Vista and zipfiles

[Sema]

Hello!

I have Vista Home Premium (German localization) installed here and tried
to unzip a programm to C:\Programme.
First of all Vista keeps confusing me with Programme and Program Files,
which is apparently the same folder, but conveniently not explained
anywhere when you first start a new computer with this strange OS.

Secondly, both Winzip and Winrar (up-to-date versions, as I am testing
both and trying to decide between them) refuse to unzip into the Program
Files folder, and this is annoying me a lot. I work with PC's long
enough to know when I want to unzip where to, and if the Programm Files
folder is not for those programs, what use is it else?
I tried creating the destination folder manually, but still neither
Winzip nor Winrar could successfully unzip, as they could not create the
necessary subfolders.

Another issue, which is most likely connected with that, is the failing
auto update of my thunderbird installation. I don't really understand
how I managed to install a 1.5 version just a few weeks ago, but I
apparently did, and got a few security warnings to please upgrade to
2.0.0.6. Three times I gave permission to upgrade right away, three
times the software d'lded nearly 8 MB, appeared to install it, restarted
thunderbird and showed me the old view. Today I finally d'lded the full
package manually and overwrote the old installation, which seems to have
gone well. Why the heck did the autoupdate fail and was not even able to
tell me this little fact? And more to the point of this ng, why did
Vista prevent this update in the first place? I never had similar
problems under XP Home.

I would appreciate any answers, tips, hints, urls, whatever, that could
help me to work with Vista without elevated blood pressure again.

Gruß,
Sema

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Secondly, both Winzip and Winrar (up-to-date versions, as I am testing
both and trying to decide between them) refuse to unzip into the Program
Files folder, and this is annoying me a lot. I work with PC's long enough
to know when I want to unzip where to, and if the Programm Files folder is
not for those programs, what use is it else?

You make a directory or folder using Explore like, Sema, and unzip the files
there. I have not had any problems using Winzip on Vista in that manner. Or
you launch Winzip or the other program with Run as Administrator to escalate
the program's privileges to write to the Programs directory even though
you're logged on to the machine as Admin.

http://vistasupport.mvps.org/run_as_administrator.htm

 

[Sema]

You make a directory or folder using Explore like, Sema, and unzip the
files there. I have not had any problems using Winzip on Vista in that
manner. Or you launch Winzip or the other program with Run as
Administrator to escalate the program's privileges to write to the
Programs directory even though you're logged on to the machine as Admin.

http://vistasupport.mvps.org/run_as_administrator.htm

I have created a subfolder inside of program files which I wanted to
use, but Vista doesn't let me.
The second option would require me to start Winzip first and let it open
the zipfile. I much prefer clicking on the zipfile directly, especially
as it is shown in my browsers status bar, which is a much more
straightforward way. But that way I have no option to start Winzip (or
Winrar) with Admin rights.
All in all I don't understand what MS is bothered with and why unzipping
a simple folder structure into Program Files is all of a sudden a major
issue?

Gruß,
Sema

 

[Robert James]

Hello Sema,

Program files n folder is the one we r talking about it.

Secondly, for me winzip n winrar work fine for me in all folders.
Are you having admin full rights on that PC?

 

[Sema]

Hello Sema,

Program files n folder is the one we r talking about it.

Secondly, for me winzip n winrar work fine for me in all folders.
Are you having admin full rights on that PC?

Yes, I am the only user on that pc.
I extract some files regularly in another folder I created in the root
directory and have never had any problems there, which is why I don't
understand why extracting into the program files folder should be so
much different.

Gruß,
Sema

 

[Mr. Arnold]

I have created a subfolder inside of program files which I wanted to use,
but Vista doesn't let me.
The second option would require me to start Winzip first and let it open
the zipfile. I much prefer clicking on the zipfile directly, especially as
it is shown in my browsers status bar, which is a much more
straightforward way. But that way I have no option to start Winzip (or
Winrar) with Admin rights.
All in all I don't understand what MS is bothered with and why unzipping a
simple folder structure into Program Files is all of a sudden a major
issue?

That's because malware can easily install itself into the Programs Files
directory in previous versions of the NT based O/S such as XP, Win 2K or non
NT classed O/S(s) such as Win ME and 9'x (like Win 98).

Well, an un-savvy user really wouldn't look in the Program Files directory
for any thing suspicious in most cases. Now the Program Files directory is
protected on Vista. You can't even go into the Program Files or
Windows/System32 directory, even with Explore, using your user account Admin
rights and do what you want. You're going to be stopped and asked to confirm
it.

And if a program is trying to do something in those directories, even if you
are admin on the machine with the program running under your account admin
privileges, the program still needs the UAC privileges to be escalated to do
it using Run As Administrator or the program is using the Vista UAC manifest
to present security credentials to Vista to do it, still using Run As
Administrator for its UAC manifest.

I suggest you look it about Vista UAC and what it's about. You can always
disable Vista's UAC, but I don't recommend that you do that.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

<snipped>

C:\Sema

If you make that directory and -unzip files there, you are free to do
anything you want, you and the program.

C:\Program Files\Sema

You nor a program is going to do what you or it wants, without escalated
privileges with UAC enabled.

 

[Adam Albright]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:12:57 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.

That's because malware can easily install itself into the Programs Files
directory in previous versions of the NT based O/S such as XP, Win 2K or non
NT classed O/S(s) such as Win ME and 9'x (like Win 98).

Well, an un-savvy user really wouldn't look in the Program Files directory
for any thing suspicious in most cases. Now the Program Files directory is
protected on Vista. You can't even go into the Program Files or
Windows/System32 directory, even with Explore, using your user account Admin
rights and do what you want. You're going to be stopped and asked to confirm
it.

