water cooling v. fan\heatsink

T

taragem

I've been thinking about getting water cooling for my AMD 4200 X2, but
have been reading reviews that say they're only getting around 3 to 6
degrees lower than with fan\heatsink. My case has 5 80mm fans and one
smaller one (50mm, I think), not counting PS/CPU fans. I live in OR
where it does get hot (90 - 100+) in summer. CPU temp sits around 40C
idle. I'm a casual gamer.

Is water cooling worth the extra $$?
--
Biostar GeForce 6100-M9 939
AMD 4200+ X2
2 gigs Kingston ram
EVGA nVidia 7600GT PCI-E
450W PSU
 
M

Mac Cool

taragem:
Is water cooling worth the extra $$?

Probably not except it should be quieter than all those case fans. I used
to run a water setup and if you do it, cool everything (cpu, video, mb)
with water.
 
T

taragem

Probably not except it should be quieter than all those case fans. I used
to run a water setup and if you do it, cool everything (cpu, video, mb)

Ok, thanks. Next question: I currently have a run-of-the-mill CPU fan/
heatsink (fan is smaller than 80mm). Would you recommend a beefier fan/
heatsink? For example: http://www.directron.com/amdopteronfan.html

Noise isn't a concern, unless it sounds like a buzz saw. I actually
like some fan noise as it acts like white sound and helps me sleep.

However, awhile back I ordered a cooler with a 120mm fan for an AMD 64
3000 and it literally sounded like a buzz saw and didn't make the CPU
run a bit cooler than the thermaltake heatsink with an 80mm fan that
was originally on there. I sent it back. There are so many different
designs I don't know what works and what doesn't.
 
P

Phisherman

I've been thinking about getting water cooling for my AMD 4200 X2, but
have been reading reviews that say they're only getting around 3 to 6
degrees lower than with fan\heatsink. My case has 5 80mm fans and one
smaller one (50mm, I think), not counting PS/CPU fans. I live in OR
where it does get hot (90 - 100+) in summer. CPU temp sits around 40C
idle. I'm a casual gamer.

Is water cooling worth the extra $$?

Water cooling is expensive and a good choice when you need a super
quiet PC. Adding 120mm fans and slowing them down a little will
provide an inexpensive alternative. Think about improving the airflow
inside your PC (tidy wiring, removing dust, adding air vents, etc).
For a few days when the room is warm use a table fan blowing directly
onto the PC.
 
T

taragem

Water cooling is expensive and a good choice when you need a super
quiet PC. Adding 120mm fans and slowing them down a little will
provide an inexpensive alternative. Think about improving the airflow
inside your PC (tidy wiring, removing dust, adding air vents, etc).
For a few days when the room is warm use a table fan blowing directly
onto the PC.

All good tips. I regularly blow the dust out of my computer. A new
case is also a good idea. However, I just spent all my allocated puter
funds on a new mobo, CPU, vid card - so the new case will have to
wait. :p

I wanted to mod my current case by installing another fan on top,
since it appears I have plenty of air coming in, but not enough
exhaust. However, when I discovered buying a power drill and jig to
cut a hole in the case would cost $65 (not to mention removing and
reinstalling the hardware), I could buy a new case for that much.

After posting the question about different fan/heatsinks I figured I
could find out for myself by doing a bit of research. One site I
visited was:http://www.dansdata.com/coolercomp.htm
From there I found out the differences between different brands of fan/
heatsinks isn't really that much and the ones that cool the most are
the heaviest, which makes sense since a heavier heatsink and larger
fan are going to cool more air. But more weight is going to tend to
compromise the integrity of the CPU and the best cooler's weights were
significantly over the 450g max weight recommended by AMD. It appears
it's a situation of damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'm not
inclined to rip my brand new CPU out of the new mobo. In the end, a
stock fan/heatsink is going to do just about a good a job as an after-
market.

