Using UPS without data cable and software

[C.M. Burns]

Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software
System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7

I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering
about the consequences of not using the USB data cable
and accompanying software.

Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally
goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my
computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if
the power goes off for an extended period of time, I
can easily shut it down manually.

Thanks for your input.

 

[mike]

Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software
System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7

I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering
about the consequences of not using the USB data cable
and accompanying software.

Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally
goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my
computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if
the power goes off for an extended period of time, I
can easily shut it down manually.

Thanks for your input.

There's published statistical data that suggests that
if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely
to be out longer than even the best ups can handle.

If it's always attended, just start saving current work.
Wait 30 seconds for the power
to come back, then start shutting it down.

 

[VanguardLH]

Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software
System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7

I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering
about the consequences of not using the USB data cable
and accompanying software.

Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally
goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my
computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if
the power goes off for an extended period of time, I
can easily shut it down manually.

Thanks for your input.

The consequence would be the UPS receives no feedback from the computer
or the operating system. No user preferences could be configured.
Bascially the UPS becomes a simple battery backup: when it can no longer
maintain its output voltage, WHAM, your computer is powered off. There
is no graceful exit of applications and shutdown of the OS. You prolong
how long before the power cord gets yanked out of your computer.

Despite journaling afforded by the NTFS system and other recovery
mechanisms afforded by the OS for non-graceful (catastrophic) shutdown,
I have still seen problems with data and configurations get corrupted
due to slamming the computer down. That document you were working on
may not have a usable temp backup (if it creates one and if you
understand how to use it on the app's restart). The e-mail program may
begin redownloading all e-mails that you received today, or its database
gets corrupted and you're doing restores from your backups. Changes
you've made in your current Windows session to your desktop are lost
when the OS gets slammed down.

So why are you averse to using the USB cable and installing their
monitoring software?

 

[VanguardLH]

There's published statistical data

Please elaborate. This sounds like nothing more than poorly and
corrupted multiply redirected rumour that "they" said something that
you don't remember who they were, when they said it, on what they were
talking about, or anything else relevant.

that suggests that if the power is out for more than a few seconds,
it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle.

You don't buy a UPS and expect it to work forever just like the day you
got it. It has batteries. Batteries wear out. They reduce in
capacity over time or may simply no longer charge at all. Plan on a
3-5 year replacement schedule for the batteries in your UPS depending
on size and type of the batteries inside.

 

[Paul]

Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software
System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7

I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering
about the consequences of not using the USB data cable
and accompanying software.

Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally
goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my
computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if
the power goes off for an extended period of time, I
can easily shut it down manually.

Thanks for your input.

The interface on a UPS, is to enable a "controlled" shutdown
of a single connected computer. The UPS sends some kind of
signal, which the UPS software on the computer end interprets
as a request to shutdown. Doing an orderly shutdown of the
computer, in an unattended situation, helps prevent file
system corruption.

The connection, is for the benefit of the computer. The UPS
doesn't care.

The UPS does not rely on that connection, for proper operation.
A UPS may be used for electrical loads which are not computers
(like running a single light bulb). In fact, in some countries,
that is a main reason for owning one - some countries have
regular blackout patterns, and the people there use the UPS
to run the lights until the utility comes back hours later.
So not connecting that USB cable to something, doesn't prevent
the power management functions internal to the UPS from working.
The UPS should shut off the output anyway, when the battery is
run down to a certain level.

Paul

 

[mike]

Please elaborate.

I'm far too lazy to try to look it up just because you choose not to
believe it.
Believe it, don't believe it, I don't care. The only thing that matters
to me is that I believe it and it is consistent with my personal experience.
You asked for input; you got it. I really don't care whether you
use the input.

This sounds like nothing more than poorly and

corrupted multiply redirected rumour that "they" said something that
you don't remember who they were, when they said it, on what they were
talking about, or anything else relevant.


