what to buy: 8800GT or HD3870 or 9600GT ?

[Sleepy]

So, I decided to buy a new videocard. Presently, I have an nVidia
7600GT. It plays a lot, if not most of the games of the past 2 years
at the settings close to maximum. But I wanted to be able to play
Crysis and the like.

I was thinking about nVidia 8800GT. However, its length is 23 cm, and
the available space in my PC case is 22 cm. So, no 8800GT... maybe,
the Gigabyte version with the Zalman cooler and the non-reference PCB
which is 21 cm long.

The alternative is ATI HD3870. "Triplex" from Taiwan released the 3870
card with a non-reference PCB which has a length of 19 cm, and thus
will fit my case. Those cards were sold exclusively in China, but
started to pop up in the USA, Australia and Germany as seen on eBay.

I was contemplating by such a card from eBay, but the price in here is
still high (~ US$250) even inspite the advertised decrease of the
price of the card by AMD from US$250 to $190.

This decrease was inspired by the announcement of 9600GT by nVidia. It
perfroms almost as good as HD3870, but costs $170. I think I like the
idea of 9600GT more... but this card is long ! -- I cannot fit it into
my case -- it is as long as the reference 8800GT.

I did an extensive reading on the INternet, and it came out why the
performance of 9600GT is as good as that of HD3870 even if it has a
less powerful hardware. The first reason is that nVidia optimised
their hardware for fps performance in gaming. Secondly, the RV670 chip
in HD3870 has a flaw: it has a software implementation of anti-
aliasing (which I need for SH4) instead of hardware one. Moreover, the
AA is via the so-called "tent" function, which just averages over the
neighborhood, and thus makes the sharp details look muddy. You do not
always need that ! What's more (and very serious), nVidia seems to
come up often with the updated drivers for the latest games; ATI is
not doing it, and it is not known whether they will provide such a
support after being acquised by AMD.

In short, I could wait for half a year more, and probably buy an
HD3870 for $160-190. Or, I could wait the same half a year, and
possibly buy 9600GT for $150-170 (and a new case, or wait for a
shorter non-reference PCB design ?). Or, I could buy right now the
grey-import HD3870 (from China tailored for the Chinese market with
the Chinese quality) for $260. What do you think guys ?

Short answer is - it depends on your budget - either the 9600GT or the
8800GT if you
can afford it. Take into account a 8800GT will need a more powerful PSU and
I'm guessing
with a 7600GT you havent got a really beefy PSU.

Avoid *Triplex* if you can - I tried their X1950Pro last year and 2 cards
were both faulty due to inadequate cooling.
They're a cheap brand and you get what you pay for.

I since got a 3850 and although its a decent performer the fan doesnt run
quick enough and the card runs at 90c or higher
when gaming. This is a common problem among 3850/3870 cards and if you're
unlucky enough to get a bad one it'll need a
bios update - or 3rd party fan - or running Rivatuner to force a higher fan
speed.

I've got a AMD X2 CPU and the HD3850 (so Im no nvidia fanboy) but Im
thinking hard about ditching the 3850 for a 9600GT.

 

[CJM]

Who's the bigger "fanboy", the fanboy or the fanboy who shouts "**Fanboy
Alert**" first?

How am I a fanboy? I have professed no bias to *any* manufacturer, therefore
if I am a fanboy, I am a closet fanboy.

This guy *is* a fanboy because he is using a subjective (and dare I say,
bollocks) argument to compare to two systems which aren't really comparable.
His 'I believe' and 'my 2 cents' quotes demonstrate that this is merely
opinion, and the lack of any indication why ATI's technology is better than
Nvidia's demonstrates that it is an unsubstantive opinion at that.


As another poster has pointed out, colour palettes can be configured to
taste in a number of different ways. In addition, colour perception is more
than likely dictated by monitor settings anyway. As for crispness, would
have I thought that Nvidia (currently) superior AA technology would have had
a massive say on that argument.

Besides, if he genuinely rates ATI so highly, why does he have an 8800GTS?

There is rarely much of a difference between the latest ATI technology and
the latest Nvidia technology. One company leads the way for a while then the
other takes over. The more noticable differences are framerate and price.
Currently, Nvidia wins on both.

