upgrade, replace or clean heatsink?

[Thufir Hawat]

I'm considering upgrading my hardware. A few months back I did what I
could to clean up the heatsink for the CPU, but the dust is pretty caked
up and I had a forced shutdown the other day. The primary requirement
for this machine is to run Netbeans, which it sorta does for small
projects. However, compiling a large number of classes pegs the CPU,
prompting the overheating.

My inclination is to have another go at the heatsink, perhaps even
immersing it in alcohol to loosen up the caked on dust? Beyond that, I'm
considering:

more system memory
new motherboard, CPU and heatsink
just a new heatsink
just a new CPU
a graphics card


The system just isn't sufficient for GNOME + Netbeans + compiling; it
barely runs the IDE at all. What would be more helpful for the general
"snappier" response, system RAM or a graphics card? The CPU rarely pegs
out, and I don't really care if it's slow to compile so long as there are
no overheating problems.

I'm a bit leery of screwing up the heatsink, but I was considering
actually submersing it this time, and then re-applying the thermal
grease. However, I wonder whether, at that point, if it wouldn't just be
better to replace it. But, if I replace the heatsink, mightn't I upgrade
other parts at the same time? I've had the computer for a few years now
and keep expecting components to die, so wouldn't want to throw good
money after bad.



thanks,

Thufir

mb: SiS-661GX
cpu: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.13GHz
ram: 512MiB (max: 2GB)

 

[smithdoerr]

I'm considering upgrading my hardware. A few months back I did what I
could to clean up the heatsink for the CPU, but the dust is pretty caked
up and I had a forced shutdown the other day. The primary requirement
for this machine is to run Netbeans, which it sorta does for small
projects. However, compiling a large number of classes pegs the CPU,
prompting the overheating.

My inclination is to have another go at the heatsink, perhaps even
immersing it in alcohol to loosen up the caked on dust? Beyond that, I'm
considering:

more system memory
new motherboard, CPU and heatsink
just a new heatsink
just a new CPU
a graphics card


The system just isn't sufficient for GNOME + Netbeans + compiling; it
barely runs the IDE at all. What would be more helpful for the general
"snappier" response, system RAM or a graphics card? The CPU rarely pegs
out, and I don't really care if it's slow to compile so long as there are
no overheating problems.

I'm a bit leery of screwing up the heatsink, but I was considering
actually submersing it this time, and then re-applying the thermal
grease. However, I wonder whether, at that point, if it wouldn't just be
better to replace it. But, if I replace the heatsink, mightn't I upgrade
other parts at the same time? I've had the computer for a few years now
and keep expecting components to die, so wouldn't want to throw good
money after bad.



thanks,

Thufir

mb: SiS-661GX
cpu: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.13GHz
ram: 512MiB (max: 2GB)

Don't know about immersing the fan on the heatsink. Is it removable?

Looking at Newegg.com I see they have heatsinks starting at $9 so I guess if
you ruin it you can always get another.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...150086&cm_re=heatsinks-_-35-150-086-_-Product

They also have ones that are nicer that will fit more socket types if you
want to splurge a little and then reuse it in a future system.

 

[Thufir Hawat]

As far as picking the pace up on your compiling, cpu and memory are
going to have more effect that a new graphics card. You can pick up a
used Pentium4 ~3.0GHz for less than $20, so getting rid of the Celeron
seems like a good idea.

I was thinking the graphics card because Linux GNOME, and by extension
the IDE, are painfully slow. I didn't really realize how bad it was
until I installed Linux on another system. I'm not sure whether the
snappier (?) response was more due to RAM, graphics card or what. The
responsiveness is the biggest usability factor.

In and of itself, slow compiling times just give me a chance to think
things over


-Thufir

 

[Thufir Hawat]

Don't know about immersing the fan on the heatsink. Is it removable?

Looking at Newegg.com I see they have heatsinks starting at $9 so I
guess if you ruin it you can always get another.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?

Item=N82E16835150086&cm_re=heatsinks-_-35-150-086-_-Product

I'll look into that later, but at that price I might just replace the
heat sink! I thought they were like $70.

Removing the heat sink to clean it the first time around was a bit
daunting, I kept thinking I'd break the tabs on the mb or something,
unfortunately I'm not very mechanically inclined. How do you ensure that
the parts fit together, with the right sort of tabs and so forth?


-Thufir

 

[smithdoerr]

Item=N82E16835150086&cm_re=heatsinks-_-35-150-086-_-Product

I'll look into that later, but at that price I might just replace the
heat sink! I thought they were like $70.