You don't buy a UPS and expect it to work forever just like the day you
got it. It has batteries. Batteries wear out. They reduce in
capacity over time or may simply no longer charge at all. Plan on a
3-5 year replacement schedule for the batteries in your UPS depending
on size and type of the batteries inside.

Your point, exactly?

I merely said, that for your stated objective == continuously monitored
by a human, you have plenty of time to shut it down manually in the
unlikely event that the power is out for more than a few seconds.
If you believe the statistics, you'd start shutting down within a minute
of power outage...cause it ain't coming back soon...
YMMV

If you DO leave the computer unattended, you need to restate what you
actually mean...if you expect relevant responses.

 

[mike]

mike wrote:

certs.lbl.gov/pdf/55718.pdf

 

[VanguardLH]

I'm far too lazy to try to look it up just because you choose not to
believe it.
Believe it, don't believe it, I don't care. The only thing that matters
to me is that I believe it and it is consistent with my personal experience.
You asked for input; you got it. I really don't care whether you
use the input.

This sounds like nothing more than poorly and
Your point, exactly?

My point was that your reply said NOTHING relevant to the OP. Just why
won't the UPS manage a several-second outage? Who know and nobody will
know based on your "they said" rumor. So everyone that sees your reply
has to guess as to what might've been the cause for the failure to cover
a power outage by the UPS. My guess was the batteries were old and
weak. Just as good a guess for cause as anyone else's based on your
nebulous claim.

If this has happened to you where the UPS would not cover for a few
seconds for a power outage then perhaps you might know the cause of your
particular circumstance. Were the batteries weak? How old were they?
How long since the last full power cycling of them? Do you have a true
UPS or merely a SPS the vendor claimed was a UPS? Did you severely
underrate your UPS so it could never provide more than a few seconds on
battery power during an outage? Did you calculate what load the UPS had
to handle and for how long? After that, did you keep adding more
devices to load the UPS beyond your original calculation? Was it a full
moon?

You don't want to show anything about the so-called "published"
information and you give absolutely no real information as to why UPSes
can't be trusted to provide coverage for more than a few seconds (which
means they can't be trusted at all since no OS gracefully shuts down
that fast).

 

[VanguardLH]

certs.lbl.gov/pdf/55718.pdf

"if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely
to be out longer than even the best ups can handle."

So perhaps I understood your statement incorrectly. Rather than
denounce the abilities of a UPS for backup power, it seems you are
saying that either the outage will be a few seconds or it will last for
hours (and longer than a "best" UPS can cover the outage). Okay, but
that apparently is regional since outages in my area are either
momentary (perhaps less than a second) or they are for many minutes up
to maybe an hour. Rarely do we get outages that last more than a couple
hours or are days long (and in that case a huge area has been hit). In
those cases, we're more concerned about barring unneccessary visits to
the fridge so we don't lose our refridgerated foods.

You can certainly purchase a UPS that can last for many hours to cover
just your system case and the monitor (and nothing else, like powered
speakers, printers, scanners, and other peripherals). Some folks even
get gas-powered generators to have power that covers an outage lasting
for several days (depends on the fuel supply). For a home user, yeah,
they might only go for a UPS that lasts them a couple hours versus a
hospital that needs a far longer lasting setup but then only few outages
would outlast that UPS but the home user can still get a "best" UPS that
lasts for many hours. Best always equates to price and there was no
restriction on price in your or the OP's posts, so "best" goes as high
as the technology allows - and that's a long time.

Typically consumers buy very underpowered UPS. That's because they
never bother to compute how long the UPS will keep their system up along
with not willing to pay the price for that long uptime. They go cheap,
just like they do with PSUs when they build their own. Getting an 18kVA
unit would let you continue using your computer for probably around 10
hours. Some users, however, are looking to use a UPS just for data
integrity by letting the OS gracefully shutdown. A UPS for that task
only needs to keep the computer powered for a few minutes during an
outage. If your area gets hit with stuttering outages (it's out, comes
back, goes out again, goes out, back on, and repeats) then you probably
want a UPS that will work over several stutters (so your host doesn't
bounce after the UPS has been drained).