Had he compared an 9600 with an FX5700 and I would have had some sympathy.

For all anyone (including you) knows, he is speaking from pure experience
and has no brand bias.

If he spoke from any kind of experience, perhaps he wouldn't be labelled a
fanboy. But to claim ATI is better than Nvidia because he likes the colour
palette of his 5 year old R9600 compared to his 1yr old 8800GTS is pure
folly; if he's not a fanboy then he's a fool.

 

[GMAN]

**Fanboy Alert** - Ignore

Agreed, the OP never bothered to adjust the Digital Vibrance or sharpness
controls on his Nvidia card i would guess.

 

[Sleepy]

Sooo... does 3870 provide better image quality ? In any of the
departments ? (I read numerous articles on the Internet where it was
shown with arguments that ATI 2XXX/3XXX has a better image quality
than 8800GT and its ilk, and other articles which dismissed it with
believable arguments, too.

My 7600GT + LG194WT combo provides severe banding/dithering/
posterisation, like the one mentioned in
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=35500
. I thought going to the ATI camp (3870) will inmprove the quality of
image, that is the banding problem will disappear (or, at least, will
be seriously mitigated).

Image quality has always been ATI's strong point - Nvidia cards tend to
produce darker more heavily saturated images
whereas ATI cards show a cleaner, more subtle grading of light to dark. The
quality is evident in desktop, web browsing
and games etc .... but is subtle enough that many people won't care just as
most people can't tell the difference between onboard
sound and a half decent plug-in card.

I've had a ATI 9100, GeForce4ti, ATI 9700, GeForce 6600GT,
GeForce 7900GS, ATI X800XL, GeForce 8600GT, ATI X1950pro and ATI 3850 so Im
not a fanboy of either ATI or Nvidia

 

[Mr.E Solved!]

Sooo... does 3870 provide better image quality ? In any of the
departments ? (I read numerous articles on the Internet where it was
shown with arguments that ATI 2XXX/3XXX has a better image quality
than 8800GT and its ilk, and other articles which dismissed it with
believable arguments, too.

Link(s)?

 

[flightlessvacuum]

I've got a AMD X2 CPU and the HD3850 (so Im no nvidia fanboy) but Im
thinking hard about ditching the 3850 for a 9600GT.

Spring for an 8800GT Sleepy!

 

[Tony DiMarzio]

But to claim ATI is better than Nvidia because he likes the colour palette
of his 5 year old R9600 compared to his 1yr old 8800GTS is pure folly; if
he's not a fanboy then he's a fool.

.... now that I could not argue with

Tony

 

[noman]

I was thinking about nVidia 8800GT. However, its length is 23 cm, and
the available space in my PC case is 22 cm. So, no 8800GT... maybe,
the Gigabyte version with the Zalman cooler and the non-reference PCB
which is 21 cm long.

If card length was not an issue, then 8800GT-512 would be the obvious
recommendation. It's the fastest of the three cards. It can be found
for $200 at few online retailers in US.

Between HD3870 and 9600GT, you can pick any card and will be pleased.
So get whichever card fits your case.

Secondly, the RV670 chip
in HD3870 has a flaw: it has a software implementation of anti-
aliasing (which I need for SH4) instead of hardware one.

There is no flaw in RV6x0 series regarding AA. It definitely doesn't
use software (i-e CPU) for anti-aliasing.

Moreover, the
AA is via the so-called "tent" function, which just averages over the
neighborhood, and thus makes the sharp details look muddy.

That's not true either. The tent filter is one of the "optional" CFAA
settings. You can use regular multi-sample AA modes if you don't like
the CFAA ones.

You do not
always need that ! What's more (and very serious), nVidia seems to
come up often with the updated drivers for the latest games; ATI is
not doing it, and it is not known whether they will provide such a
support after being acquised by AMD.

ATI has monthly official WHQL certified driver releases. They also
release non-WHQL hotfixes for individual games if there's a need.

