Web Browsers

[Larry]

I'm using FP 2002 to design a small site and am wondering how it will be
viewed, primarily by the various Netscape browsers. I'm sure it will look OK
in any recent IE browser and since the site will not likely be viewed by
anyone outside the US, I'm not really concerned about Opera, Mozilla etc.

I am not going to try to design for NN 4.0 but will be using a FP Theme with
..css. Is it possible to say what version of NN will allow my site to look
good, or at least OK? Thanks, this has been worring me for some time now.

 

[Jack Brewster]

I'm using FP 2002 to design a small site and am wondering how it will be
viewed, primarily by the various Netscape browsers. I'm sure it will look OK
in any recent IE browser and since the site will not likely be viewed by
anyone outside the US, I'm not really concerned about Opera, Mozilla etc.

I am not going to try to design for NN 4.0 but will be using a FP Theme with
.css. Is it possible to say what version of NN will allow my site to look
good, or at least OK? Thanks, this has been worring me for some time now.

Larry,

It's really impossible to guess what your site will look like. Your best
bet would be to download and install the browsers you're worried about and
test it for yourself.

Opera and Mozilla have HUGE user bases all over the world, including the US.
You shouldn't discount these browsers out of hand.

Here's a Netscape Browser Archive with links to the different versions,
including 4x of Netscape:
http://sillydog.org/narchive/

Good luck!

 

[Jack Brewster]

Larry,

Since you're using a theme-based CSS file, you are more restricted than if
you were to 'roll your own'. Here's a page with a list of NS4 issues
relating to CSS. It may help give you an idea of what to look out for.
http://www.mako4css.com/Issues.htm

Another really good site, however it can be a bit technical:
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs.html

This site has CSS layouts for Netscape 4. I haven't had a chance to dig
around, but maybe you will find some solutions here:
http://www.saila.com/usage/layouts/nn4-layouts.shtml

One question, does the site already exist, or is it brand new? If it's been
around awhile, take a look at the logs and see what percentage of visitors
are using NS4. It would also be interesting to note how many non-IE
browsers currently visit. It could make you reconsider not worrying about
Opera and Mozilla. Here's a page with links to different free log
analyzers. I think I've used WebLog Expert Lite before (but it's been
awhile and the names all start sounding familiar...):
http://kresch.com/resources/Freeware/Log_Analyzer/

And the Google search I used to find it:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=log+analyzer+freeware

Good luck!

 

[Larry]

Jack, I went to the link you supplied. I was overwhelmed. MS makes this
stuff sound so easy in their marketing material. I have had some experience
with other MS software and so, (with some goading) just sort of volunteered
to do this site for our company. Isn't there some sort of cutoff point for
Netscape? I want to post a message to visitors, similar to what I've seen on
the Net, "This site best viewed with ...." I just need a benchmark. Surely,
there was a version that marked what would be considered an up-to-date or
acceptable browser version for a visitor using Netscape.

 

[Jack Brewster]

Personally, I've got NS 4.08 installed. I expect everything I build to look
like crap in it, though. I don't use any of the built-in themes, shared
borders, etc. on my sites which allows me more control over my pages. The
trade-off is, of course, that I have to do more of the legwork rather than
letting FP do it for me, but I'm okay with that.

The only reason I keep NS 4 is so I can build alternative CSS for it and
make sure that it's at least acceptable. As Jon mentioned earlier, he's on
a campus with a thousand or so NS4 users. The fact is they're out there,
and they will continue to be there until everyone is motivated to get rid of
it. I realize for some institutions, this is harder to accomplish than
others, but that doesn't mean that we still have to develop sites that look
pretty in it. In the case of Universities, I can't understand why they
haven't at least rolled out Mozilla.

The ironic thing is that, the more advanced your CSS is (CSS2, positioning,
all the new stuff) the greater the likelihood that your stylesheet is going
to look really bad in NS4. In this case, it's almost better to give no CSS
at all. Yes, the page won't be attractive, but at least the text will be
readable, the links will work, etc.

NS4 is a real thorn in the side of anyone who is building a web page. Even
the pros (folks who write books, teach, make 'the big bucks' building
commercial sites) are fighting it every day. There isn't a silver bullet.
There is only testing, and acceptable lower standards.

Argh?

 

[Jack Brewster]

Larry,
I use 4.08 and 4.76, for what it's worth
(also NN 6.2 and 7.0; plus Opera 6 and 7, Mozilla, IE 6 and Lynx, a text
browser).

Tom,

Does Opera 7's User Mode | Emulate Text Browser capture the essence of the
Lynx experience? It thought it did so I haven't bothered trying to get a
copy of Lynx.

 

[tbzwebs]

Jack,
It does, but kind of in the way Cheerios emulates oats: allows mouse
navigation--an overwhelming advantage, at least for the sighted--where Lynx
is arrow keys (and perhaps shortcut keys). Opera at least gives you that
'text' look ... but seems to fit ever so much more text on a given area of
screen than the Lynx. If you want me to send a copy to you, let me know.

