Very Interesting video - worth a watch


F

FromTheRafters

Bear said:
It's not a lot of work at all. If I'm going to make an image, I do it
when I take a break or eat lunch or go to bed or whatever...and it
actually only takes an average of about 20 minutes for my system anyway.

Restoring an image, well the same thing applies. It's a very simple
thing to do.


This makes no sense. There are no silver bullets when it comes to
malware prevention. I've said that here many times. There is no such
thing as a cure-all for anything. I've never said there was. What I have
said is the process I use is the best approach using today's tools and
it includes several safety nets.

Why else would you need to recover...it is exactly a plan to manage your
system and data and free yourself from the harm malware can inflict. Of
course it also applies to hard drive failure or the like, but such is
more rare and some people can change out their own hard drive and some
can't. Anyone can do the Pristine image and data management plans.

I'd like for you to list a comprehensive plan that would be more
efficient than the one I propose. If you are going to poo poo my plan,
then at least have the courtesy to back it up with a specific
alternative that works better and is easier, takes less time and allows
any skill level to do so. Balls in your court.
Just where did I poo poo your plan. I don't recall ever doing so.
 
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B

Bear

I'm not sure I'd credit him as the author... Possible, but not
entirely likely. The slow infector relies on it not being detected for
sometime, so that it can slowly work it's way into your backup
history. As it's unknown at that point, it's a safe bet he'd include
it in a supposedly "clean" image-short of install from clean media on
known clean HD and no 3rd party apps. In reality this wouldn't work
anymore due to the rapid rate in which samples are passed around and
new definitions are posted to deal with them.
You can be certain the plan is my own. I've never seen anyone detail
such a plan as I've developed. I'm not saying it's complex, as if you
think it through with determined purpose, I suppose anyone could come up
with the same plan. Can that plan be improved...I haven't see how. Have
I seen anyone anywhere present such a plan....NO!
In the past tho, the slow infector did have these backup systems in
mind and intended to take advantage of the process.
The plan never uses any data that has been on a computer in use for any
amount of time. Could something go wrong...of course though unlikely if
the process is properly disciplined, but if such is discovered, there is
a failsafe backup plan for that. I've spent many hours testing than
thinking the plan through and it is as good as possible,
Wrong.

Based on his posts recently, he seems to behold some sort of grudge
against techie types. Perhaps he feels they rip people off. He feels
his plan puts techies out of business.
Not at all. It's the teach a person to fish thingy. My plan can be
easily enacted by anyone with the skills to download and install a
program. If they use it, they become self-reliant and have no need to
seek anyones help, lose no data ever, and can be certain they are using
a clean machine. Most end-users don't have the skills to become self-
reliant without such a plan. I also think the plan is worthy for
experienced users, as it eliminates the hours required to skillfully
clean a machine and be CERTAIN it is clean, not just have faith it is.

Such a concept is how I finally developed the plan as it is now. I
believe anything can be improved, and as I am the only contributor to
the plan at this point, experienced folks may be able to offer
suggestions on how to improve it if possible. I've had none of that,
from anyone here...just bitching.



--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
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mail
 
B

Bear

Just where did I poo poo your plan. I don't recall ever doing so.
Read some of your responses to Dustin...or are you just kissing ass?

LOL...I don't hate you dude. I'm just trying to get my ideas across,
elicit positive feedback pro or con, and I dislike the trollish
responses. I would prefer civil discussion, but I can hang either way.

--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
F

FromTheRafters

Bear said:
Read some of your responses to Dustin...or are you just kissing ass?
I attempted to correct him on his interpretation on a minor point of
your recovery scheme, how do you see that as kissing ass?
LOL...I don't hate you dude. I'm just trying to get my ideas across,
elicit positive feedback pro or con, and I dislike the trollish
responses. I would prefer civil discussion, but I can hang either way.
I have numerous times described your plan as worthy, my only gripe is
that it doesn't belong in an anti-virus newsgroup because it doesn't
address prevention which is what AV is ultimately about.

Your continued posting of that and other off-topic subjects in here is
why I called you 'trollish'.

....and I don't hate you either.
 
B

Bear

I attempted to correct him on his interpretation on a minor point of
your recovery scheme, how do you see that as kissing ass?


I have numerous times described your plan as worthy, my only gripe is
that it doesn't belong in an anti-virus newsgroup because it doesn't
address prevention which is what AV is ultimately about.
Ah so if you get infected you are shit out of luck eh.
Your continued posting of that and other off-topic subjects in here is
why I called you 'trollish'.
I suppose my reply above says it all. You are wrong IMO.

The Imaging and data plan is part and parcel of my overall security plan
which covers prevention /and/ recovery. That /is/ what should be
discussed in this group.

So you think only virus and no other type of malware and the prevention
of is the only on topic material for this group...yeah, I added virus to
what you said as it is more literal.

I'll admit when I'm wrong, but not simply because someone says I
am...there has to be merit.