In short, I could wait for half a year more, and probably buy an
HD3870 for $160-190. Or, I could wait the same half a year, and
possibly buy 9600GT for $150-170 (and a new case, or wait for a
shorter non-reference PCB design ?). Or, I could buy right now the
grey-import HD3870 (from China tailored for the Chinese market with
the Chinese quality) for $260.

I won't spend $260 on HD3870. But if you can get it under $200 and it
fits your case, definitely get it. You won't be disappointed with any
one of the three cards.

 

[Beladi Nasrallah]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

 

[Sleepy]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

anything that physically changes the card like that will invalidate the
guarantee.

frankly if your case is that tight then you are likely to suffer from
overheating as there
won't be adequate airflow - a standard ATX case should be a comfortable fit
for a 8800GT
- even one where the heatsink sticks up a little like that.

 

[Paul]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

The heatpipe contains fluid. Sometimes it is only a few drops of fluid,
so may not be evident if you open the copper tube with a hacksaw. Once
the fluid escapes, the heatpipe is 100x less effective than before,
meaning it cannot carry much heat at all. The vaporizing and
condensing stages of fluid travel in the pipe, is the process
that "transports" heat from source to destination. Without
the vapor, the thin-wall copper tubing itself, is virtually
useless at carrying heat.

Modifying the tubes is not recommended.

Heatpipes will occasionally fail on their own (develop a pinhole
leak), which is why, for cooling devices, you want designs with
more than one pipe. The extra pipes provide some redundancy to the
design, so there is still some cooling effect, if one pipe fails.

Heatpipes may even be under partial vacuum. The fluid chosen has a
"normal" boiling point, at atmospheric pressure. If the manufacturer
wants to shift the boiling point slightly, they can use a partial
vacuum in the pipe, applied when it is sealed. That will reduce the
boiling point. Alternatively, they can use a different fluid (water
or alcohol etc).

Heatpipes also have a power limit, to their effective range. If
too much heat is applied to the pipe, then fluid never condenses
at the "cold" end of the pipe, and the transport process is broken.
So the size of pipe, the fluid used, are all critical to making the
pipe work.

There was at least one CPU cooler, where the heatpipes were "dead",
implying the manufacturer had still not perfected the sealing process.
So if you ever run into a CPU or GPU cooler, that isn't working well,
it can be caused by a manufacturing defect in the pipes.

Paul

 

[CJM]

As Paul has already pointed out, a heatpipe contains liquid/gas and possibly
a vacuum.

You are totally screwed if you puncture the heatpipes....

 

[Mr.E Solved!]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

lol, you and the vinegar-bowl lady need to write a book on the world's
worst PC technical advice.

Please, if you do decide to take some shears and cut into a heat pipe,
post the video for posterity. Did you see how many views the vids of the
sods smashing their brand new PS3's received? You could do similarly well.

I had to go back and read you submissions to the group Beladi, from your
disappointment in not getting a 1650WS LCD (but hey the 7600GT to run it
made you happy as it was from *China*), and your irrational expectation
in getting a 8800GTX for $200:

"In 1 year, I will be able to buy 8800GTX for $200... which sells now
for $800, so that I will be able to play the latest games. Thanks to
the new 9-series." -Beladi

Oh poots that prediction did not come true, eh? Here's another Beladi gem:

"No surprise, you do not have access to inbetween your wife's legs. You
are after the altar boys ! And she does not like it..."

I bet you're a hoot at the punch bowl with your heat pipe shears and
salty ways.

 

[Shawk]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

You really need a new case. Not only for future upgrades but for
airflow. Today's PC parts do not seem to be getting cooler
unfortunately and this is an issue that will probably get worse for you.

 

[John Lewis]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

Get rid of the tail that wags the dog. NOW !!

John Lewis

 

[JLC]

OK, so I went into the local discount store, and saw "GIGABYTE 8800GT
TurboForce Model GV-NX88T512HP" as is described at
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read_pf.php?cID=1233 .

It is short (7.4" according to the website above) just like I wanted
it. However, the card I saw in the stor had two "spikes" which were
the terminated ends of the heat pipe. They are protruding 7 mm outside
the printed circuit board. This won't fit my case, or will fir barely.
I am thinking to buy this card anyway, and cut off the protruding ends
of the heat pipe. The heat pipe can be made of the whole copper tube
which then will present no problem. Or, it could be a tube filled with
liquid... in this case, I will just squeeze the copper pipe 7 mm away
from its end. Will this work (I never worked with heat pipes) ?

