room if they did? [/font]

([font=Arial, Helvetica]Copyright © 1999 (e-mail address removed) - http://www.tnt-audio.com)[/font]
 
Very good!

What level of sound does the human voice produce (dB)? I'm a classical soprano - I'd love to find out how much noise I could make!

:)
 
Quadophile said:
[font=Arial, Helvetica]Remember that anything over 80 dB can damage hearing over time. [/font]
Click to expand...

Hmm. So after thirty years of doing a (mostly rock music) Disco, how are my ears? Pardon? ;)

And I still go to see bands, some of which are very loud indeed. But I can still hear OK. I think.

Interesting stuff Quad, good post :)

Originally posted by Sexay Bexay:

I'd love to find out how much noise I could make!
Click to expand...

When you can shatter a wine glass on the other side of the room, you know you done good ;)
 
floppybootstomp said:
Originally posted by Sexay Bexay
Click to expand...

Was that said in your best Sean Connery accent?! ;)

It would be quite a party trick to be able to shatter wine glasses like that, can't see it happening though!
 
There was an Indian singer long time ago ( early part of the century if I recall) singing classical music who use to do that, its part of history so you should be able to look it up. His name I believe was Tan Sheng (spelling?). I will find out more for you sometime tomorrow.

Flops. you are not alone when you say you were subjected to loud music, me too and I can also hear pretty well at my age. But the fact is that maximum allowable exposure to 80 dB SPL is 8 hours, higher SPL's would require you to have adequate protection.
 
Sexy Bex said:
Was that said in your best Sean Connery accent?! ;)

It would be quite a party trick to be able to shatter wine glasses like that, can't see it happening though!
Click to expand...



i doubt that would be a party trick
cuz if u could break a glass like that
it would really hurt all those that were listening!!!
 
psd99 said:
i doubt that would be a party trick
cuz if u could break a glass like that
it would really hurt all those that were listening!!!
Click to expand...

I suppose people who can do that don't get invited to many parties - it would cost the host too much in glassware!
 
Sexy Bex said:
I suppose people who can do that don't get invited to many parties - it would cost the host too much in glassware!
Click to expand...

hahahahaha

lol yer true

next time i go out and some's singing ill make sure my glass or any glassware is far away as possible!
 
Quadophile said:
[font=Arial, Helvetica]The Hz's and the dB's of Real Music![/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Audible frequency range of musical instruments and the human voice. [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]These for obvious reasons are acoustic instruments and unamplified. The frequency refers to fundamental tones only. To give an extreme example a massive church bell such as 'Big Ben' will produce low frequencies you can feel in your gut and yet the harmonics will go way beyond the range of human hearing. [/font]

Instrument Frequency range Hz

Piano (concert) 27.50 - 4,186.00
Bass Tuba 43.65 - 349.23
Double Bass 41.20 - 246.94
Cello 65.41 - 987.77
Viola 130.81 -1,174.00
Violin 196.00 - 3,136.00
Clarinet 164.81 - 1,567.00
Flute 261.63 - 3,349.30
French horn 110.00 - 880.00
Trombone 82.41 - 493.88
Trumpet 164.81 - 987.77
Guitar 82.41 - 880.00

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Human voice[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]These are the ranges demanded in classical opera, hence the decimal point accuracy... [/font]

Type of voice Frequency range Hz
Bass 87.31 - 349.23
Baritone 98.00 - 392.00
Tenor 130 - 493.88
Contralto 130.81 - 698.46
Soprano 246.94 - 1,174.70

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Interesting that a sound system will produce almost all the musical fundamentals of an orchestra without bothering the tweeter... thank Heaven for harmonics! [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Sound pressure levels[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]This is a simple scale based on every day observations similar to the beaufort wind scale. Remember that the decibel is a log scale so that a 3dB increase is a doubling of the actual sound energy, 10dB represents a ten fold increase. However to complicate matters the human ear is not linear and perceives a 10 dB increase as a very approximate doubling of volume. [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]

Sound level (dB) approximate observed equivalent.

