Vista-to-Vista new plan still won't work

G

Gale Green

Hi all.

Any help will be much appreciated.

After three months of failing to make two Vista Business PCs network
via a crossover cable, I gave up and I now have the following:

A Netgear GS605 (5 port) ethernet switch. To this switch, I have
connected two identical Vista PCs (call them A and B), and a Livebox.

Computer A connects to the Internet perfectly well via the Netgear
switch to its attached Livebox; computer B connects to the Internet
using a wireless connection to a different Livebox.

However, the PCs can not see each other.

On computer A, all I can see is "Network", "Access: Local and
Internet". The network map shows "This computer->Gateway->Internet".
The network is Private.

On computer B, I see the wireless network (Private) plus "Local Area
Connection", "Unidentified Network", "Access: Limited Connectivity".
The Local Area Connection is Public and will not stay Private when I
change it. After a short time, or a reboot, it reverts to Public.

Below is the output for ipconfig/all for Computer A, followed by the
same for computer B.

Thanks again for any help.

Gale.

=========================
Computer A

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : Gale01
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : NVIDIA nForce Networking
Controller
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-21-85-6C-E9-F7
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . :
fe80::5cae:4050:be2d:c9dd%10(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.123(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 21 January 2009 15:19:37
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 22 January 2009 15:19:37
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 6:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . :
isatap.{01E6DA7C-B433-4D34-9EC1-326B840DF
CD8}
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

=============
Computer B

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : Mum01
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : NVIDIA nForce 10/100/1000 Mbps
Ethernet #
3
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-21-85-03-A1-89
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . :
fe80::80b0:9c24:9df1:475c%16(Preferred)
Autoconfiguration IPv4 Address. . : 169.254.71.92(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.0.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : fec0:0:0:ffff::1%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::2%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::3%1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Wireless LAN adapter Wireless Network Connection 2:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : 802.11g USB 2.0 adapter #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0B-6B-9C-74-BD
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . :
fe80::3050:6b5c:f086:29f0%12(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.12(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 21 January 2009 15:12:20
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 22 January 2009 15:12:20
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 6:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . :
isatap.{E6328AFE-C639-43D2-B0CF-4BEE1ED59
991}
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 7:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . :
isatap.{C8F28702-FC4F-449A-97BD-297901F83
98A}
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 11:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Teredo Tunneling
Pseudo-Interface
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 02-00-54-55-4E-01
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
 
G

Gale Green

Having looked at the ipconfig listings, I noticed that I had not
upgraded to the latest ethernet driver on computer A. I've now done
that but the ipconfig output still looks exactly the same, except for
the Ethernet adapter's "Description".

Gale.
 
G

Gale Green

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:40:59 -0600, "Robert L. \(MS-MVP\)"

Hi.

Thanks for the response.
Can both computers ping each other by IP?
Click to expand...

No. I get "Destination host is unreachable" in both directions.

If it makes any difference, the cables from the PCs to the Netgear
switch are Cat 6, the one from the switch to the Livebox is Cat 5E.

Gale.
 
G

Gale Green

It seems to me they are not in the same subnet physically. How do you
connect those Liveboxes?
Click to expand...

The wireless one on computer B uses an 802.11g driver supplied by
Orange (the ISP). It's not configured by me at all. The one on
computer A is just connected to the ethernet switch.

Should I be somehow setting the Local Area Connection on computer B to
point to the (sub)net of computer A? Presumably, if I change the one
on computer A, it will lose sight of the Livebox?

Gale.
 
R

RalfG

They both look to be on the same IPv4 subnet already. The rest you should be
able to ignore for LAN connectivity. Is either computer showing that they
are connected to a Public network in your Network and Sharing Center? That
would cause it to block incoming connections from the other computer. The
connections on both would have to be flagged as Private Network (Customize).
Are Network Discovery and File Sharing turned on in both computers and are
there any shared folders on each computer?
 
