Whats a good image management app?

I

Industrial One

What's a good program that can do operations including compression on multiple images? I just noticed my new camera folder album exceeded 2GB, which is ridiculous. I've noticed the given resolution of taking a picture with every digital camera is always twice the real resolution less. It's so obviously blurry it looks upscaled. Same thing with 1080p Blu-rays, they all lookupscaled 720p. Pure waste of bandwidth and storage.

So is there a program that can resize all my images to 50% and then apply compression, preferably the compression being customizable. I always go with95 for photos I need perfect and 80 for the rest.
 
C

Char Jackson

What's a good program that can do operations including compression on multiple images?

There are tons. I suggest Irfanview. Photoshop also works well, but
not many people have it. Photoshop Elements is a very good program
that doesn't get mentioned very often.
I just noticed my new camera folder album exceeded 2GB, which is ridiculous. I've noticed the given resolution of taking a picture with every digital camera is always twice the real resolution less.

I haven't seen a digital camera where the resolution (and inversely
the file size) hasn't been adjustable. Sounds like you may need to
visit the camera's menu system and play with the options.
It's so obviously blurry it looks upscaled.

Make sure you're not using digital zoom. Other than that, make sure
the lens is clean. Digital cameras made in the last 5-10 years should
have no problem creating very clear images.
Same thing with 1080p Blu-rays, they all look upscaled 720p. Pure waste of bandwidth and storage.

You have something wrong with your display device, your playback
device, or your source material. You didn't provide enough information
to be able to narrow it down any further.
So is there a program that can resize all my images to 50% and then apply compression, preferably the compression being customizable. I always go with 95 for photos I need perfect and 80 for the rest.

Yep, see above. There are many.
 
I

Industrial One

>What's a good program that can do operations including compression on multiple images?

There are tons. I suggest Irfanview. Photoshop also works well, but
not many people have it. Photoshop Elements is a very good program
that doesn't get mentioned very often.

I have Photoshop CS6 tho I'm a newb to PS, I got it recently. Its quality selector is non-standard, its from 1-12 while the standard is 1-100.
>I just noticed my new camera folder album exceeded 2GB, which is ridiculous. I've noticed the given resolution of taking a picture with every digital camera is always twice the real resolution less.

I haven't seen a digital camera where the resolution (and inversely
the file size) hasn't been adjustable. Sounds like you may need to
visit the camera's menu system and play with the options.

You totally missed the point. Yes, the resolution is adjustable and I naturally select the maximum the camera allows, but it ends up looking so obviously blurry and upscaled that it may as well not exist, and the makers of these shit cams oughta be sued for false advertising. Why did I pay $90 for this hunk of junk when its only capable of half the megapixels it advertises?

The file size is adjustable too, the problem is the camera's compression algorithm sucks ass and it requires nearly the same filesize no matter the content. Lots of my pics are indoors with a solid white wall and its maybe 100-200 KB smaller than the more complex photos.
>It's so obviously blurry it looks upscaled.

Make sure you're not using digital zoom. Other than that, make sure
the lens is clean. Digital cameras made in the last 5-10 years should
have no problem creating very clear images.

I've made sure of both. The max selected resolution is still fake.
>Same thing with 1080p Blu-rays, they all look upscaled 720p. Pure waste of bandwidth and storage.

You have something wrong with your display device, your playback
device, or your source material. You didn't provide enough information
to be able to narrow it down any further.

No sir, it is quite common for idiot entrepreneurs to exaggerate and push the limits of technologies to give as low possible quality at the highest possible resolution. A blu-ray resized to 720x576 looks way better than a DVDof the same resolution. In fact, I've found most DVDs real level of detailto be around 360p, not 480-576p.

Nothing's wrong with any of my equipment, what's wrong is that ****heads are trying to sell the public garbage and get rich. A rather common practice in America.

Here's a screenshot straight from the Blu-ray, does this look 1080p to you?
http://i45.tinypic.com/2dsgvwi.jpg

The level of detail in that particular scene is not even 720p! Obviously upscaled.
 