They make ones that expensive but you can get a really nice copper
heatsink/fan for around $40. You shouldn't ever need anything better than
that unless you're an overclocker or your computer is in a place that gets
very warm.

Removing the heat sink to clean it the first time around was a bit
daunting, I kept thinking I'd break the tabs on the mb or something,
unfortunately I'm not very mechanically inclined. How do you ensure that
the parts fit together, with the right sort of tabs and so forth?

You'll need to get one that is compatible with your cpu. The one linked to
above is compatible with:

Intel:
Pentium 4 3.06 GHz (Prescott)
Pentium 4 3.2 GHz (Willamette / HT Northwood)
Celeron D 3.2 GHz (350)
Celeron 2.8 GHz (FC-PGA2)

Some companies will also make adapters so their heatsinks are compatible
with newer motherboards.

When shopping on Newegg you can search by cpu or socket type.

 

[Thufir]

That's an appropriate disposition for a mentat.  By the way, you've got
something on your chin there...

Oh, just some juice from the sapho



only a fledgling mentat,

Thufir

 

[Thufir]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?

Item=N82E16835150086&cm_re=heatsinks-_-35-150-086-_-Product [...]
How do you ensure that
the parts fit together, with the right sort of tabs and so forth?

You'll need to get one that is compatible with your cpu.  The one linked to
above is compatible with:

Intel:
Pentium 4 3.06 GHz (Prescott)
Pentium 4 3.2 GHz (Willamette / HT Northwood)
Celeron D 3.2 GHz (350)
Celeron 2.8 GHz (FC-PGA2)

Some companies will also make adapters so their heatsinks are compatible
with newer motherboards.

When shopping on Newegg you can search by cpu or socket type.

The MASSCOOL 9T288B1M3G 70mm Ball CPU Cooler is of type:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_478 yes?

Looking at:

http://www.techpowerup.com/printarticle.php?id=134

this actually seems relatively doable. I think I'll leave the CPU in
the socket.


-Thufir

 

[Thufir]

At any rate, the upshot is that I think it's worth trying to clean up
the current unit.  If that goes sideways, you can always pick up another
unit cheaply.

[...]

By unit, you mean the mean the heatsink?

Also, what's the best way to get better performance from the window
manager (GNOME) and IDE so that there's a faster response? A video
card wouldn't help with that?


-Thufir

 

[smithdoerr]

The MASSCOOL 9T288B1M3G 70mm Ball CPU Cooler is of type:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_478 yes?

Yes. I found it by looking to see what socket your motherboard had and then
searched for socket 478 heatsinks on newegg.
Here's the other socket 478 ones they have:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...DeactivatedMark=False&Order=PRICE&PageSize=20

Looking at:

http://www.techpowerup.com/printarticle.php?id=134

this actually seems relatively doable. I think I'll leave the CPU in
the socket.

That's the way to do it. Newegg sells thermal grease too.

 

[Paul]

At any rate, the upshot is that I think it's worth trying to clean up
the current unit. If that goes sideways, you can always pick up another
unit cheaply.

[...]

By unit, you mean the mean the heatsink?

Yes, that's right, unit = heatsink + fan

Also, what's the best way to get better performance from the window
manager (GNOME) and IDE so that there's a faster response? A video
card wouldn't help with that?

There's a limit to how much a bigger video card can help. If you have
anywhere near a contemporary video card, adding more memory, and more 3d
capabilities, is not going to help gnome.

As far as optimizing gnome for performance, I would have to go look for
a guide before I could even guess how to answer that.

I think Thufir is using 661GX integrated video and the VGA connector
on the back of his motherboard.

With an AGP video card (like say a 6200 for about $40), that might
be slightly improved upon. The 6200 even has both a VGA and DVI
connector, for usage with modern LCD monitors. It's not a
card for 3D gaming, but it is likely better than a 661GX,
because it isn't UMA. They may not make these for much longer.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130465

Paul

 

[Thufir Hawat]

Also, it seems that AGP cards have fallen to the iffier manufacturers.

Reliability isn't of particular concern, personally.

Does it matter whether it's 64bit or 32bit? Everything else is 32 bit.



-Thufir

 

[Paul]

Reliability isn't of particular concern, personally.

Does it matter whether it's 64bit or 32bit? Everything else is 32 bit.



-Thufir

On video cards, the bit width refers to the width of the memory array.
In this case, it's a 64 bit wide memory made from DDR2 chips (cheap).

Array widths vary from say, about 32 bits (a sideport memory), up to
perhaps 512 bits (high end gamer card memory). It gives a measure
of available memory bandwidth. That particular number is not
affected by the choice of OS (Windows/Linux/32bit/64bit etc).
It has nothing to do with instruction execution. The memory
array is "private" to the GPU.