G

Gale Green

Thanks for the reply. I have now made both PCs attach to the Internet
using wireless connections to their respective Liveboxes. I thought
this might simplify the home LAN problem. However, it hasn't changed a
thing. Both computers still show their IP addresses as 169.254.x.x, on
the Local Area Connection, which I think are invalid IP addresses.

The wireless networks are Private on both machines; the local network
shows as Public on each computer (and each shows as "Unidentified
network"). If I change them to Private, they revert to Public a short
time later, or when I reboot.

On both computers, Network Discovery is on, as are File Sharing,
Printer Sharing and Public Folder Sharing. Each computer has a single
folder, C:\somename, that is shared with Everyone and Guest (both
Co-owners).

I have had this problem for three months with Vista, originally with a
crossover cable, which worked as soon as I plugged it in, back in the
good old days of XP Pro, and now with straight-through cables
connected to an Ethernet switch.

I'm beginning to think that I'm never going to get these computers
talking to each other, and I'm doomed to spend the rest of my days
walking USB Flash Drives between them. <g> I wish I knew a bit more
about networking.

Gale.
 
G

Gale Green

Having read a bit more, I have removed IPv6 from the Local Area
Connection on each computer, and changed the NIC drivers from
"Autonegotiate" to "Autonegotiate for 100 mbps Full Duplex".

The lights on the Ethernet ports now glow green instead of orange,
which I thought might be a good sign, and the port speed now shows as
100 mbps, but nothing else has changed - still "Unidentified network"
on both machines, and one shows "Limited connectivity" while the other
shows "Local only".

Sigh.

Gale.
 
R

RalfG

In a previous message you said the computer IPs were

fe80::5cae:4050:be2d:c9dd%10(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.123(Preferred)

And

fe80::3050:6b5c:f086:29f0%12(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.12(Preferred)

Both were connecting to
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

so those two addresses should be able to talk to each other on the Private
network, assuming the workgroup is the same for both , other network
configurations are correct and that this network is the default connection
on both computers. I'm not familiar with Live box so I don't know if it
provides NAT routing services for LAN but from your descriptions it sounds
like not. Without routing services the Live Box connections would act as
independent internet connections, with no LAN communications possible over
the Live Box.

Without NAT routing or if your wireless adapters are connecting to two
different DHCP servers then there is no way that they can communicate with
each other as the adapters are effectively connected to separate networks
even if they are both using the same IP subnet. Since you also have 2 active
network adapters in each computer you have the equivalent of 2 separate
networks installed on each computer, one on wireless and a different one on
the ethernet adapters. Without adequate configuration Windows networking is
liable to randomly switch between the networks whenever you restart the
system, which isn't going to work. Ideally you want to connect the computers
to only a single network if possible, that means one common DHCP server with
NAT routing. The alternative is to configure a LAN on the crossover
connection manually as a distinct network from the internet connection(s).

The 169.x.x.x address on the LAN adapters indicates that they are configured
for DHCP but aren't getting a DHCP address because they aren't connected to
any DHCP servers. There is no DNS service either. The only way they could
get DHCP addresses is to connect them directly to a router or other DHCP
server, or enable Internet Connection Sharing on one of the computers (not
what you want to do in your situation). In order to use a crossover cable
you'd have to assign addresses to the ethernet adapters manually. You could
use the 169.x.x.x addresses for the LAN connection but you'd also have to
make sure the rest of the TCIP configuration is correct for that subnet
(i.e. no 192.x.x.x references at all in their configs). The LAN adapters
would not communicate with anything having a 192.x.x.x address so the
crossover connection is effectively isolated from your internet connection.