What I don't understand about this card is that even thought it's core is
clocked at 700 which is the same as the card I have(one of the cards in the
review the XFX 8000GT XXX), yet it scored lower in EVERY test. The only
thing that is much better is the temps, and with that huge HSF I would hope
so! Yet the card still gets a glowing review. Strange.
As to the OP and his case situation, you really need to bite the bullet and
buy a $40 full size case.
It's not that hard to move the parts from one case to the other, or find a
friend or someone to do it for you. These cards need a lot of air around
them, and this card you're looking at is tiny, yet you still need to cut the
thing?! I looked all the picture and I don't see any pipes sticking out.
Just the ones that loop toward the back of the card which shouldn't cause
you any problems.
Can't you just order the card that is in the link you provided? JLC

 

[GreatArtist]

In short, I could wait for half a year more, and probably buy an
HD3870 for $160-190. Or, I could wait the same half a year, and
possibly buy 9600GT for $150-170 (and a new case, or wait for a
shorter non-reference PCB design ?). Or, I could buy right now the
grey-import HD3870 (from China tailored for the Chinese market with
the Chinese quality) for $260.

I worked hard on my online business so I wouldn't have to agonize over
stuff like this anymore. I bought an EVGA GeForce 8800 GTX for $400
recently, which cost the same as my entire xbox 360.

What do you think guys ?

I think you should work on increasing your income like I do, so you
can have a great new computer and be happy. Read "Maximum Achievement"
by Brian Tracy. It will teach you everything you need to know about
making more money. I read and listen to his materials nearly every
day. It's like my religion. I live by his advice. I'm going to be a
multi-millionaire within the next few years. That might sound hard,
but being deprived of the lifestyle and material things that you want
is a lot harder.

In about a year from now, I plan on buying two of whatever is the
fastest graphics card, like the new geforce 9800 (which isn't out
yet), and use them in SLI mode. I'm also going to buy whatever is the
fastest CPU, even if it costs $1,000. I'm going to max out everything.

 

[Larry Roberts]

I worked hard on my online business so I wouldn't have to agonize over
stuff like this anymore. I bought an EVGA GeForce 8800 GTX for $400
recently, which cost the same as my entire xbox 360.


I think you should work on increasing your income like I do, so you
can have a great new computer and be happy. Read "Maximum Achievement"
by Brian Tracy. It will teach you everything you need to know about
making more money. I read and listen to his materials nearly every
day. It's like my religion. I live by his advice. I'm going to be a
multi-millionaire within the next few years. That might sound hard,
but being deprived of the lifestyle and material things that you want
is a lot harder.

In about a year from now, I plan on buying two of whatever is the
fastest graphics card, like the new geforce 9800 (which isn't out
yet), and use them in SLI mode. I'm also going to buy whatever is the
fastest CPU, even if it costs $1,000. I'm going to max out everything.

Let me guess. You make a living selling Brian Tracey's
learning materials to people so they can sell it to others, and the
profits just trickle down.

 

[Beladi Nasrallah]

 As to the OP and his case situation, you really need to bite the bulletand
buy a $40 full size case.

Thanks everyone for comments. When I had this computer built for me, I
chose the case which I liked. It was compact. And it costed less than
$50. Here where I live, I went to the local discount store. I
discovered the cases of a comparable build quality would cost in
excess of $100. And I could not even find them. I did not like any of
the presented ones.

Then I thought what kind of games I would like to play. Those were the
games released in the past 1-1.5 years; for example I just ordered
STALKER. For those games, my rig (AMD X2 3600+ and 7600GT) provides
top performance. And I am interested in no games which would be
released in the next 6 months. It appears I have no need to upgrade my
video card ! Perhaps I should wait a year when the likes of 8800GT
will become a norm requirement for a game.

 

[CJM]

[snipped all the alpha-male, Gordon Gecko lunch-is-for-wimps crap]

Oh dear!

And how much money will you need to buy a life?