UPS Advice

[Don]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

 

[Paul]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with
automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 -
$100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than running my
machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad
G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I
look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

If you go to Newegg, look through the category section for "UPS", then
do an Advanced search with no criterion specified, you'll see
a lot of UPS listed. Then, "sort" the list by "best rating". Then
look at the units, and read the customer reviews.

Generally speaking, don't buy the lowest tier of products, because
their main feature is "price competition". It doesn't mean the
average unit lasts a long time, or is trouble free.

Here is an example of something from the list.

APC BR1500LCD 1500VA 865 Watts 8 Outlets BACK-UPS $200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101067

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7VAU_R0_EN.pdf

http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500LCD&tab=models

I paid a little bit more than that, for my UPS, and I believe it is currently
seven years old and still working (I just checked the invoice).

The runtime on that unit, isn't that long, at least near its rated
power output. It would last a lot longer, if the load were lighter.
Some other model, allows connecting an extra battery, to give a
longer runtime.

Paul

 

[david]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with
automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 -
$100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than running my
machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad
G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I
look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

APC

 

[John Doe]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went
and the technician said that it was probably because the machine
was subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get
a UPS with automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for
something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR
function than running my machine in a blackout and power outages
aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend something?

Yes, I would forget about messing with a battery and just get the
voltage regulator. I believe they are typically much more reliable.
I have a cheapo APC Line-R, but I plan to pay more for a (hopefully
better) Tripp Lite LC-1200 if there is ever an indication that it is
not doing well enough. The US price for the Tripp Lite is just over
$100.

http://computers.pricegrabber.com/line-conditioners/Tripp-Lite-1200W-
87-140V-120V-60HZ-4OUTLET/m25249.html

The cheapo APC I have was only about $60, but it has only three LEDs
and of course is less functional. The more expensive Tripp Lite will
have real outlets instead of just bent metal pieces.

If the technician is correct, you will enjoy watching the LED voltage
indicators show you what is going on with your house power.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[david]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with
automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 -
$100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than running my
machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad
G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I
look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

PS: Do NOT use a voltage regulator (ferroresonant transformer) in
combination with any type of active power factor correction, either in a
UPS front end, or a power supply; they will not play nice together.
Have seen the damage that can be done on a poorly designed 15 kVA UPS
with a ferroresonant transformer in front of it (it caught on fire).

 

[John Doe]

Don rearranged some electrons to say:

PS: Do NOT use a voltage regulator (ferroresonant transformer) in
combination with any type of active power factor correction,
either in a UPS front end,

Are you seriously suggesting that the original poster is supposed to
know whether the regulator is on the front or the back end of a UPS?
Should that be specified in Tripp Lite's UPS/AVR documentation,
David?

or a power supply; they will not play nice together. Have seen
the damage that can be done on a poorly designed 15 kVA UPS with a
ferroresonant transformer in front of it (it caught on fire).

Huh? Are you suggesting that UPS/AVR combinations are a poor design?
You must be making millions on your own dazzling designs, David,
considering the fact that Tripp Lite makes many different UPS/AVR
combinations (and does very well selling them).

Please provide more clues about what you are trying to say, David.

 

[Dave]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

You'd be better off just buying a good surge suppressor. Trying to extend
the life of a power supply with a UPS system is like buying a new house just
to store your motorcycle in, because the garage you already own isn't
heated. It's a huge waste of money with no measurable benefit.

First problem, you won't find anything decent for less than $200. You could
buy two or three decent power supplies for that price, if you shop
carefully. Second problem is, the batteries won't last as long as a decent
power supply will.

You'll probably end up spending many hundreds of dollars on UPS units over
the next decade. (because it will be cheaper to buy new than replace
batteries) Or, you can buy a power supply or two. Your choice, I know
where I'd spend my money though. -Dave

 

[Don]

You'd be better off just buying a good surge suppressor. Trying to extend
the life of a power supply with a UPS system is like buying a new house
just
to store your motorcycle in, because the garage you already own isn't
heated. It's a huge waste of money with no measurable benefit.

First problem, you won't find anything decent for less than $200. You
could
buy two or three decent power supplies for that price, if you shop
carefully. Second problem is, the batteries won't last as long as a
decent
power supply will.