--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
B

Bear

Ah so if you get infected you are shit out of luck eh.
I suppose my reply above says it all. You are wrong IMO.

The Imaging and data plan is part and parcel of my overall security
plan which covers prevention /and/ recovery. That /is/ what should be
discussed in this group.

So you think only virus and no other type of malware and the
prevention of is the only on topic material for this group...yeah, I
added virus to what you said as it is more literal.

I'll admit when I'm wrong, but not simply because someone says I
am...there has to be merit.
The description for this group is: "Anti-virus topics relating to
computers" and not /only/ the prevention of. All forms of recovery
techniques have been discussed in this forum and even had it not been
so, it is most definitely an important part of the process of discussing
"Anti-virus topics relating to computers."



--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
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P

Peter Foldes

I have numerous times described your plan as worthy, my only gripe is that it
doesn't belong in an anti-virus newsgroup because it doesn't address prevention
which is what AV is ultimately about.

Your continued posting of that and other off-topic subjects in here is why I
called you 'trollish'.
Ah FTR. You cannot win or better still make Bear understand this discussion. He
does not and does not want to.
I have a long time ago decided that he is a Troll on account he is continually
beating a dead horse and will not make the effort to see other persons side on the
subject at hand.

JS
 
B

Bear

Ah FTR. You cannot win or better still make Bear understand this
discussion. He does not and does not want to.
I have a long time ago decided that he is a Troll on account he is
continually beating a dead horse and will not make the effort to see
other persons side on the subject at hand.

JS
I always see the other persons side on a subject. I just don't always
agree with it. You have stalked me since I've been in these groups with
never a positive contribution about anything.

--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
F

FromTheRafters

Bear said:
Ah so if you get infected you are shit out of luck eh.
Where did I say that?

There was a time when it was being argued that AV software should *not*
endeavor to repair an infection. It was thought better to detect and
delete corrupted programs and data, then restore them from backups. Only
later did they endeavor to clean files which IMO was just enabling users
to use unsafe practices - like not making those necessary backups.
I suppose my reply above says it all. You are wrong IMO.
We are both entitled to our opinions.
The Imaging and data plan is part and parcel of my overall security plan
which covers prevention /and/ recovery.
I never said otherwise.
That /is/ what should be
discussed in this group.
I never said otherwise. I *did* say that recovery/restore operations do
*not* address the malware problem *at all*, and I didn't say that we
don't discuss other security issues here even though that wasn't the
original purpose of this group.
So you think only virus and no other type of malware and the prevention
of is the only on topic material for this group...yeah, I added virus to
what you said as it is more literal.
You're welcome to ask me what I think, but please don't *tell* me what I
think.
I'll admit when I'm wrong, but not simply because someone says I
am...there has to be merit.
It seems to me that you're defending a viewpoint that is not being
attacked. A first step in disaster recovery is backup-backup-backup; a
first step in antimalware is to attempt prevention. If that fails, and
it *will*, it might then qualify as a disaster to be recovered from
depending on the malware(s) encountered.
 
F

FromTheRafters

Peter said:
Ah FTR. You cannot win or better still make Bear understand this
discussion. He does not and does not want to.
I have a long time ago decided that he is a Troll on account he is
continually beating a dead horse and will not make the effort to see
other persons side on the subject at hand.
Thanks for your input, Peter. I'll probably come to the same conclusion
but I want to give Bear the chance to bend a little first. If he remains
unwilling to learn, that's very telling.
 
B

Bear

Where did I say that?
You said if it doesn't address prevention [period] then it is off-topic.

That clearly leaves out anything else for discussion but prevention.

There was a time when it was being argued that AV software should
*not* endeavor to repair an infection. It was thought better to detect
and delete corrupted programs and data, then restore them from
backups. Only later did they endeavor to clean files which IMO was
just enabling users to use unsafe practices - like not making those
necessary backups.
I agree. In order to properly clean a machine, you should be an expert.
Lot's of folks try and bork their machines or miss well hidden malware.
We are both entitled to our opinions.

I agree. My opinion however does not include telling you what to do or
not do.
I never said otherwise.


I never said otherwise. I *did* say that recovery/restore operations
do *not* address the malware problem *at all*, and I didn't say that
we don't discuss other security issues here even though that wasn't
the original purpose of this group.
We disagree. It better addresses the malware problem for regular users
(as in non-expert malware technicians) than anything else. Even the
experts resort to such.
You're welcome to ask me what I think, but please don't *tell* me what
I think.
I am trying to get you to clarify what you said: "... it doesn't address
prevention which is what AV is ultimately about. [period] That is just
wrong. It is what you said and all that you said. I'm not telling you
anything other than what you said.
It seems to me that you're defending a viewpoint that is not being
attacked. A first step in disaster recovery is backup-backup-backup; a
first step in antimalware is to attempt prevention. If that fails, and
it *will*, it might then qualify as a disaster to be recovered from
depending on the malware(s) encountered.
Disaster recovery is caused by malware among other things, therefore not
seperate. The first step is be ready for a quick clean recovery. Then
try to prevent which is impossible even for the greatest of experts. If
you are not an expert malware technician, either hire one or use one of
the free services, or learn a plan that can accomplish the same thing
without anyones help and in far less time.