--
Tom Cox
Editor/Publisher
StickYourNeckOut Magazine

Publish arts and literature free online at: www.stickyourneckout.com/

 

[tbzwebs]

Jack, about midway down the page (link below) I downloaded 2.8.3dev17. The
graphic upper left on this page is a facsimile of the Lynx 'look' to a T.

http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/lynxport.htm

--
Tom Cox
Editor/Publisher
StickYourNeckOut Magazine

Publish arts and literature free online at: www.stickyourneckout.com/

 

[Jack Brewster]

My goodness... That'll take a little learning to get used to.

Thanks for the link.

 

[tbzwebs]

Welcome. FWIW, i haven't configured it as in the readme file and all that.
Just installed and it goes.

--
Tom Cox
Editor/Publisher
StickYourNeckOut Magazine

Publish arts and literature free online at: www.stickyourneckout.com/

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

First what is the purpose of the web site you are building, is to provide
info about your company, get additional business or sell products and
services?

If the purpose is any of the above then you would want to design a site that
looks good and is functionally the same for any visitor to the site. FP
allows you to build site that meet this criteria.

Avoid using CSS layout tags.

Don't use themes with CSS.

Adding "Best View in.." or "Best Viewed at.." is a sign of a lazy
designer/developer, as visitors are not going to switch browsers or
resolution just to view a specific site.

Here is a site I developed with a primary focus on NS4.08. Once you have it
looking and functioning correctly for NS4, then you really don't have to do
much tweaking to have it work well in NS6.21 and IE 4 and up browsers. It
even looks good in NS3.04.
http://www.ourcondo.com

This site is visited by users of NS2,3,4,6 and IE2,3,4,5,6. The number of
users by browser is of no concern as each is a potential client, which is
all the matters.

If you are building a site as a monument to yourself, then by all means, use
all of the latest technology.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Terry Pinnell]

Here's a Netscape Browser Archive with links to the different versions,
including 4x of Netscape:
http://sillydog.org/narchive/

I have NS 4.61 but having read in this thread that 4.08 probably
represents a 'worst case scenario' I tried to find it from the URL
recommended above. Taking the appropriate link to

ftp://archive.netscape.com/archive/communicator/4.08/english/windows/windows95_or_nt/navigator_standalone/n32d408.exe

gave me the familiar 'The page cannot be displayed' message. Anyone
have an alternative please?

 

[Terry Pinnell]

Here is a site I developed with a primary focus on NS4.08. Once you have it
looking and functioning correctly for NS4, then you really don't have to do
much tweaking to have it work well in NS6.21 and IE 4 and up browsers. It
even looks good in NS3.04.
http://www.ourcondo.com

Nice! I'm studying it with a view to learning a bit more about table
layout. Am I right that it includes a few nested as many as 6 levels
down?

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Terry, actually it depends on which page you are looking at, however I don't
think I went pass 3 levels on this site.

Note: This site was originally designed using CSS positioning, but the
designer never tested the site in NS4. I had to remove all of the CSS
positioning elements so that it would look basically the same in NS4, NS6
and IE browsers. 90% of the site's content is dynamically generated from an
Access database, where the client has control over each unit, as well as
some of the text areas on the home page from back-end management
application..

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Cheryl D. Wise]

http://browsers.evolt.org/?navigator/

 

[Terry Pinnell]

http://browsers.evolt.org/?navigator/

Thanks a lot - downloading now.

 

[Terry Pinnell]

Terry, actually it depends on which page you are looking at, however I don't
think I went pass 3 levels on this site.

Note: This site was originally designed using CSS positioning, but the
designer never tested the site in NS4. I had to remove all of the CSS
positioning elements so that it would look basically the same in NS4, NS6
and IE browsers. 90% of the site's content is dynamically generated from an
Access database, where the client has control over each unit, as well as
some of the text areas on the home page from back-end management
application..

As you see in the screenshot at
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/ThomasTables.gif
I added some style sheet entries to show the borders (solid) and cells
(dotted). Seems to show that inner table is 6 floors below ground
level!

 

[Terry Pinnell]

Thanks a lot - downloading now.

Duly installed - then realised I'd downloaded 4.04, not 4.08. Is the
difference significant enough to warrant getting the latter too
please? If 4.04 is close enough to 'worst case', then I won't bother.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

I found NS3.04 (browser only, not Communicator) to be the best of version
3s.
I found NS4.08 (browser only, not Communicator) to be the best of version
4s.

So these are the two old version I decided to keep installed for testing.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

I would expect them to be pretty close but I don't have a version that old
so maybe Thomas or one of the others who keep NN 4.08 on their systems can
tell you.

I'd consider it good enough but I generally test for worse case by diabling
CSS & Javascript to see if the page still renders okay.