You'll probably end up spending many hundreds of dollars on UPS units over
the next decade. (because it will be cheaper to buy new than replace
batteries) Or, you can buy a power supply or two. Your choice, I know
where I'd spend my money though. -Dave

I was wondering about that. I now have a good quality 550 watt power supply
whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's lower power
output, it was no Wal-Mart special. Would having a larger capacity power
supply last longer under the conditions described in this post? I don't
think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This community has
undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and the electric
utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed infrastructure
improvements.

 

[Dave]

I was wondering about that. I now have a good quality 550 watt power supply
whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's lower power
output, it was no Wal-Mart special.
Would having a larger capacity power
supply last longer under the conditions described in this post? I don't
think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This community has
undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and the electric
utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed infrastructure
improvements.

OK, IMHO, your power supply failure was probably unrelated to your
electrical utility issues. Power supplies fail. GOOD quality, brand name
power supplies fail. Having input A/C be rock-solid stable at a certain
voltage and frequency is no guarantee that your power supply is going to
last a long time.

Could brown-outs have caused your power supply to fail EARLIER? Possibly.

But capacity (550 vs. 350) is not going to make a difference. Both will run
at the same output level, when driving YOUR hardware. Efficiency will make
a difference, though. That is, if your 350W was unrated for efficiency, but
the new one is 85% efficient, that means that it will be running cooler.
That not only saves electricity, but is likely to extend the life of the
power supply, regardless of input voltage "issues".

Bad news is, last I checked anyway, there were no really good power supplies
being made in the ~550W range. Just average quality to slightly better than
average but still not too exciting quality. Power supply manufactures seem
to be focusing quality improvements in units rated at 650W or more (usually
much more).

OK, I'm rambling. I think the best you can do is, exactly what you've done.
But do NOT leave your computer running 24/7 as some people do. There is
nothing wrong with that necessarily. But in your case, it will expose the
computer to more brownouts. OH, and make sure that the computer is running
off a power strip or (preferably) surge suppressor with a power switch.
When the computer is not in use, turn power off at the surge suppressor so
that the power supply is not getting A/C current at all, even if the power
supply is "OFF". Modern power supplies are never off unless they have no
input current. So killing power to the power supply when not in use will
(in your case anyway) probably extend the life of it a bit. -Dave

 

[Flasherly]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

I get brownouts a lot, lightning flashes that slamdunk the computer,
or seven hurricanes in a summer that leave me with nothing more than a
waterbed to keep cool, near the equator, while utilities are
restored. I know people who have watched great balls of lightning,
call "fireballs", come through the door to visit and roll across the
floor. When people have asked me to replace a PS, I try to get the top
of the pile for their money. Local stores, such Walmart I'd
practically consider at the bottom. $100 is about what I paid for my
personal PS. The very best reviewed PS I could subject myself to. I
bought it in a box from the very cheapest provider with assurances the
factory seal wasn't broken or the warranty invalidated. I also
insisted they first check inventory stock first, covering every angle,
whereupon they told me there was one left in the bathtub. Guess that
was meant to be, so I bought it 5 years ago: SPARKLE. Average-sized,
except it's extremely packed and dense and weighs in like a brick. I
should nickname it Uriah Faber.

 

[david]

Are you seriously suggesting that the original poster is supposed to
know whether the regulator is on the front or the back end of a UPS?
Should that be specified in Tripp Lite's UPS/AVR documentation, David?


Huh? Are you suggesting that UPS/AVR combinations are a poor design? You
must be making millions on your own dazzling designs, David, considering
the fact that Tripp Lite makes many different UPS/AVR combinations (and
does very well selling them).

Please provide more clues about what you are trying to say, David.

Obviously you don't know anything about ferroresonant transformers.

 

[John Doe]

John Doe rearranged some electrons to say:


Obviously you don't know anything about ferroresonant
transformers.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit?

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

My Belkin backup supply/surge protector actually caused surge related
problems!