You are not even close to convincing me otherwise.



--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
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B

Bear

Thanks for your input, Peter. I'll probably come to the same conclusion
but I want to give Bear the chance to bend a little first. If he remains
unwilling to learn, that's very telling.
What about you. Are you willing to learn?
 
R

RayLopez99

Not to mention the possible problems from the antimalware
community for showing users how to do dangerous or otherwise, unsafe
things... Hell, I couldn't do much worse if I posted how to troubleshoot
the electrical on your microwave. Many have, it's not difficult to work
on in most cases, but it can kill you dead should you touch the wrong
components.. So, for safety, somebody else can take the risk.. It won't
be me.
Sounds like an urban legend, akin to touching TV vacuum tubes and being electrocuted to death. Not that I am dying to find out.

As for the antimalware community hassling you, seems like that stalker guy/gal from the anonymous remailer is one of them who is pissed at you Dustbin. Is that somebody whose system you ruined with your malware writing or a jilted lover?

RL
 
B

Bear

Sounds like an urban legend, akin to touching TV vacuum tubes and
being electrocuted to death. Not that I am dying to find out.

As for the antimalware community hassling you, seems like that stalker
guy/gal from the anonymous remailer is one of them who is pissed at
you Dustbin. Is that somebody whose system you ruined with your
malware writing or a jilted lover?

RL
I suppose you shouldn't teach people how to drive...the most dangerous
thing anyone on the planet can do. You can always hire an 'expert' and
let them kill you.

--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
P

p-0^0-h the cat

I suppose you shouldn't teach people how to drive...the most dangerous
thing anyone on the planet can do.
Yep, kicking vials of nitro glycerine pails by comparison.
 
F

FromTheRafters

The Magnetron operates on high voltage, it needs the E-Field and the
H-Field to cause the needed oscillation.
Sounds like an urban legend, akin to touching TV vacuum tubes and being electrocuted to death.
The Cathode Ray Tube (CRT) from a television can hold a lethal charge.
It can even rebuild a lesser charge after having been discharged.
 
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B

Bear

The Magnetron operates on high voltage, it needs the E-Field and the
H-Field to cause the needed oscillation.


The Cathode Ray Tube (CRT) from a television can hold a lethal charge.
It can even rebuild a lesser charge after having been discharged.
Most all capacitors have the capability to store and discharge once
grounded. All cars have the ability to crash.
 
D

Dustin

Sounds like an urban legend, akin to touching TV vacuum tubes and
being electrocuted to death. Not that I am dying to find out.
an urban legend? Okay..

Here's the thing. your average 1000-1200watt 120volt ac driven Microwave
has the following typical components:

An electronics board to turn the magnetron off/on (It doesn't have a
real power option. I know your microwave has 10+, it's timing!)
controlled via a relay on the board.

This relay powers the high voltage system that actually generates the
microwaves. Your typical small magnetron requires 5000volts DC at 1.5+
ampers. That's achieved via step up transformer. You feed it 120volts AC
in, it generates nearly 3000 or so volts AC out at nearly 3amps average.
An HV diode usually connected on one end to the capacitor and the other
to the chassis turns the 3000 or so AC into 5000+DC at 1.5+ ampers with
a square wave. That has a very real potential of killing you if you come
in contact with it while energized or even when unplugged due to the HV
capacitor required to assist the High voltage transformer.

No urban myth.

The magnetron itself can also be dangerous due to radiation leakage if
repairs are done improperly. That's no myth either.

You're a ****ing idiot.
 
B

Bear

It has nothing to do with being grounded but the plates of a capacitor
being joined via a path of lower resistance. The discharge time is a
function of that resistance where the discharge rate increases as the
resistance decreases.
Put your hand or finger close to one and see what happens...you become a
ground....might even fall to the ground dead.

--
Bear
http://bearware.info
The real Bear's header path is:
news.sunsite.dk!dotsrc.org!filter.dotsrc.org!news.dotsrc.org!not-for-
mail
 
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D

Dustin

Put your hand or finger close to one and see what happens...you
become a ground....might even fall to the ground dead.
you become ground? What? You completed a circuit if touching both
terminals. No ground required if you do that.

The description I provided for the circuit is a half wave rectifer. It
nearly doubles the output power. Say the step up transformer jumps your
120volts AC in to 2500ac. Well, when the diode and cap are finished;
it's 5000volts DC with amps! It's not something you want to short out,
or contact while powered up/down unless it's off, unplugged and
discharged beforehand.

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/micfaq.htm#micmicgenc

Includes a typical schematic common in most small microwaves...
 

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