As for opening the case and using a table fan, I tried that and the
temps were lower with the case closed. So I guess my case is doing
what is was designed to do: protect and cool the components.
--
Biostar GeForce 6100-M9 939
AMD 4200+ 2.2G X2
EVGA nVidia 7600GT 256MB PCI-e
2 gigs Kingston RAM
450W PSU
 
S

student

All good tips. I regularly blow the dust out of my computer. A new
case is also a good idea. However, I just spent all my allocated puter
funds on a new mobo, CPU, vid card - so the new case will have to
wait. :p

I wanted to mod my current case by installing another fan on top,
since it appears I have plenty of air coming in, but not enough
exhaust. However, when I discovered buying a power drill and jig to
cut a hole in the case would cost $65 (not to mention removing and
reinstalling the hardware), I could buy a new case for that much.

After posting the question about different fan/heatsinks I figured I
could find out for myself by doing a bit of research. One site I
visited was:http://www.dansdata.com/coolercomp.htm

heatsinks isn't really that much and the ones that cool the most are
the heaviest, which makes sense since a heavier heatsink and larger
fan are going to cool more air. But more weight is going to tend to
compromise the integrity of the CPU and the best cooler's weights were
significantly over the 450g max weight recommended by AMD. It appears
it's a situation of damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'm not
inclined to rip my brand new CPU out of the new mobo. In the end, a
stock fan/heatsink is going to do just about a good a job as an after-
market.

As for opening the case and using a table fan, I tried that and the
temps were lower with the case closed. So I guess my case is doing
what is was designed to do: protect and cool the components.
--
Biostar GeForce 6100-M9 939
AMD 4200+ 2.2G X2
EVGA nVidia 7600GT 256MB PCI-e
2 gigs Kingston RAM
450W PSU

The Zalman cnps9700led weighs 764g BUT the weight isn't all on the
my cpu (intel 6550) as the motherboard is mounted vertically in the
case. The weight on the cpu is mainly the pressure of the s clamp
on the cpu, which is definitely unknown.

The Zalman can be used with an AMD cpu but I don't know if the
pressure clamp for the AMD would "weigh" more than the unit itself.
There is some flexibility depending on how the motherboard is mounted
on the case & only you can decide whether a heatsink/fan is
worth it; still a bit of gamble tho.
 
P

peter

I believe in Thermalright.I have them on every system I own.....and yes I am
OC'd
they work....they give you a choice of fans...and they are light compared to
some other models with less cooling capabilities
http://www.thermalright.com/default.htm

You have a look and then do some research from websites that have done
comparative reviews

peter
 
D

David Lalit

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:38:59 -0700, taragem wrote
<snip> buying a power drill and jig to cut a hole in the case would
cost $65 (not to mention removing and reinstalling the hardware)
<snip>

You could rent the tools. Or, even better, borrow them from a
neighbor.

-- David Lalit
 
M

Mac Cool

taragem:
Noise isn't a concern, unless it sounds like a buzz saw. I actually
like some fan noise as it acts like white sound and helps me sleep.

If you like white noise, there is a water set up that will produce both
white noise and cool better than fans or a typical closed water system and
that is an evaporative system. Rather than being enclosed and cycling
through a radiator and fan, you either trickle the water over a waterfall
or mist it through something like a shower head or pipe in which you've
drilled tiny holes. This was the type of system I ran when I did use water
cooling. You need to add swimming pool chemicals to the water to keep it
from getting slimy and a filter helps, but the chemicals are cheap.
Occasionally you will need to add water since the system is evaporative.
If you add a fan to the system, it's possible to cool the water below
ambient room temperature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_tower
 
T

taragem

If you like white noise, there is a water set up that will produce both
white noise and cool better than fans or a typical closed water system and
that is an evaporative system. Rather than being enclosed and cycling
through a radiator and fan, you either trickle the water over a waterfall
or mist it through something like a shower head or pipe in which you've
drilled tiny holes. This was the type of system I ran when I did use water
cooling. You need to add swimming pool chemicals to the water to keep it
from getting slimy and a filter helps, but the chemicals are cheap.
Occasionally you will need to add water since the system is evaporative.
If you add a fan to the system, it's possible to cool the water below
ambient room temperature.