Really -- two completely different F6H375 backup power/surge
protection units from two different manufacturers. I had everything
plugged into them except the laser printer, but whenever the laser
turned on, the surge from it got into the Belkin's power control
circuitry and made it reset and briefly turn off the power. That
could have been prevented if they had been built with AC line filters
to block the surges, but all they had were three MOVs to clamp
excessive voltages. I added line filters, and the laser no longer
caused reboots. I also tested three different model APC/Conext
backups/protectors, each which contained a line filter, and they also
had no problems with the laser. Fortunately Belkin has quit selling
this type of product.

I'd stick with APC or Tripplite, which design their own products and
sell mostly big units to the commercial market. I don't know about
CyberPower, but they also design their products, including models that
are certified for use in hospitals (requires meeting higher safety
standards), so they may be good, too.

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

I now have a good quality 550 watt power supply
whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's lower power
output, it was no Wal-Mart special. Would having a larger capacity power
supply last longer under the conditions described in this post? I don't
think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This community has
undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and the electric
utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed infrastructure
improvements.

What 550W do you have now, and what 350W did you have before? Higher
power ratings don't necessarily mean better quality, and sometimes
they don't even mean higher power capacity (I have old 300W Deltas
that look more substantial than newer 400-500W units of other makes).
And for power supplies of decent design, the biggest factor for
lifespan may be the quality of the electrolytic capacitors -- look at
all the old Antec TruePowers that failed before their 3-year
warranties expired because their Fuhjyyu capacitors blew. It's
possible that your 350W failed because of that and not because of
brownouts because computer PSUs for the North American market are
almost always designed to work at 100VAC. What's the voltage in your
house? A $25 Kill-A-Watt can tell you that and things like power
consumption, energy consumption, amps, and power factor.

 

[westom]

 Would having a larger capacity power supply last longer under the
conditions described in this post?  I don't think this voltage issue is
going to last for ever.

To sell power supplies that are missing essential functions, get
layman to promote price and power as the only solutions.

Most common reasons for power supply failure are manufacturing
defects. Did your tech open the dead body to identify a defective
part? I do. Supply failures often involve parts completely unrelated
to and well isolated from AC mains. Most computer techs do not even
know how electricity works. Electrical knowledge is not even required
to become an A+ Certified computer tech. But will often blame the
"usual suspects".

More power and dollars do not mean a better supply. All supplies
must work perfectly fine and happy even when lights dim to less than
40% intensity. One industry spec is blunt about this operation. The
phrase is "No Damage Region".

So make a supply last even longer, some supplies include a part to
prolong low voltage on power up. And still those without electrical
knowledge can promote brownouts as destructive.

Also foolish are recommendations for a surge protector. Protectors
do nothing (and connect computer directly to AC mains) when voltages
are below 300 volts. Your tech 'claims' failure is due to voltages
below 120 volts. Why would a surge protector help? Just another
example of the many who know because that is the popular urban myth.

Is the power supply sufficient? One technique to dump supplies into
a market of electrically naive computer techs? Provide no numeric
specs. Specifications do not mean a power supply is sufficient. But,
so that the electrically knowledgeable cannot identify a defective
supply, the manufacturer must 'forget' to provide written numeric
specs with the supply.

Many supplies marketed to computer assemblers do not even meet UL or
FCC specs. But look who they are marketing to? Some who fix
computers do not even have basic electrical knowledge which is why so
many inferior power supplies are hyped only on dollars and watts.

 

[Paul]

westom wrote:

Remember, I said this k00^^atic would show up ...
I think he has a script set up to autosearch Usenet for anything related
to "power supply", "UPS", "surge suppression", "ground" (or "earth" for
the Brits) and such.

You can set up "Google alerts" to send you email, when your
favorite keywords are mentioned. Great for stalking etc.

http://www.google.ca/alerts?hl=en

Paul

 

[westom]

Remember, I said this k00^^atic would show up ...

Posting insults proves intelligence? Those who know power by doing
it (not just repairing it) know the only useful protection is
earthed. How often were your designs required to take direct
lightning strikes and never hiccup. But that was not discussed
because it was not relevant to the OPs question. Why are you
posting? Are you also so wacko as to recommend a surge protector
for brownout protection?

We do agree on the various power anomalies. However your numbers
are to tight. Greater voltage variations are completely acceptable to
electronics. Do not cause failures. Then, when we provide those spec
numbers to technicians (which you are), we narrow them. Your numbers
would be the dated values. But again, low voltage does not harm
electronics.