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]0 Sound proof room, threshold of hearing[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]
10 Rustle of leaves in a breeze.
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]20 Whisper
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]30 Quiet conversation
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]40 Conversation at home
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]50 Typical outside conversation
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]60 Noise in a large shop (no musac ;-))
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]70 City street
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]80 Noisy office with typing (you need to raise your voice)
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]90 Underground railway train passing
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]100 Pneumatic Drill at 3 m
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]110 Prop aircraft taking off
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]120 Jet aircraft taking off - threshold of pain.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Remember that anything over 80 dB can damage hearing over time. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Audible intensity of musical instruments[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]This is a guide to the sort of sound pressure levels acoustic instruments produce unamplified. No distances were given but I'd guess pretty close - a couple of metres perhaps. [/font]

Instrument Range measured in dB
Bass drum 35 - 115
Cymbal 40 - 110
Organ (orchestral) 35 - 110
Piano 60 - 100
Trumpet 55 - 95
Violin 42 - 95

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Surprises? Well I never thought a violin could produce more sound than a subway train, and the Piano seems surprisingly lacking in dynamics. It's also sobering to realise that few hi-fi systems will show the full dynamics of the first four on the list - but would you want to be in the room if they did? [/font]

([font=Arial, Helvetica]Copyright © 1999 (e-mail address removed) - http://www.tnt-audio.com)[/font]http://www.tnt-audio.com)/http://www.tnt-audio.com)/
Click to expand...


Food for thought?

The table below shows the noise levels in decibels of typical environmental sounds, and the amount of time it takes for permanent hearing damage to be done at those levels.

Continuous dB Time before hearing is damaged

85 dB 8 hours Busy city traffic
88 dB 4 hours
91 dB 2 hours
94 dB 1 hour
97 dB 30 minutes
100 dB 15 minutes Walkman on standard setting (5)
103 dB 7.5 minutes
106 dB ~ 4min
109 dB ~ 2min
112 dB ~1 min
115 dB ~30 sec Most clubs are louder than this
 
floppybootstomp said:
Hmm. So after thirty years of doing a (mostly rock music) Disco, how are my ears? Pardon? ;)

And I still go to see bands, some of which are very loud indeed. But I can still hear OK. I think.
Click to expand...

Hearing damage is very insidious and takes place over a considerable length of time. It may be several years before you begin to notice any difference in your hearing.

My father worked (during WW2) in a very noisy environment, for several years. He started to go deaf in his 60's and (with the help of Southampton University) was able to prove that his working environment had caused his deafness.

It is a well known fact that many people who worked in noisy discos etc., during the 50's and 60's, are now starting to have problems with their hearing.
 
cguil_uk said:
Hearing damage is very insidious and takes place over a considerable length of time. It may be several years before you begin to notice any difference in your hearing.

My father worked (during WW2) in a very noisy environment, for several years. He started to go deaf in his 60's and (with the help of Southampton University) was able to prove that his working environment had caused his deafness.

It is a well known fact that many people who worked in noisy discos etc., during the 50's and 60's, are now starting to have problems with their hearing.
Click to expand...

See - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4077533.stm
 
Deafness

cguil_uk is quite right about noise induced deafness creeping up slowly over the years. I know because I do offshore medicals for the oil industry and see many people who have worked in noisy conditions (and some who have listened to loud music for years). The hearing loss is PERMANENT and never improves.It is important to keep well away from loud noise otherwise your hearing will deteriorate even more!!

You could always have an Audiogram performed which gives some idea of the extent of hearing loss (but no cure). My customers have an Audiogram every 2 years so that we can determine whether things are getting worse. If the hearing deteriorates badly they will fail the medical and be forcibly removed from the noise at work. They can, of course, continue to listen to loud music and eventually become almost totally deaf - it's their choice.