Thanks. Looks like a project I'd like to tackle. :)

Why did you stop using water cooling?
 
M

Mac Cool

taragem:
Thanks. Looks like a project I'd like to tackle. :)

Why did you stop using water cooling?

When it came time to upgrade I was working about 60-70 hours/wk and I
bought a Dell because I didn't have time/desire to tinker anymore, been
using it now for several years. It's time to upgrade again and I have more
free time so I'm going to roll my own this time.
 
O

oldwolf

Thanks. Looks like a project I'd like to tackle. :)
When it came time to upgrade I was working about 60-70 hours/wk and I
bought a Dell because I didn't have time/desire to tinker anymore, been
using it now for several years. It's time to upgrade again and I have more
free time so I'm going to roll my own this time.

Have a look here for a review on the CoolIT freezone, it sounds reasonable,
and easy.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/processor/438/
 
T

taragem

Have a look here for a review on the CoolIT freezone, it sounds reasonable,
and easy.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/processor/438/

Hey, that's cool - no pun intended. :) I think I'll wait until they
get the 'bugs' worked out like the fan, crimped hose (even though the
dude said there was no blockage - I wonder over time if it would get
fatigued?) and make it a little more compact.
 
E

Ed Medlin

taragem said:
Hey, that's cool - no pun intended. :) I think I'll wait until they
get the 'bugs' worked out like the fan, crimped hose (even though the
dude said there was no blockage - I wonder over time if it would get
fatigued?) and make it a little more compact.
I have one of these from Swiftech. A bit pricey, but not so much when you
consider the price of buying the parts seperately. It is very efficient too.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...le-_-Water+Cooling-_-Swiftech+Inc.-_-35108092


Ed
 
R

rickman

Hey, that's cool - no pun intended. :) I think I'll wait until they
get the 'bugs' worked out like the fan, crimped hose (even though the
dude said there was no blockage - I wonder over time if it would get
fatigued?) and make it a little more compact.

Actually, it is *not* very cool, in fact it produces a lot of *extra*
heat from the Peltier cooler. These things work by passing a current
through a type of diode which causes one side of the diode to get hot
and the other to get cold. But the efficiency is very poor. IIRC, it
consumed two times the amount of heat being moved, so if it needs to
pass 50 watts from the CPU, it will draw 100 watts from the PSU and
output 150 watts to the air. In my book, Peltier coolers are only for
very space constrained applications.

I would like to try to build a totally passive water cooled system. I
thought about this a few years back when I built my last couple of
computers, but never finished it. I used a cheap air cooled heatsink
and added plexiglass to enclose it. I got 0.5" fitting mounted and
was ready to put it on a CPU. That turned out to be the hard part. I
would have had to make a special mounting bracket and got busy, so it
was never finished.

In order for this to work, I would have to use a very large radiator
mounted above the computer so that convection would cause the water to
circulate. The large size of the radiator would provide lots of
cooling area eliminating the need for a fan. I don't know for sure
how well this would work, but even if it is not cooler than a fan, it
will be nearly silent. Only the PSU fan will be running. It might be
possible to eliminate the PSU fan by using a passive chimney. Then it
would be deadly silent with only the hard disk spinning. Well, that
can be eliminated too by using Flash memory!

To help all this work I was thinking that one of the newer very low
power CPUs could be used like the BE-2350. Seems when it is combined
with a 960 based mobo, it is very low power at idle and not very high
at full speed.

I don't know how practical all this is, but it would be the ultimate
in quiet!!!
 
M

Mac Cool

rickman:
The large size of the radiator would provide lots of
cooling area eliminating the need for a fan. I don't know for sure
how well this would work, but even if it is not cooler than a fan, it
will be nearly silent.