Obviously a larger supply would not solve the OPs problem. Where do
you answre that OP's question? A bigger supply (more power) is not a
better supply. Others recommended a protector for brownouts - which
would do nothing. Are you recommending a protector to protect from
brownouts? Are you also that ignorantly trained. Or just taking cheap
shots.

Why do you troll newsgroups to post on anything electric? Oh. You
reply only to things you better understand. Then we are same. Its
makes you as kooky as I. We both saw a discussion on power supplies
(UPSes). I came to help the OP - to post on the technicals - to
challenge obvious myths posted by others. Why are you here? Did you
troll these newsgroups waiting to attack others? Or to help the OP?

Your summary of electrical anomalies, for the most part, is correct.
If you have a problem with what was posted, then challenge the
technicals. If you are a technician and responsible, then you posted
the technical conundrums. Your choice. Stick to the facts and be
helpful to the OP. Or mask technical ignorance by taking cheap
shots. For the most part, your previous post was chain of vague
'could bes'.

The OP's "technician said that it was probably because the
machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage." Low voltage does not harm properly
designed power supplies. But when so many are so technically ignorant
as to recommend a surge protector for brownout protection, well, as
you said, there are many inferior supplies dumped in the market. With
so many electrically ignorant computer 'experts', then the market is
ripe for scam supplies. Where do you agree or disagree?

If you are the kook, you also recommend a protector for low voltage
protection. What are you? Another cheap shot artist or someone who
helps the OP. Who answers the OPs questions. The kook says low
voltages will damage a supply. He knows because he feels is it true.
Are you also so ill trained as to agree? Or do you know that many if
not most failures are traceable to component failure. Manufacturing
defects that appear months or years later. Not created by low
voltage.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit?

That's w_tom's (westom's) stock-in-trade...

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Its
makes you as kooky as I.

Yeah, you're kooky alright w_twat. You can't claim any credibility if
you won't declare your much-vaunted training and qualifications, much
less post insults from behind the anonymity of a nym on Google Groups
then run away like a little kid when you get the inevitable spanking.

There's no point in trying to lick nobody's arse to get him on side; he
can see straight through you, as so many others have done in the past.

Do you recall a recent thread in demon.tech.pc, where you completely
misinterpreted my reply to jasee in your haste to post a rebuttal?
Where you suggested that I had told jasee to buy a replacement UPS when
I had done no such thing? Isn't it odd that you disappeared after that
posting?

In that same thread I asked you some questions; you know, the ones where
I predicted you would go quiet and disappear when asked? These
questions?

from "Bud~":

Still never answered - embarrassing questions:

- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?

- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?

- Why does the IEEE guide say in one example "the only effective way of
protecting the equipment is to use a multiport protector"?

- In the IEEE example how would a service panel suppressor provide any
protection?

- Why does SquareD say "electronic equipment may need additional
protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use."

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

from me:

"You've claimed this on many occasions over many years [to work for a
"PSU shop"] but have never posted any evidence when challenged, for
example your claim that you have a degree. When challenged to provide
evidence of same (by anybody), you've invariably gone quiet or reverted
to personal attacks."

And this one (odd how my prediction came true, isn't it?)

"Explain how [to measure ripple voltage with a multimeter] in words of
one syllable, with numbers. (You won't, of course; you'll run away like
you usually do when challenged.)"

And this one?

"And how exactly do you put the PSU of a non-booting PC under maximum
load?"

And a new one?

"Can we please have a formal definition of a "computer grade" UPS?"

And another?

"Why are you unable to comprehend simple English, let alone write it?"

<fx: tumbleweed>

As I've said many a time: "If anyone engages with w_tom and contradicts
him, his modus operandi is to start deliberately misquoting them, then
lying outright to defend his peculiar idée fixes and profitable pastime
selling whole-house earthing solutions." Your response illustrates that
perfectly.

You're still ignoring the questions that Bud and I have put to you many
times. Why are you too scared to answer them? Could it possibly be
because you're a dishonest, mendacious liar?

 

[John Doe]

Tom (or whatever his name is) is a wart on USENET.

Maybe he was connected to a surge suppressor as a child, and it didn't
work.