The clock rate of the memory is also a factor. and the product of
clock rate times array width, gives the memory bandwidth available.
On the extremely wide memories, the memory is actually accessed as four
different banks, so you would find four different transactions
going on at the same time to the memory.

For bandwidth numbers, look in the "Mem BW" column here.

http://www.gpureview.com/videocards.php

GeForce 6200 AGP NV43 nVidia 300 275 8.8 <---

A bandwidth of 8.8GB/sec is pretty low, but that bandwidth would
hopefully be higher than what is available to the 661GX. The
GTX480 gamer card is 177GB/sec for comparison. My old ATI 9800 Pro AGP
(which would be fine if you could find one for sale) was 21.76GB/sec,
which is a little bit higher than the 6200. The difference is, you
can still buy the 6200. My 9800 Pro had a fan and draws more power
than a 6200 would.

There are more modern AGP cards (bridged designs using Rialto or
HSI bridge chips), but then the issue is drivers (at least in Windows).
Perhaps if you have a recent Linux distro, something more modern
would also be an option.

Your motherboard can use AGP or PCI video cards, but the AGP card
would have 1066MB/sec slot bandwidth (communications rate between
processor/memory and GPU), versus only 133MB/sec for PCI. You don't
want a PCI video card. I own one, and it is painfully slow for
pixmap updates.

As far as I know, there won't be an issue with the AGp card slot.
AGP slots are keyed to prevent voltage mismatches. Your board should
support 4X cards, and I don't expect it'll have a problem fitting
a card. The 6200 is universal as far as I know. More info on that
is available here. I look at the picture of the card in Newegg
photos first, verify it has two slots cut in the edge, and that
makes the "Universal AGP 3.0 Card" one.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

NVIDIA GeForce 6200 Universal 1.5V AGP 3.0 Card or
Universal AGP 3.0 Card

SiS661 Universal 1.5V AGP 3.0 Motherboard

Paul

 

[Paul]

On 9/27/2010 6:35 PM, Thufir wrote:
[...]
At any rate, the upshot is that I think it's worth trying to clean up
the current unit. If that goes sideways, you can always pick up
another
unit cheaply.
[...]

By unit, you mean the mean the heatsink?

Yes, that's right, unit = heatsink + fan

Also, what's the best way to get better performance from the window
manager (GNOME) and IDE so that there's a faster response? A video
card wouldn't help with that?

There's a limit to how much a bigger video card can help. If you have
anywhere near a contemporary video card, adding more memory, and more
3d capabilities, is not going to help gnome.

As far as optimizing gnome for performance, I would have to go look
for a guide before I could even guess how to answer that.

I think Thufir is using 661GX integrated video and the VGA connector
on the back of his motherboard.

With an AGP video card (like say a 6200 for about $40), that might
be slightly improved upon. The 6200 even has both a VGA and DVI
connector, for usage with modern LCD monitors. It's not a
card for 3D gaming, but it is likely better than a 661GX,
because it isn't UMA. They may not make these for much longer.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130465

Also, it seems that AGP cards have fallen to the iffier manufacturers. I
see that you picked out an EVGA card, what's your experience been with
them?

I may have one EVGA here, and it was OK. When you're down in the $40 range,
virtually any of the manufacturers could put bad caps on their card. To prevent
getting suckered, I'd go by whether the reviews are clean or not. One of the
other cards got a higher rating, but it only has a VGA connector on it.
I think it's worth the risk, to take the second best card, and get two
connectors.

Paul

 

[Thufir Hawat]

You'll need to get one that is compatible with your cpu. The one linked
to above is compatible with:

Intel:
Pentium 4 3.06 GHz (Prescott)
Pentium 4 3.2 GHz (Willamette / HT Northwood) Celeron D 3.2 GHz (350)
Celeron 2.8 GHz (FC-PGA2)

I'm looking at:

used Pentium 4 2.53GHz 512KB 533MHz SL6S2 478 pin Northwood CPU
http://www.ecrater.com/p/8029893/pentium-4-253ghz-512kb-533mhz-sl6s2-478


besides the 478 pin, does anything else matter, like the bus? The mobo
is, I think:

http://cht.sis.com/products/sis661gx.htm



thanks,

Thufir

 

[Paul]

I'm looking at:

used Pentium 4 2.53GHz 512KB 533MHz SL6S2 478 pin Northwood CPU
http://www.ecrater.com/p/8029893/pentium-4-253ghz-512kb-533mhz-sl6s2-478


besides the 478 pin, does anything else matter, like the bus? The mobo
is, I think:

http://cht.sis.com/products/sis661gx.htm



thanks,

Thufir

The page you reference on the SIS site, is for the Northbridge chip.
The motherboard name may be related to the Northbridge, but is likely
to have a slightly different name than that.