"out longer than even the best ups can handle". That all depends on
just what backup power setup you have. The "best" could be an extremely
huge backup power system and even include a gas-powered generator and a
huge fuel tank. When you said "best", you left open-ended your argument
because "best" is dictated by the users needs and their wallet.

From the article you gave, "From a customer¢s perspective, electricity
reliability problems come in a variety of forms. Interruptions or
outages during which voltage drops to near zero for periods of time
ranging from a few seconds to several hours are the most visible
problems and affect the widest range of electricity-consuming
equipment." Okay, but who says the "best" UPS setup can't survive a
multi-hour power outage? Even if you toss out the backup gas-powered
generator scenario, you can still get a large UPS or get those that can
be ganged together to give you 2, 5, 10 hours, or more, of backup power.
Because consumers are focused on price, they shouldn't be looking at
hours of backup power (so your argument that a power outage is a few
seconds to over hours long is irrelevant). They should be looking at
one that gives them time to close their documents and let the OS
shutdown gracefully. That size unit is within the range of their
personal finances.

Unless the user has a lot of cash (often far exceeding the cost of their
personal consumer-grade computer), they should be concerned about data
integrity rather than uptime when looking to add a UPS in their setup.
You buy more uptime and its expensive. It's cheaper to get just enough
uptime to preserve data integrity. Home users don't have the needs of
hospitals, banks, or commercial datacenters where the "best" UPS for
those needs are far beyond the financial means of end users; however,
the "best" backup power systems can keep you up for days, weeks, or
indefinitely (if you have a setup that lets you stay off the "grid").

 

[mike]

"if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely
to be out longer than even the best ups can handle."

So perhaps I understood your statement incorrectly. Rather than
denounce the abilities of a UPS for backup power, it seems you are
saying that either the outage will be a few seconds or it will last for
hours (and longer than a "best" UPS can cover the outage). Okay, but
that apparently is regional since outages in my area are either
momentary (perhaps less than a second) or they are for many minutes up
to maybe an hour. Rarely do we get outages that last more than a couple
hours or are days long (and in that case a huge area has been hit). In
those cases, we're more concerned about barring unneccessary visits to
the fridge so we don't lose our refridgerated foods.

You can certainly purchase a UPS that can last for many hours to cover
just your system case and the monitor (and nothing else, like powered
speakers, printers, scanners, and other peripherals). Some folks even
get gas-powered generators to have power that covers an outage lasting
for several days (depends on the fuel supply). For a home user, yeah,
they might only go for a UPS that lasts them a couple hours versus a
hospital that needs a far longer lasting setup but then only few outages
would outlast that UPS but the home user can still get a "best" UPS that
lasts for many hours. Best always equates to price and there was no
restriction on price in your or the OP's posts, so "best" goes as high
as the technology allows - and that's a long time.

Typically consumers buy very underpowered UPS. That's because they
never bother to compute how long the UPS will keep their system up along
with not willing to pay the price for that long uptime. They go cheap,
just like they do with PSUs when they build their own. Getting an 18kVA
unit would let you continue using your computer for probably around 10
hours. Some users, however, are looking to use a UPS just for data
integrity by letting the OS gracefully shutdown. A UPS for that task
only needs to keep the computer powered for a few minutes during an
outage. If your area gets hit with stuttering outages (it's out, comes
back, goes out again, goes out, back on, and repeats) then you probably
want a UPS that will work over several stutters (so your host doesn't
bounce after the UPS has been drained).

"out longer than even the best ups can handle". That all depends on
just what backup power setup you have. The "best" could be an extremely
huge backup power system and even include a gas-powered generator and a
huge fuel tank. When you said "best", you left open-ended your argument
because "best" is dictated by the users needs and their wallet.