C

Char Jackson

You totally missed the point. Yes, the resolution is adjustable and I naturally select the maximum the camera allows, but it ends up looking so obviously blurry and upscaled that it may as well not exist, and the makers of these shit cams oughta be sued for false advertising. Why did I pay $90 for this hunk of junk when its only capable of half the megapixels it advertises?

The file size is adjustable too, the problem is the camera's compression algorithm sucks ass and it requires nearly the same filesize no matter the content. Lots of my pics are indoors with a solid white wall and its maybe 100-200 KB smaller than the more complex photos.

If you say your unspecified digital camera is a steaming pile of crap,
I won't argue. All I can offer is to do more homework next time. Check
specs, check user reviews, and take advantage of return policies if it
doesn't work as advertised. My digital cameras don't produce blurry
photos in general, although they tend to struggle a bit in extremely
low light conditions. I'm aware of that, though, and it isn't a
problem for me.
Here's a screenshot straight from the Blu-ray, does this look 1080p to you?
http://i45.tinypic.com/2dsgvwi.jpg

The level of detail in that particular scene is not even 720p! Obviously upscaled.

With zero knowledge of the source or any of the equipment involved in
playback, I can't begin to hazard a guess.
 
I

Industrial One

>You totally missed the point. Yes, the resolution is adjustable and Inaturally select the maximum the camera allows, but it ends up looking so obviously blurry and upscaled that it may as well not exist, and the makersof these shit cams oughta be sued for false advertising. Why did I pay $90for this hunk of junk when its only capable of half the megapixels it advertises?
>
>The file size is adjustable too, the problem is the camera's compression algorithm sucks ass and it requires nearly the same filesize no matter the content. Lots of my pics are indoors with a solid white wall and its maybe 100-200 KB smaller than the more complex photos.

If you say your unspecified digital camera is a steaming pile of crap,
I won't argue. All I can offer is to do more homework next time. Check
specs, check user reviews, and take advantage of return policies if it
doesn't work as advertised. My digital cameras don't produce blurry
photos in general, although they tend to struggle a bit in extremely
low light conditions. I'm aware of that, though, and it isn't a
problem for me.

>Here's a screenshot straight from the Blu-ray, does this look 1080p to you?
>http://i45.tinypic.com/2dsgvwi.jpg
>
>The level of detail in that particular scene is not even 720p! Obviously upscaled.

With zero knowledge of the source or any of the equipment involved in
playback, I can't begin to hazard a guess.

This has happened on 3 cameras I bought in a row.

The equipment you speak of is a built-in blu-ray drive in my computer and decoded by FFDShow. But I really don't see the relevance. This is digital. It either works or doesn't. The only artifacts that do exist from improper decoding are corrupted frames, wild colors you normally need to drop acid tosee or slight brightness/contrast offsets. Blurriness is never a digital media artifact.

Btw, I welcome you to give me any screenshot straight from a Blu-ray with true 1080p detail. That would be a sight to see.
 
C

Char Jackson

Btw, I welcome you to give me any screenshot straight from a Blu-ray with true 1080p detail. That would be a sight to see.

The term "1080p" doesn't infer any specific level of detail or picture
quality. It can be the blurriest picture you've ever seen and still be
displayed at 1080p.
 
P

Paul

Industrial said:
This has happened on 3 cameras I bought in a row.

The equipment you speak of is a built-in blu-ray drive in my computer and decoded by FFDShow. But I really don't see the relevance. This is digital. It either works or doesn't. The only artifacts that do exist from improper decoding are corrupted frames, wild colors you normally need to drop acid to see or slight brightness/contrast offsets. Blurriness is never a digital media artifact.

Btw, I welcome you to give me any screenshot straight from a Blu-ray with true 1080p detail. That would be a sight to see.

Well, now you're mixing topics.

Video is a different animal than still camera shots. Video does
both spatial and temporal compression (for video formats that
involve compression). If you shoot video of a perfectly still scene,
then the I-frame collected should be reasonably equivalent to a
still camera picture. If there is motion in a picture, any
particular frame selected from the video, may not look
very good as a "still".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_compression_picture_types

As for your camera, and the lies they wrote on the side of the
box. I'll give an example. My webcam is 1280x1024 native format.
Yet, it promises to shoot 5 megapixel pictures for stills. When
in fact, I know I've got all the detail it has to offer, if
I shoot in the max "native" resolution. That's what you want
to do with your camera, is use the native value. Not any value
which requires interpolation to make any in-between pixels to
pad out the image.