It's no fun being dependent on a hearing aid.
 
nivrip said:
cguil_uk is quite right about noise induced deafness creeping up slowly over the years. I know because I do offshore medicals for the oil industry and see many people who have worked in noisy conditions (and some who have listened to loud music for years). The hearing loss is PERMANENT and never improves.It is important to keep well away from loud noise otherwise your hearing will deteriorate even more!!

You could always have an Audiogram performed which gives some idea of the extent of hearing loss (but no cure). My customers have an Audiogram every 2 years so that we can determine whether things are getting worse. If the hearing deteriorates badly they will fail the medical and be forcibly removed from the noise at work. They can, of course, continue to listen to loud music and eventually become almost totally deaf - it's their choice.

It's no fun being dependent on a hearing aid.
Click to expand...

In a way, I am lucky because I was born partially deaf and have worn a hearing aid all my life from the age of 5. This means that I am used to it and know no different. Having worked within the deaf community for over 20 years, I do know how difficult, isolating and lonely it is for someone who goes deaf later in life (my dad found it difficult when it happened to him).



Deafness is one of the worst disabilities you can have because, unlike many other disabilities, you are cut off and isolated from people. This is why Deafness is unique and different from any other disability you can name. Because of the isolation (and prejudice) that deaf people have had to endure, they have banded together for mutual support. As a result, deafness is the only disability on the planet that has its own language and culture.
 
cguil_uk said:
Food for thought?

The table below shows the noise levels in decibels of typical environmental sounds, and the amount of time it takes for permanent hearing damage to be done at those levels.

Continuous dB Time before hearing is damaged

85 dB 8 hours Busy city traffic
88 dB 4 hours
91 dB 2 hours
94 dB 1 hour
97 dB 30 minutes
100 dB 15 minutes Walkman on standard setting (5)
103 dB 7.5 minutes
106 dB ~ 4min
109 dB ~ 2min
112 dB ~1 min
115 dB ~30 sec Most clubs are louder than this
Click to expand...

yes you are def spot on with your last line there mate, most clubs do exceed acceptable noise levels on a regular basis, in australia we have some ridiculous laws regarding SPL (sound pressure level) and as such a lot of whining and griping on the club and music venue scene. most venues now are required to have spl meters hooked up to the house PA/system that will disable the system once the 105dBSPL limit is reached. HOWEVER, its not hard for the owner/licencee/in house engineer to disable these meters. but the laws are only enforced spradically and it seems that most of the checking is done on certain genres ie: heavy metal,hard rock, jazz,some dance and surprise surprise classical (where there are large amounts of dynamic range shifting in an enclosed area) in regards to orchestral gigs, well who wants to hear a 24 piece playing in a pub? or even in a non acoustically treated venue (large ampitheatres etc) so while certain genres get harrassed (jazz especially) the doof doofers can have their auditory canals massacred for 8 hrs+ while dancing around pilling off their heads and the hosts of such events not have to worry at all. double standards abound!

as for most people, well we have all been on a train/bus/plane/tram etc and heard that guy/girls ipod/mp3 player sending unbelievable amounts of noise your way, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE HEADPHONES/PLUGS IN! these people have no idea how much damage they are doing to their hearing, although people that listen to MP3`s have no idea how much they are missing out on. pahh mp3`s, the bane of proper music appreciation. as my lecturer constantly reminds us, mp3`s are the common thing for common people, if you appreciate SOUND then you wil never EVER listen to mp3 formatted music. WHY? well im sure that quadophile will agree that when you compress audio to a certain point <+.5>thats right HALF the amount of dynamic range in the actual recording/rendering is lost, in fact the amount in DR is reduced by a massive percentile while the dBSPL retains its integrity. which really doesnt concern most people today, all they want to hear is a fricken kick drum booming and a droning bass line compressed beyond belief with occasional twitters and squeaks interspersed with some hack wailing/rapping over the top. that aint music. its just dumbed down noise for a dumbed down culture.

as for hearing damage, yes its not noticable immediately, unless you stand next to a fighter jet engine at full thrust for a minute, but over time, IF you appreciate sound your ability to filter out high freq. sound and differentiate certain freqs will diminish to a point where you may as well just listen to jay-z and timberland full time.