From the article you gave, "From a customer¢s perspective, electricity
reliability problems come in a variety of forms. Interruptions or
outages during which voltage drops to near zero for periods of time
ranging from a few seconds to several hours are the most visible
problems and affect the widest range of electricity-consuming
equipment." Okay, but who says the "best" UPS setup can't survive a
multi-hour power outage? Even if you toss out the backup gas-powered
generator scenario, you can still get a large UPS or get those that can
be ganged together to give you 2, 5, 10 hours, or more, of backup power.
Because consumers are focused on price, they shouldn't be looking at
hours of backup power (so your argument that a power outage is a few
seconds to over hours long is irrelevant). They should be looking at
one that gives them time to close their documents and let the OS
shutdown gracefully. That size unit is within the range of their
personal finances.

Unless the user has a lot of cash (often far exceeding the cost of their
personal consumer-grade computer), they should be concerned about data
integrity rather than uptime when looking to add a UPS in their setup.
You buy more uptime and its expensive. It's cheaper to get just enough
uptime to preserve data integrity. Home users don't have the needs of
hospitals, banks, or commercial datacenters where the "best" UPS for
those needs are far beyond the financial means of end users; however,
the "best" backup power systems can keep you up for days, weeks, or
indefinitely (if you have a setup that lets you stay off the "grid").

You're getting far too hung up on the word "best". Delete that word
and concentrate on the fact that on page 39 of the referenced article,
the scatter graph demonstrates that the VAST majority of power outages
are less than 1000 cycles. Of course, there are outages that are
longer than that and still shorter than your backyard nuclear reactor
can support.

The OP claims that the computer is attended. Based on that, he should
start shutting things down as soon as the outage manifests and all will
be well.
Yes, there will be instances where the power comes back on before
the ups would have run down, but those instances are statistically
insignificant. For home users, making the UPS run time 2 or 5 or 10x as
long
improves the situation little...at great expense.

I have not stated the obvious: the run time must be at least as long
as it takes to recognize the outage plus the shutdown time.

Bottom line is...IFF the computer is attended, he doesn't need a wire
or shutdown application. If he mis-stated the "attended" scenario,
he needs to restate it, if he expects relevant input.

 

[VanguardLH]

You're getting far too hung up on the word "best". Delete that word
and concentrate on the fact that on page 39 of the referenced article,
the scatter graph demonstrates that the VAST majority of power outages
are less than 1000 cycles. Of course, there are outages that are
longer than that and still shorter than your backyard nuclear reactor
can support.

The OP claims that the computer is attended. Based on that, he should
start shutting things down as soon as the outage manifests and all will
be well.
Yes, there will be instances where the power comes back on before
the ups would have run down, but those instances are statistically
insignificant. For home users, making the UPS run time 2 or 5 or 10x as
long
improves the situation little...at great expense.

I have not stated the obvious: the run time must be at least as long
as it takes to recognize the outage plus the shutdown time.

Bottom line is...IFF the computer is attended, he doesn't need a wire
or shutdown application. If he mis-stated the "attended" scenario,
he needs to restate it, if he expects relevant input.

Okay, got you now. You're saying if the computer is attended that the
user will know of the power outage and the UPS, even one that only
covers maybe 10 minutes, would be sufficient to let the user do a proper
shutdown. Well, sounds good but when you see users shoved into panic
mode they don't always make the correct choices. Instead of shutting
down their apps and OS, they figure on working until the last second
when, WHAM, the computer is yanked away from them. Also, the assumption
is the user will know there is a power outage. If it's the middle of
the day, the lights aren't one because the room is lit by sunshine. The
user would need something else to tell them there is a power outage. A
UPS may start beeping to say it went into battery mode but, again,
that's not such a repetitive event the user automatically knows what the
beeping is about. In fact, they start looking around wondering what's
beeping rather than shutting down their host. Someone who is well
practiced in handling power outages, alerting to them, and taking
appropriate actions probably will get so nuisanced by the repetitive
practicing that they'll find a better power backup solution.