Some cheap cameras, only record in compressed formats such as JPEG.
They do this, because the built-in flash chip is so small, and they
want to be able to claim the ability to store a large number of
photos. Whereas the users, would want the image to be recorded
at native resolution, in an uncompressed format (BMP or some particular
TIFF format). Some camera users will select RAW as a format, but
this has implications for aspects other than just the number of
pixels.

As for compression methods, there are "lossy" and "lossless" methods.
If you have an 8 bit photo, you can use GIF as a "lossless" compression
format. No information should be lost with a lossless compressor, but
the level of compression to expect is relatively low (maybe 3:1 to
just make up a value). Things like JPEG, on the other hand, have a
"quality" factor, which goes hand in hand with compression ratio.
I could probably get a 100:1 compression ratio with JPEG, but the
resulting image would only be fit for the Trash Can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jpeg

"Sample photographs" [ three quarters of the way down the web page ]

Some cameras, will "soften" the image before storage, and this may be
an attempt at noise reduction. You can "sharpen" the image with
Photoshop or equivalent, to get back some of the detail. Oversharpening,
is a form of digital mutilation, so don't "turn the knob too far".
After a few trials, you'll get some idea what looks natural, and
what looks like "too much".

If shooting stills, with a camera with excessively noisy sensor, and
the scene is *perfectly still*, you can shoot two photos, one after the
other, with exactly the same lighting, then use Photoshop arithmetic
operation to compute (A+B)/2 or the "average" of the two images. This
helps reduce the noise to some extent, but without degrading the image.
But it only works for things like indoor scenes, where everything
in the scene is under your control. I used that technique, when
preparing photos for a "how-to" manual for something constructed
indoors. Every shot, consisted of two pictures, with the pictures
averaged together to get rid of camera sensor noise. It's what you
get, from a $100 camera. Even with halogen lighting of the scene,
there's still sensor noise present. Better quality sensors, make
that less evident (until it gets a lot darker).

HTH,
Paul
 
K

Ken Springer

Hi, Bill,

But is that really so bad? I think it greatly depends on the compression
used. Who wants to deal with such a huge file as BMP in the first place?
Or raw video, for that matter (instead of compact MP4 video!).

It all depends on what you want to do with the photo. If you're just
going to print the photo on your inkjet, or send to Walgreens or
similar, the JPG will be just fine.

But, if you're a professional photographer, the Ansel Adams level, a
compressed format is the last thing you want.

It's somewhat analogous to the music you hear from a record or tape
(JPG) or a CD/DVD (TIFF, RAW, BMP).

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 14.0.1
Thunderbird 14.0
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2
 
C

Char Jackson

I think we all know what IOne means, however.

Of course we know what he meant. I was just pointing out that he was
operating under a false assumption.
 
K

Ken Springer

Oh. Ok, good to know.
Hopefully the P&S ones can save in JPEG for stills, and MP4 for videos,
although I'm guessing that the latter (video) may still be using the old AVI
format (which is a pretty old format nowadays), in most instances. I
haven't checked into it, because I'm not really in the market, but it's just
interesting to be aware of these things. :)

Some point and shoot cameras save in Quicktime format. Mine does, and
it actually takes better photos than my brother-in-law's dSLR. He's not
happy about that. <grin>

But to be fair, his dSLR is a couple years older than my P&S, and I
don't know the specs of his camera.

You are correct on the blowing up of the print. The lossless formats
allow you to blow the photo up larger than the compressed formats. But
with the options in my P&S camera, the one "blow up" I've ever done (not
a photo buff, it was an experiment) came out fine with no artifacts. 8 X 10

The problem I run into is I take most photos in 16:9 aspect ratio, hard
to find a place that will print that ratio. Walgreens doesn't. :)


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 14.0.1
Thunderbird 14.0
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2
 
G

glee

Ken Springer said:
Hi, Bill,

snip
It's somewhat analogous to the music you hear from a record or tape
(JPG) or a CD/DVD (TIFF, RAW, BMP).