I ran with a vaguely similar setup to what you want to do, in the deep,
dark, distant, past. :) If you want the LAN to function your network
topography should be arranged something like these :

Plan A

Internet ====[NAT Routing + DHCP]==SWITCH ----------PC1
|
----------------PC2

Plan B


Internet ==== [DHCP] ----------------PC1
| |
X crossover cable with
manual configuration
| |
Internet ==== [DHCP]-----------------PC2


Plan A typically works 'out of the box', whether wired or wireless. Plan B
requires extra configuration to make it work. In either case you should
assign numeric metric values in the tcp/ip settings for all of the adapters
in your computers.. lower numbers indicating higher preference. That will
help keep Windows networking from mismatching the network connections. If
you won't be using the ethernet adapters at all you can simply disable them.

A useful networking resource site here:

http://www.practicallynetworked.com/support/troubleshoot_index.htm
 
G

Gale Green

Thanks for all that Ralf. I shall take it away and absorb it as best I
can.

One further question - how come when both computers were XP Pro, this
all worked "out of the box"? I made wireless connections from each PC
to its respective Livebox, then connected a crossover cable between
them, which just worked, as soon as I'd set up the shares. Having
spent three months failing to make it work with Vista PCs, I bought an
ethernet switch, which PC World assured me would solve my problems,
but in fact has made no difference at all.

I think your Plan B is what I had in the first place. I'll see when
I've had a proper read.

Thanks again.

Gale.

In a previous message you said the computer IPs were

fe80::5cae:4050:be2d:c9dd%10(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.123(Preferred)

And

fe80::3050:6b5c:f086:29f0%12(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.12(Preferred)

Both were connecting to
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

so those two addresses should be able to talk to each other on the Private
network, assuming the workgroup is the same for both , other network
configurations are correct and that this network is the default connection
on both computers. I'm not familiar with Live box so I don't know if it
provides NAT routing services for LAN but from your descriptions it sounds
like not. Without routing services the Live Box connections would act as
independent internet connections, with no LAN communications possible over
the Live Box.

Without NAT routing or if your wireless adapters are connecting to two
different DHCP servers then there is no way that they can communicate with
each other as the adapters are effectively connected to separate networks
even if they are both using the same IP subnet. Since you also have 2 active
network adapters in each computer you have the equivalent of 2 separate
networks installed on each computer, one on wireless and a different one on
the ethernet adapters. Without adequate configuration Windows networking is
liable to randomly switch between the networks whenever you restart the
system, which isn't going to work. Ideally you want to connect the computers
to only a single network if possible, that means one common DHCP server with
NAT routing. The alternative is to configure a LAN on the crossover
connection manually as a distinct network from the internet connection(s).

The 169.x.x.x address on the LAN adapters indicates that they are configured
for DHCP but aren't getting a DHCP address because they aren't connected to
any DHCP servers. There is no DNS service either. The only way they could
get DHCP addresses is to connect them directly to a router or other DHCP
server, or enable Internet Connection Sharing on one of the computers (not
what you want to do in your situation). In order to use a crossover cable
you'd have to assign addresses to the ethernet adapters manually. You could
use the 169.x.x.x addresses for the LAN connection but you'd also have to
make sure the rest of the TCIP configuration is correct for that subnet
(i.e. no 192.x.x.x references at all in their configs). The LAN adapters
would not communicate with anything having a 192.x.x.x address so the
crossover connection is effectively isolated from your internet connection.

I ran with a vaguely similar setup to what you want to do, in the deep,
dark, distant, past. :) If you want the LAN to function your network
topography should be arranged something like these :

Plan A

Internet ====[NAT Routing + DHCP]==SWITCH ----------PC1
|
----------------PC2

Plan B


Internet ==== [DHCP] ----------------PC1
| |
X crossover cable with
manual configuration
| |
Internet ==== [DHCP]-----------------PC2


Plan A typically works 'out of the box', whether wired or wireless. Plan B
requires extra configuration to make it work. In either case you should
assign numeric metric values in the tcp/ip settings for all of the adapters
in your computers.. lower numbers indicating higher preference. That will
help keep Windows networking from mismatching the network connections. If
you won't be using the ethernet adapters at all you can simply disable them.