A good quality water pump is nearly silent. If you want to eliminate the
fans, go with an evaporative system like I described to the OP. I don't
believe you will get enough water movement through hoses using convection
to prevent the CPU from overheating. You would need a cylinder of water
sitting atop the CPU and some method, probably a fan, of cooling the water
as it rises.
 
F

Frank McCoy

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Mac Cool said:
rickman:


A good quality water pump is nearly silent. If you want to eliminate the
fans, go with an evaporative system like I described to the OP. I don't
believe you will get enough water movement through hoses using convection
to prevent the CPU from overheating. You would need a cylinder of water
sitting atop the CPU and some method, probably a fan, of cooling the water
as it rises.

A. You don't need to restrain yourself to just water.
B. Use heat-pipe methods.
 
R

rickman

A. You don't need to restrain yourself to just water.
B. Use heat-pipe methods.

Water is a pretty good coolant with a high specific heat and ready
availability.

How would a hobbiest work with heat pipes other than using a stock
heat sink incorporation heat pipes? I was not aware that you could
construct your own heat pipes in any practical way.

Actually, wouldn't the design I described using convective movement of
water be pretty much like a heat pipe? I guess the difference is that
the water never goes to the liquid phase... at least I hope not!

I did a little reading, and it looks like you could use Butane to form
a closed loop, passive two phase cooling system at just a little over
2 bar. This would give a vapor temperature of about 25C. Of course
it might be necessary to have a slightly higher working temperature to
make the radiator work effectively. Pentane has a boiling point of 36
C which is higher than desired for cooling the CPU, but will make the
radiator more effective and not require a pressurized system. Of
course both of these are flammable, but with Butane a leak would
quickly depressurize the system and the computer would alarm from an
over heat condition. But clearly, this requires a lot more thought...
 
F

Frank McCoy

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt rickman said:
Water is a pretty good coolant with a high specific heat and ready
availability.

How would a hobbiest work with heat pipes other than using a stock
heat sink incorporation heat pipes? I was not aware that you could
construct your own heat pipes in any practical way.
Heat-pipes are relatively simple devices.
A source of heat, a heat-sink, and a pipe or other connection between
them, a volatile liquid/gas in the device, with a capillary cloth or
material running from the sink to the source.

Water, while usable, is a fairly poor "volatile liquid" to use for a
heat-pipe. You'd prefer a liquid that at "normal" pressure would easily
vaporize at the heat-source temperature; yet condense at the heat-sink
temperature (usually slightly above room-temperature).

There are many liquids that fill the bill:
Gasoline
Propane
Alcohol
Ammonia in water
Various refrigerant liquids.

People tend to shy away from the first three, even when used in a
completely closed device, because of their flammability, and the fourth
because of it's toxicity. That's why Freons were invented (and used
today).

The basic design of a heat-pipe is very simple:
Heat boils a volatile liquid at one end, and it's condensed at the
other. A relatively small cloth, rope, or other such item returns the
now-condensed liquid back to the heated end by capillary action. No
moving parts except the liquid itself.

Yes, water *can* be used; as water *will* boil at reduced pressures.
The common and easiest way to do so is to partially fill the device with
the desired liquid (again, yes, water will do) and bring the *whole
device* to the boiling-point; expelling liquid, air, steam, and other
gas until only the desired liquid and it's gas (steam) is left in the
device; then seal it while still hot and before it starts to suck air
back in.

This can be used to produce "hand boilers" that boil water in the palm
of your hand from the heat therein. Like I said, water *can* be used.

A person can make a demo of this with an old clear lightbulb and a
bunsen-burner. Carefully remove the screw-base without breaking the
bulb. Carefully either nip off, break off, or melt open the seal. Heat
the bulb with a flame for a few seconds to drive out some of the air
inside; then stick the tip into a cup of distilled water; holding it
with a pot-holder so you hands don't get burned. Take the bulb, now
about 10% filled with water, and place over the bunsen-burner in a rack.
Heat until the water is boiling furiously and you figure only steam is
coming out the nib. Reduce heat, and seal. To seal, the *preferred*
way is to melt the original nib closed with the bunsen-burner. However,
wax or epoxy *can* be used if the demo isn't going to be permanent.