That looks backwards to me... the vinyl record or tape would be
analogous to RAW or BMP, the CD analogous to JPG.
 
K

Ken Springer

That looks backwards to me... the vinyl record or tape would be
analogous to RAW or BMP, the CD analogous to JPG.

CD/DVD's have much more dynamic range and sound data than any record or
tape. Just listen and compare.

RAW, BMP, TIFF have far more pixel data than any compressed format like
JPG. Just take a RAW photo, then create a JPG file version. Now, start
enlarging each type of file, and see which file format is the first to
pixelate.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 14.0.1
Thunderbird 14.0
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2
 
P

Paul

J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
As for compression methods, there are "lossy" and "lossless" methods.
If you have an 8 bit photo, you can use GIF as a "lossless" compression
format. No information should be lost with a lossless compressor, but
the level of compression to expect is relatively low (maybe 3:1 to
just make up a value). Things like JPEG, on the other hand, have a
[]
Though "8 bit" is not actually wrong, in that GIF can use 8 (or, I
think, 4 or 1) bits per pixel, I don't _think_ the colours have to be
8 bit colours: GIF selects a palette of 256 (or 16 or 2) colours, and
records which one each pixel in the image is - but I think the colours
can be 24 bit. For example, a picture of a sunset might have 256 shades
of yellow orange and red), but each one can be store to finer detail.[/QUOTE]

I wanted a quick example of an image format with lossless compression.
Something I could contrast to JPEG. I wasn't trying to dwell on the
fact that GIF uses a palette, whereas some other formats, don't
(for practical reasons).

GIF has a palette of 256 colors. Your eight bit value, selects one
of those colors from the table. (That's called "Indexed" as another name.)
Now, if you convert the GIF to JPEG, then later, use a tool to count the
number of colors in the JPEG image, the tool will tell you "hundred of thousands",
and the reason for that, is rounding errors in the color space. Using a
quantizer, you can convert the JPEG non-palette based image, back to GIF
with its closest palette. The process should work pretty well in this
case, because we know the GIF could only have 256 colors to begin with.
So converting back to GIF shouldn't hurt the color table too much.
If you take an arbitrary photo and convert to some smaller palette,
then a lot of damage will occur (GIF is poor for photos, good for "cartoons").
One of the reasons I use GIF in my imageshack postings, is because
most of the things I post are screenshots of the desktop (which
don't have a lot of random pixels present, like a photo would -
Windows desktop screenshots are closer to "cartoons").

The point here, is JPEG is capable of great compression, but with
the side effects of its "loss" being felt in more than one dimension.
The pictures on that web page, of JPEG quality versus compression
ratio, was intended to show the consequences of a camera making
"quality decisions" for you, when storing your photos. The picture
is ruined, even before you get to work on it (soft, and compressed,
and with color rounding errors). And some people like it that way.

People who seek RAW from their camera, are trying to avoid the
compression part of that story. RAW is not immediately useful,
because its, well, a little too raw. Usually the camera software
has some kind of utility for making the RAW captures useful. I
don't have a camera like that, so can't provide examples. RAW
would not be BMP for example. RAW is closer to coming straight
from the sensor (like perhaps, a Bayer pattern), and the
camera utility software does whatever is necessary to make
the image useful again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter

"Different algorithms requiring various amounts of computing power
result in varying-quality final images. This can be done in-camera,
producing a JPEG or TIFF image, or outside the camera using the
raw data directly from the sensor."

Paul
 
G

glee

Bill in Co said:
That's true.
IIRC, it's theoretically 96 db for CDs (16 bit limits), but perhaps
more like 90 db or so in practice. Which is a very good dynamic
range. (Not quite equal to the human ear's dynamic range, but it's
getting there).

For a LP record, you're talking about only 60 db or so. A 60 db
dynamic range isn't terrible, but it ain't spectacularly great,
either, that's for sure. You can hear the hiss in the background of
a record, even on a high quality LP.