Which accomplishes what exactly?

Sorry Mr. wannabe, I'm not impressed with a simple nag screen I can
click through. A good analogy comparing the relative worth of UAC nag
screens to reality would be similar to the Surgeon General's warnings
on a package of cigarettes:

"WARNING: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And
May Complicate Pregnancy."

Such a warning DOES NOT nor CAN NOT prevent people from smoking if
they choose to do so. In a similar vain UAC doesn't stop anything at
this level, it merely warns, and if presented with the same nag screen
over and over when trying to do the same tasks human nature being what
it is the typical user will quickly ignore whatever the warning says
regardless of any potential risk and only be frustrated by being
senselessly nagged by it repeatedly and end up doing what they started
to do in the first place.

I suggest you look it about Vista UAC and what it's about.

Its about BULLSHIT and some idiots keep defending it which only
confirms they are clueless idiots.

As I have said over and over, if UAC was any good it would LEARN and
act based on past experience. I don't mind being told doing X may be a
risk. However I damn well do mind if I'm told the same thing hundreds
or even thousands of times in the course of a year of using Vista
especially if the nag is over something trivial and can't ever present
a real security risk in the first place like nagging about deleting a
shortcut on the desktop which brain dead Vista is dumb enough to do
and laughingly does BY DESIGN.

It is insulting to users that Microsoft couldn't do better with five
years development time. Again the reality is Microsoft doesn't know
how to write quality software. They excel at creating mediocre
software they ship prematurely that tends to annoy and hamper end
users with stupid poorly implemented not well thought out, rarely
tested "features" nobody asked for.

It is mind numbingly stupid that Vista will offer in excess of a
hundred ways to add columns to Windows Explorer, yet gives you the
user no way to customize WHAT UAC nags about over and over.

Again this arrogance is grounded in Microsoft thinking they are doing
me a favor in letting me use my machine and instead of setting it up
the way I want it set up, demanding it runs under some rigid specs
some dummy sitting a cubicle in Redmond decided without thinking how
it would impact end users.

At minimum what should be changed about UAC is letting the end user
DECIDE what level of "security" he wishes rather than the current all
or nothing approach as is possible now with letting the user decide
how IE 7 allows you to customize how the Microsoft browser responds
when hitting certain web content.

I'm a big boy and can decide for MYSELF what level of security I need.
If somebody wants excessive hand holding, fine. Others not needing it
should be able to customize UAC to provide some middle of the road
setting rather the current crude all or nothing approach by either
turning UAC off or on. Maybe such things are beyond Microsoft's
software engineers. Matter of fact I find the term insulting to real
programmers, if so-called software engineers need 50 million lines of
code to write a sluggish so-so OS. <snicker>

 

[Sema]

<snipped>

C:\Sema

If you make that directory and -unzip files there, you are free to do
anything you want, you and the program.

C:\Program Files\Sema

You nor a program is going to do what you or it wants, without escalated
privileges with UAC enabled.

Thanks, it really seems this is the only way to circumvent this nonsense
without turning UAC off.
Still it's an extremely silly idea to protect the program files folder
and leave the rest wide open.
and who is silly enough not to check the program files folder for
malware? I insist on having all files that belong to a program stored
inside its folder, so that when I search something, I find it very fast.
I was and am very unhappy with that silly idea to store the data in a
virtual folder deep inside Windows that gets overlooked when you are
manually sorting and backupping programs and connected data.
It's very unintuitive and has cost me my complete email adress book and
all stored emails at least twice.
Now at least Thunderbird's profile is stored where it belongs, so that
won't happen again.

Anyway, thanks for the answers, even if they didn't exactly lead to the
result I would have liked most.

Gruß,
Sema

 

[John Barnes]

Vista does not decide where to put the data, and doesn't hide it. Same as
XP etc. it is put where the program says to put it. Vista has changed the
name of the recommended folder from 'Documents and Settings' to 'Users', but
has provided a pointer so that any program that writes to the Documents and
Settings folder will actually write it to Users

 

[John Barnes]

So what's wrong with just opening where it is and then moving the extracted
file to programs ?

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Thanks, it really seems this is the only way to circumvent this nonsense
without turning UAC off.

Still it's an extremely silly idea to protect the program files folder and
leave the rest wide open.

Leave what else open? There are really only two critical areas that should
be protected from letting anything just happen in those directories. That
is the Program Files and Windows/System32 directories.

and who is silly enough not to check the program files folder for malware?

That would be the masses of un-savvy users that don't know about such
things, other than, they know how to turn a computer on and use it. And
that's a vast, vast and vast majority of users using the Windows based
O/S(s).

Do you think that they don't exist?

I insist on having all files that belong to a program stored inside its
folder, so that when I search something, I find it very fast.

Well, you either turn UAC off or you use the proper credentials by using Run
As Admin and do it. You're not coming around it any other way.

I was and am very unhappy with that silly idea to store the data in a
virtual folder deep inside Windows that gets overlooked when you are
manually sorting and backupping programs and connected data.

You might want to take it up with MS. I am not MS.

It's very unintuitive and has cost me my complete email adress book and
all stored emails at least twice.
Now at least Thunderbird's profile is stored where it belongs, so that
won't happen again.

I use Windows Mail and Thunderbird. I didn't and don't have a problem using
either one of the solutions.

Anyway, thanks for the answers, even if they didn't exactly lead to the
result I would have liked most.

It is what it is.

Good luck

 

[Guest]

That is funny Sema.
I can extract zip-files right into "C:\Program files".
I unzip with the unzipper that comes with Vista and it lets me also create a
new folder in "Program files" before to unzip the content of my zipfile into
it.