Let cool. You'll now have a globe with a small amount of water in the
bottom that will actually *boil* in the palm of your hand from the heat
of your body, until the temperature equalizes.

A heat-pipe works the same way; except it has a heat-sink on the other
end taking away heat as fast as produced on the boiling end; with some
method of returning the liquid to the boiling end ... usually a small
bit of cloth or water-loving fabric that easily wets in the working
fluid. However, in *some* systems where the heatsink is *always* above
the heat-source, gravity also works quite well.

http://www.cheresources.com/htpipes.shtml
http://technology.grc.nasa.gov/tops/TOP300155.pdf
http://electronics-cooling.com/articles/1996/sep/sep96_02.php
Actually, wouldn't the design I described using convective movement of
water be pretty much like a heat pipe? I guess the difference is that
the water never goes to the liquid phase... at least I hope not!

The transfer is nowhere near as efficient as a heat-pipe.
In a really good heatpipe design, the temperature difference between
heatsink end and heat-source rivals or even sometimes beats pumped
liquid designs; but without the problem of pumps, seals, and extra heat
input by the pump itself. Also not energy source other than the heat
differential itself is needed to power the device.
I did a little reading, and it looks like you could use Butane to form
a closed loop, passive two phase cooling system at just a little over
2 bar. This would give a vapor temperature of about 25C. Of course
it might be necessary to have a slightly higher working temperature to
make the radiator work effectively. Pentane has a boiling point of 36
C which is higher than desired for cooling the CPU, but will make the
radiator more effective and not require a pressurized system. Of
course both of these are flammable, but with Butane a leak would
quickly depressurize the system and the computer would alarm from an
over heat condition. But clearly, this requires a lot more thought...

Butane, pentane, propane, all make good working liquids for that
temperature-range. Water *can* be used (see above); but it's "normal"
heat-of-vaporization isn't ideal for the job. Some people though get
scared when working with flammables like those.

OTOH, the machinery to work constantly with freons these days and not
let waste escape to the atmosphere, get rather expensive. (Ask any
air-conditioning auto-mechanic.)

As for a "pressurized system": ALL such systems are pressurized, or at
least SEALED so that there's nothing inside but the desired liquid and
its gas. At whatever temperature you work it at, the liquid/gas *will*
reach equilibrium, where additional heat will cause some of it to boil,
while reducing or removing heat will cause some to condense. That's how
the system works.

And work it will, no matter what the working-fluid, over a *wide* range
of temperatures. Even water. The only worry being:
A. Freezing of the working liquid.
B. Not enough liquid vaporizing fast enough.
C. The working pressure getting too high for the design.

A. In this design is something you won't have to worry about.
(If it freezes, nothing is damaged.)
B. This is where your choice of liquid/gas is chosen.
C. You need to make sure you have a big enough heatsink to keep the
temperature low enough that this doesn't occur.

Finally, you want to make sure your wick and distance run *can* return
enough liquid to the high-end fast enough; or you'll have the source
boiling away all the liquid faster than it can return; with all the
liquid at the heatsink end and only gas at the source (back to your
original convective design) ... a definite no-no for a CPU cooler.

Gravity as a backup helps a lot.

However, when properly designed, heat transfers from source to sink of a
heatpipe with almost unbelievable efficiency; and pretty much at the
speed of sound. It's *almost* a heat-superconductor. Almost.

Like stated above though, that does you no good if your heatsink isn't
big enough to cool the device. All a heatpipe does is *transfer* heat
(like a watercooled device) not get rid of it. You still need a nice
large external heatsink for that. The bigger the better.

You just don't need to have it sitting right on top of the CPU any more.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top