Tape is normally better than records, and even more so using tricks
such as Dolby, but even at that, CD's still have a greater dynamic
range. (But let's not talk about cassette tapes here; I'm talking
about open reel to reel, running at 15 IPS, or more. :)

And at any rate, raw sound files are normally in the WAV file format.
And can eat up quite a bit of disk space for storage. :)

Theoretically.... but many audiophiles will tell you the sound quality
of an LP is superior to a CD, regardless of those "numbers".
 
P

Paul

Bill said:
Paul said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
[]
As for compression methods, there are "lossy" and "lossless" methods.
If you have an 8 bit photo, you can use GIF as a "lossless" compression
format. No information should be lost with a lossless compressor, but
the level of compression to expect is relatively low (maybe 3:1 to
just make up a value). Things like JPEG, on the other hand, have a
[]
Though "8 bit" is not actually wrong, in that GIF can use 8 (or, I
think, 4 or 1) bits per pixel, I don't _think_ the colours have to be
8 bit colours: GIF selects a palette of 256 (or 16 or 2) colours, and
records which one each pixel in the image is - but I think the colours
can be 24 bit. For example, a picture of a sunset might have 256 shades
of yellow orange and red), but each one can be store to finer detail.
I wanted a quick example of an image format with lossless compression.
Something I could contrast to JPEG. I wasn't trying to dwell on the
fact that GIF uses a palette, whereas some other formats, don't
(for practical reasons).

GIF has a palette of 256 colors. Your eight bit value, selects one
of those colors from the table. (That's called "Indexed" as another name.)
Now, if you convert the GIF to JPEG, then later, use a tool to count the
number of colors in the JPEG image, the tool will tell you "hundred of
thousands", and the reason for that, is rounding errors in the color
space.
Using a quantizer, you can convert the JPEG non-palette based image, back
to GIF with its closest palette. The process should work pretty well in
this
case, because we know the GIF could only have 256 colors to begin with.
So converting back to GIF shouldn't hurt the color table too much.
If you take an arbitrary photo and convert to some smaller palette,
then a lot of damage will occur (GIF is poor for photos, good for
"cartoons").
One of the reasons I use GIF in my imageshack postings, is because
most of the things I post are screenshots of the desktop (which
don't have a lot of random pixels present, like a photo would -
Windows desktop screenshots are closer to "cartoons").

The point here, is JPEG is capable of great compression, but with
the side effects of its "loss" being felt in more than one dimension.
The pictures on that web page, of JPEG quality versus compression
ratio, was intended to show the consequences of a camera making
"quality decisions" for you, when storing your photos. The picture
is ruined, even before you get to work on it (soft, and compressed,
and with color rounding errors). And some people like it that way.

Well, I think the term "ruined" is a little harsh here :) (unless you're
a purist)
Even the 23:1 was pretty good, IMHO. :) And what a consequent savings in
disk space! (If that's too much compression, maybe 10:1 would be better
(and more akin to MP3 audio files, by the way).

I trust you also listen to MP3 files? Do you consider them "ruined"? :)

I guess I'm one of those who just doesn't like the cost/benefit ratio of
dealing with BMP files. :) I like JPEGS, precisely because they can
have some compression and can still be quite good (if not unduly
compressed), and don't take up the whole hard drive, or (if too large)
forever to load in a photo app program. :) Ditto on MP3 files! :)

Compression is a necessary evil, not something to aspire to.

Some content, handles it better than others.

When I convert a VCR tape to digital form, that's an over 100GB file
when I use my WinTV capture card. The VCR is old, and has a bit of head
roll along the bottom edge of the image. Now, when I convert that to a
~7GB DVD version, there's little loss, because the source wasn't very
clean to begin with. I can live with tossing the 100GB file, as there
is little chance of improving the quality of the 7GB output version.

Other kinds of media, don't take as well to compression.
So if I collected such things (which I don't), then it would
depend a lot on the value of the material as to whether my
sole copy would be a compressed one or not. With the VCR case,
I can simply run the VCR again, if I wanted another copy. For
as long as the VCR continues to work, and there's something
still on tape worth converting.

CDs aren't compressed (they're PCM), so you get whatever the
original source allows in terms of quality, up to the Nyquist
limit for the CD sampling rate. If you collect older music, which
was recorded on old tape equipment, the CD may not be at fault
in terms of the material. Newer studio material, wouldn't have
the problem of some old tape deck in the way.