A useful networking resource site here:

http://www.practicallynetworked.com/support/troubleshoot_index.htm




Gale Green said:
Thanks for the reply. I have now made both PCs attach to the Internet
using wireless connections to their respective Liveboxes. I thought
this might simplify the home LAN problem. However, it hasn't changed a
thing. Both computers still show their IP addresses as 169.254.x.x, on
the Local Area Connection, which I think are invalid IP addresses.

The wireless networks are Private on both machines; the local network
shows as Public on each computer (and each shows as "Unidentified
network"). If I change them to Private, they revert to Public a short
time later, or when I reboot.

On both computers, Network Discovery is on, as are File Sharing,
Printer Sharing and Public Folder Sharing. Each computer has a single
folder, C:\somename, that is shared with Everyone and Guest (both
Co-owners).

I have had this problem for three months with Vista, originally with a
crossover cable, which worked as soon as I plugged it in, back in the
good old days of XP Pro, and now with straight-through cables
connected to an Ethernet switch.

I'm beginning to think that I'm never going to get these computers
talking to each other, and I'm doomed to spend the rest of my days
walking USB Flash Drives between them. <g> I wish I knew a bit more
about networking.

Gale.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
R

RalfG

I can't say for sure but I suspect it is because XP does not have an
interactive firewall trying to identify and secure your network connections
for you. In XP you have to mess up the firewall settings manually. :)

You can have two network connections in Vista but if they aren't well
defined (as with adapters that get random addresses from automatic
addressing when you reboot) Vista may see a new network any time the IP of
an adapter is different than it expects. I think if you configure the
ethernet adapters with fixed addresses and set the metric value such that
they will always be initiated after the wireless adapters the firewall
related part of the issue will settle down. Give the connection a name so
that you can readily identify that it is being properly detected in Vista's
firewall and networking. For instance you shouldn't be seeing things like an
'unidentified network' to nowhere being discovered on the ethernet
connection or a wired LAN adapter that is apparently connected to the
network via your wireless Live Box.

Gale Green said:
Thanks for all that Ralf. I shall take it away and absorb it as best I
can.

One further question - how come when both computers were XP Pro, this
all worked "out of the box"? I made wireless connections from each PC
to its respective Livebox, then connected a crossover cable between
them, which just worked, as soon as I'd set up the shares. Having
spent three months failing to make it work with Vista PCs, I bought an
ethernet switch, which PC World assured me would solve my problems,
but in fact has made no difference at all.

I think your Plan B is what I had in the first place. I'll see when
I've had a proper read.

Thanks again.

Gale.

In a previous message you said the computer IPs were

fe80::5cae:4050:be2d:c9dd%10(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.123(Preferred)

And

fe80::3050:6b5c:f086:29f0%12(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.12(Preferred)

Both were connecting to
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

so those two addresses should be able to talk to each other on the Private
network, assuming the workgroup is the same for both , other network
configurations are correct and that this network is the default connection
on both computers. I'm not familiar with Live box so I don't know if
it
provides NAT routing services for LAN but from your descriptions it sounds
like not. Without routing services the Live Box connections would act as
independent internet connections, with no LAN communications possible over
the Live Box.

Without NAT routing or if your wireless adapters are connecting to two
different DHCP servers then there is no way that they can communicate with
each other as the adapters are effectively connected to separate networks
even if they are both using the same IP subnet. Since you also have 2
active
network adapters in each computer you have the equivalent of 2 separate
networks installed on each computer, one on wireless and a different one
on
the ethernet adapters. Without adequate configuration Windows networking
is
liable to randomly switch between the networks whenever you restart the
system, which isn't going to work. Ideally you want to connect the
computers
to only a single network if possible, that means one common DHCP server
with
NAT routing. The alternative is to configure a LAN on the crossover
connection manually as a distinct network from the internet connection(s).