Also, while the user said the computer is attended, you know that's not
true. Everyone has to take bathroom breaks, attend meetings, go help a
coworker, take a break or do lunch, or otherwise has to physically leave
the computer while it is still running. It would be a weird scenario
where the user must always power up when they want to use the computer
and always power down whenever they are no longer within arms reach of
it.

So basically, your answer and mine (in another subthread) aren't so
different. The user wanted to know what happens without the USB cable
(which also means the monitoring software would be useless). Both of us
agree that the UPS just runs at a battery backup until it drains.
Without the cable, there would be no feedback between the UPS and
computer to have its software do a graceful shutdown. So the user
simply ends up extending the time before, WHAM, the computer got powered
off. Like you said, and if the user recognized there was a power
outage, always took the appropriate action, and always attended the
computer while is was powered up, they become the monitoring software.
I think it would be safer and easier to just plug in the USB cable and
install the monitoring software (if needed since the Windows included
UPS control will work with some UPSes).

 

[John McGaw]

The interface on a UPS, is to enable a "controlled" shutdown
of a single connected computer. The UPS sends some kind of
signal, which the UPS software on the computer end interprets
as a request to shutdown. Doing an orderly shutdown of the
computer, in an unattended situation, helps prevent file
system corruption.

The connection, is for the benefit of the computer. The UPS
doesn't care.

The UPS does not rely on that connection, for proper operation.
A UPS may be used for electrical loads which are not computers
(like running a single light bulb). In fact, in some countries,
that is a main reason for owning one - some countries have
regular blackout patterns, and the people there use the UPS
to run the lights until the utility comes back hours later.
So not connecting that USB cable to something, doesn't prevent
the power management functions internal to the UPS from working.
The UPS should shut off the output anyway, when the battery is
run down to a certain level.

Paul

Yep. I used a UPS to power a backup aerator and a single heater in my
100-gallon aquarium. The unit I had then wasn't powerful enough to run the
full-up filtration unit nor the lights nor both heaters but I figured that
a bit of help was better than none. The UPS saved my fish on a few
occasions and I found that by draping the tank in a duvet the water would
stay warm with only the single heater for quite some time.

 

[mike]

VanguardLH wrote:
snip

Also, while the user said the computer is attended, you know that's not
true.

Methinks you just want to argue.

What YOU know is not true is irrelevant.
The OP asked a question and stated that the computer WAS attended.
Not my place to dispute that. He got an answer consistent with
his STATED problem. You'll note the careful use of the acronym "IFF"
in my response.

How about I just capitulate? You're right and I'm wrong.
Can we put an end to this nit-picking?

 

[VanguardLH]

Methinks you just want to argue.

What YOU know is not true is irrelevant. The OP asked a question and
stated that the computer WAS attended. Not my place to dispute that.
He got an answer consistent with his STATED problem. You'll note the
careful use of the acronym "IFF" in my response.

"I don't leave the computer unattended". Yes, he does. There are
precepts to language. What is stated isn't necessarily perfectly true
but conveys sufficient common background experience to understand what
was meant, not was was said. Always attended just means mostly
attended and under conditions we are to assume. Unless you think the
OP is a cyborg where the computer is implanted into the OP's body, yes,
there will times when the computer is unattended. I didn't think we
really had to argue that point.

I see you chose to omit that part of my reply because it would
contravene your argument that I'm anti-mike.

How about I just capitulate? You're right and I'm wrong. Can we put an
end to this nit-picking?

I said you were wrong? In fact, I said that *I* was wrong in how I
first interpreted your statement and then adjusted my response
regarding your rather blanket response that a "best" UPS would never be
sufficient to cover power outages. Guess you didn't want to go there.
Sorry for leading you astray.

 

[philo]

Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software
System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7

I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering
about the consequences of not using the USB data cable
and accompanying software.

Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally
goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my
computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if
the power goes off for an extended period of time, I
can easily shut it down manually.

Thanks for your input.

Then there is no problem

the software is simply to safely shut the machine down if it's not being
monitored

I have five UPS's in my house-hold and none of them have any feedback to the
machine.
never had the slightest problem