If I had a choice between the CD original, and some second-gen MP3,
I think you know which one I'd keep.

Paul
 
K

Ken Springer

And at any rate, raw sound files are normally in the WAV file format.

We don't want to confuse some who may be reading this thread, Bill, so...

RAW format for digital photos and a raw format for audio being WAV are
two totally different things.

And, IIRC, the only difference between a RAW digital photo and a TIFF
file is the TIFF file header info has been prefixed to the RAW data.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 14.0.1
Thunderbird 14.0
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2
 
K

Ken Springer

Theoretically.... but many audiophiles will tell you the sound quality
of an LP is superior to a CD, regardless of those "numbers".

Now your starting to get into the subjective area of audio, those with
the "golden ears".

When digital audio came out, there were, and presumably are, those who
could claim to be able to hear the difference in sound produced by
digital units and vacuum tube units. There must be at least some
perceived difference, and there are still high end vacuum tube units.

IIRC there were tests done that did show a difference on test equipment,
but I could never hear it, and I have a mix of both, although quite old
equipment these days.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 14.0.1
Thunderbird 14.0
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2
 
I

Industrial One

I found a batch plugin for GIMP and it worked perfectly. On a quality setting of 90 and resizing by half, I have reduced the 2 GB to 200 MB.

Thanks for all the other suggestions though, I'll keep 'em in mind. ThumbsPlus was pretty good but it lacked the option to use Floating point instead of integer for the encoding.

On another note, JPEG-XR BLOWS. Same quality at the same filesize my ass, it was worse quality at the SAME size.

For the subthread:

1. I'm aware 1080p is just a resolution. You're juggling semantics and red herrings here, my friend. You remind me of American nationalists claiming in glee what a free country they have and then later give asinine lecture like a wise-ass how freedom doesn't guarantee happiness the next time some serious incident ****s the credibility of their shitty, oppressive, malfunctioning country up.

Resolution MUST guarantee detail or there's nothing except a waste of bandwidth for the increase in resolution.

2. Conversion of analog audio to digital ALWAYS introduces quality loss, but is really damn hard to discern and anyone who can can't coherently explain what the difference is. It's like seeing living a life of darkness and this year seeing a flicker of bright white light for 1/500th of a second every couple seconds. You can't see it, but things feel different. You KNOW something is weird.

Either way, the sum is zero in the end. Vinyl media decays slowly and gradually the artifacts of damage arrive. Digital media retains perfect integrity for a short while but when it DOES decay, the data is utterly shit-cannedforever without warning.

The faith in digital media is almost religious, the belief that it's "magic" somehow. People forget ones and zeroes are physical material that decay like anything else. Nothing abstract about this shit.

3. Please call don't call video "MP4". MP4 is an audio format, the successor to MP3, usually called for unfathomable reasons "AAC." MP4 video should've been called "MPG4" but the cock-filled wonders of the dipshits working atMPEG/ISO have no ****ing sense of consistency whatsoever, almost as if to purposely make discerning these containers and formats as confusing as possible.

To make shit worse, Blu-ray does not even utilize the MP4 container but "M2TS" or "DGA" and the basement-dwelling idiot fanboy communities pioneered acompletely non hardware-compliant, practically identical-to-MP4 container called "MKV" to popularity.

Make. Up. Your. ****ing. Minds. Retards.

So if possible, refer to modern digital video as "MKV" since that's the most popular media container today.

4. 7GB? You can do way better than that, Paul. A VHS video can be compressed to 350 MB with very high quality depending on the length. Most 720p Blu-ray rips can fit under 4.7 gigs with perfect quality.
 
I

Industrial One

That ear test program sucks. Why does it only go to 16 KHZ and doesn't give an option to sound on BOTH channels? For those of us with headphones, it is really unpleasant and annoying to only hear from one speaker.

Also, there's a click sound before the samples so this destroys the objectiveness of the test altogether.

If I were you, I'd generate a sine sweep from 0 to 22.05 kHz and make it exactly 22.05 seconds long. Open it in an audio player and pause when you stop being able to hear.

If you guys can't hear past 12 kHz then you must be really ****ing old. I can hear to 16.5-17.
 

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