for those that want to know, the ringing in your ears that you get from sustained auditory stimulation is not,contrary to popular belief, the brains loss ability to hear certain frequencies but the little hairs inside your auditory canal losing their will to stand straight due to the combination of pressure and vibration stimuli ie: they lay down, after time passes they will eventually regain their upright nature and the ringing will dissipate.

anyway im rambling and getting off topic so i`ll leave it at that, comments are welcomed, especially from the more knowledgeable amongst us.

oh i should mention ive been in the audio game for about ten years, a guitarist and percussionist , a classical music lover and currently studying to FINALLY get a degree that says i am an audio engineer at SAE sydney, yes you can do it well but unless you **** * *** ***** the big mobs wont take you on unless you have that bit of paper, even if you do have glowing references. so i am looking forward to completing my masters at middlesex in a few years and then working for Tom Meisner in some capacity <dreaming haha>

happy new year
 
Last edited:
MTP:

Had to edit your post, this is a family forum and we don't want youngsters asking awkward questions of their parents ;)

My hearing is actually quite good, considering, though the chemotherapy lopped off the higher frequency detection a little.

mp3's are actually quite ok for the over-40's as everybody's hearing drops off with age, regardless of one's physical well-being.

It also depends at what bitrate the audio conversion takes place and the quality of the original recording.

I like music, I like Hi-Fi, I like live bands.

To me nothing still sounds as good as vinyl on a decent turntable through a valve setup - audiophile nirvana to me :)

Having said that, my I-Pod through my Cambridge Azure 640A and a pair of lowly Kef Crestas on stands sounds great to me.

I install audio systems for a living but mostly 100V line public address systems in large buildings, so not really hi fi.

In my younger years I've toured with bands and mixed their sound for them, really quite enjoyed that and was quite good at it too, even if I do say so meself, lol.

Anyhoo, what was I saying? hee hee ;)
 
Hehe yes i do apologise for my lack of discression there Floppy, my bad!

as for conversion and bit rate mehhhh, i still dont believe that you can get an absolute positive conversion, even if the original was recorded on the best akg/shure name your brand @ 96khz/24bit and you the compression at the the best possible bit rate. like you i believe most of the best stuff can be heard on vinyl through a good solid state sytem, although some of the new digital receivers are doing the job just as well.

my personal studio amp is a yamaha p5000s coupled to a mackie eq rack mount then through the pro tools mixer and out of yamah hs 80`s for audio recording but for the stereo i just have a low range yamaha htr 4750 with cambridge audio surround. they work. haha its good to see that cambridge audio systems get around. quality there for sure.

and now im rambling haha so i will leave it at that, again my apologies for the lack of couthness <is that a word LOL>

MTP
 
MTP,

That was a good post! We should consider ourselves as part of endangered species :)

You me and Flops need not argue about the merits of Vinyl, it is by far the best when it comes to reproduction. Of course there are many factors which ultimately make up a good sound but. I had experimented with comparison of vinyl to CD many times and it was vinyl which always beat the CD in terms of quality.

Alas we are in an age where folks give more importance to convenience rather than quality. Majority of the listeners find CD very convenient and opted for that. That is why I say we are endangered species.

The simple truth is that whenever I listen to MP3 I tend to reach out for the volume control to turn it down rather than up. With Vinyl it was always the other way around.

Today folks listen to music on the go, unlike us who prefer to listen to music in a proper environment (living room setup).

When I moved to the US two years ago I had to give up my system completely and now the only piece of kit that I have to get by is the Sennheiser HD600 headphone with the Headroom headphone amplifier with the DA converter and about 50 CD,s from the 1000 that I had to give up along with 400 vinyl albums (I retained and have just 6 now).

Someday I may get back on track.
nod.gif
 
Always find Quad's threads good to read.
nod.gif

Just converting Vinyl to MP3 at the moment.:thumb:
 
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