The 169.x.x.x address on the LAN adapters indicates that they are
configured
for DHCP but aren't getting a DHCP address because they aren't connected
to
any DHCP servers. There is no DNS service either. The only way they could
get DHCP addresses is to connect them directly to a router or other DHCP
server, or enable Internet Connection Sharing on one of the computers (not
what you want to do in your situation). In order to use a crossover cable
you'd have to assign addresses to the ethernet adapters manually. You
could
use the 169.x.x.x addresses for the LAN connection but you'd also have to
make sure the rest of the TCIP configuration is correct for that subnet
(i.e. no 192.x.x.x references at all in their configs). The LAN adapters
would not communicate with anything having a 192.x.x.x address so the
crossover connection is effectively isolated from your internet
connection.

I ran with a vaguely similar setup to what you want to do, in the deep,
dark, distant, past. :) If you want the LAN to function your network
topography should be arranged something like these :

Plan A

Internet ====[NAT Routing + DHCP]==SWITCH ----------PC1
|
----------------PC2

Plan B


Internet ==== [DHCP] ----------------PC1
| |
X crossover cable
with
manual configuration
| |
Internet ==== [DHCP]-----------------PC2


Plan A typically works 'out of the box', whether wired or wireless. Plan B
requires extra configuration to make it work. In either case you should
assign numeric metric values in the tcp/ip settings for all of the
adapters
in your computers.. lower numbers indicating higher preference. That will
help keep Windows networking from mismatching the network connections. If
you won't be using the ethernet adapters at all you can simply disable
them.

A useful networking resource site here:

http://www.practicallynetworked.com/support/troubleshoot_index.htm




Gale Green said:
Thanks for the reply. I have now made both PCs attach to the Internet
using wireless connections to their respective Liveboxes. I thought
this might simplify the home LAN problem. However, it hasn't changed a
thing. Both computers still show their IP addresses as 169.254.x.x, on
the Local Area Connection, which I think are invalid IP addresses.

The wireless networks are Private on both machines; the local network
shows as Public on each computer (and each shows as "Unidentified
network"). If I change them to Private, they revert to Public a short
time later, or when I reboot.

On both computers, Network Discovery is on, as are File Sharing,
Printer Sharing and Public Folder Sharing. Each computer has a single
folder, C:\somename, that is shared with Everyone and Guest (both
Co-owners).

I have had this problem for three months with Vista, originally with a
crossover cable, which worked as soon as I plugged it in, back in the
good old days of XP Pro, and now with straight-through cables
connected to an Ethernet switch.

I'm beginning to think that I'm never going to get these computers
talking to each other, and I'm doomed to spend the rest of my days
walking USB Flash Drives between them. <g> I wish I knew a bit more
about networking.

Gale.

They both look to be on the same IPv4 subnet already. The rest you
should
be
able to ignore for LAN connectivity. Is either computer showing that
they
are connected to a Public network in your Network and Sharing Center?
That
would cause it to block incoming connections from the other computer.
The
connections on both would have to be flagged as Private Network
(Customize).
Are Network Discovery and File Sharing turned on in both computers and
are
there any shared folders on each computer?

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:06:08 -0600, "Robert L. \(MS-MVP\)"

It seems to me they are not in the same subnet physically. How do you
connect those Liveboxes?

The wireless one on computer B uses an 802.11g driver supplied by
Orange (the ISP). It's not configured by me at all. The one on
computer A is just connected to the ethernet switch.

Should I be somehow setting the Local Area Connection on computer B to
point to the (sub)net of computer A? Presumably, if I change the one
on computer A, it will lose sight of the Livebox?

Gale.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
G

Gale Green

I think there is something more basic going wrong here.

I disconnected the wireless adapters from both computers, so there was
only the local LAN for them to deal with. They still will not talk to
each other.

I have tried using both the crossover cable, from computer to
computer, and straight-through cables connecting each computer to the
Ethernet switch.

In each case, both computers say "Unidentified network", one says
"Local only" and the other says "Limited or no connectivity".

I'm going to have an early night and think about it with a clearer
head tomorrow.

Gale.
 

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