The motherboard name, may be printed on the surface of the motherboard,
in white letters.

An exception to the rule, is some old PC Chips motherboards. Some of
those are completely devoid of useful markings.

You need the motherboard name, to check the CPU compatibility chart.
Or, get whatever information is available for the motherboard.

You can look for a BIOS ID string, when the BIOS starts up. It may
be printed on the first screen. You can press "Pause", so you'll
have enough time to copy the text string. It's quite long.
Then, use a search engine, to look up the string and get a
motherboard name that way.

You can also try popular utilities, such as "Belarc Advisor" to
get more info. Before pasting the output of Belarc, into a USENET
message, remove any sensitive information, such as the license key
for your OS. Belarc puts that in the report, and it should be removed.

Once you dig up some info, you'll have a better idea what
the name of the motherboard is, and maybe we can find a CPU
support chart for it.

I don't expect you will have a problem using that CPU, but
try to get as much information before the purchase, as is possible.

I can get some motherboard names, from here, using one of the three
661GX entries in the chipset selector. So there are a bunch of different
boards that use that chipset. The boards are divided into three
sets, because they use different Southbridge chips (963 and 964 types).
This is not a complete listing, but it helps when you're looking
for suggestions.

http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/

Paul

 

[Thufir Hawat]

You can look for a BIOS ID string, when the BIOS starts up. It may be
printed on the first screen. You can press "Pause", so you'll have
enough time to copy the text string. It's quite long. Then, use a search
engine, to look up the string and get a motherboard name that way.

5/9/2005-SiS-661GX-6A7I4E1AC-00

is that the BIOS string? I found some info and will look more later.


-Thufir

 

[GMAN]

5/9/2005-SiS-661GX-6A7I4E1AC-00

is that the BIOS string? I found some info and will look more later.


-Thufir

Motherboard made by

ECS (Elitegroup)


http://www.ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/index.aspx?MenuID=0&LanID=9

 

[Paul]

5/9/2005-SiS-661GX-6A7I4E1AC-00

is that the BIOS string? I found some info and will look more later.


-Thufir

The closest I could find so far, is

http://es.kioskea.net/forum/affich-353893-adaptador-fast-ethernet-compatible-drivers

"Propiedades del motherboard:
Identificación del motherboard 05/19/2005-SiS-661GX-6A7I4E1AC-00
Nombre del motherboard ECS 661GX-M

which is ECS 661GX-M. I don't know if GMAN agrees or not.

http://www.ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/Pr...x?DetailID=505&CategoryID=1&MenuID=18&LanID=9

There is a CPU chart on there. And this processor is in the listing.

Socket 478 Intel Pentium 4 (Northwood) 2.53 GHz 533MHz 512K YES

There is only one BIOS file available for download. I downloaded
this, so I could look through it with a hex editor. And
it does look like the ID string in it is 05/19/2005-SiS-661GX-6A7I4E1AC-00.

http://download.ecsusa.com/dlfileecs/bios/mb/p4/661GX-M/GXM519.exe

When you download the file, since it is Award, you can try splitawd utility,
to break it into individual modules. Or, since all you need to see in
this case is the GXM519.bin module, 7-ZIP can burrow down and get that
one (but not the rest). If you use splitawd, followed by 7zip, you get

GXM519.BIN <--- has 05/19/2005 in it, visible with hex editor
ACPITBL.BIN
AwardBmp.bmp
awardext.rom
awardeyt.rom
SATA105.ROM

The SATA module appears to support RAID, and the picture of the motherboard
doesn't show a SATA port. So that part was a bit weird.

The picture isn't very good, but you might compare it to your motherboard.

http://www.ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/images/Products/small/661gx-ms.jpg

Paul

 

[Thufir Hawat]

The picture isn't very good, but you might compare it to your
motherboard.

http://www.ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/images/Products/small/661gx-ms.jpg

Yes, I think that's it. I'll compare it, and again look through the ECS
website.


thanks,

Thufir

 

[Thufir Hawat]

http://www.ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/Product/Product_Detail.aspx? DetailID=505&CategoryID=1&MenuID=18&LanID=9

There is a CPU chart on there. And this processor is in the listing.

Socket 478 Intel Pentium 4 (Northwood) 2.53 GHz 533MHz 512K
YES

I appreciate your help, and everyone helped me here. I'm reasonably
certain this is my motherboard, and now know not to throw out the
documentation in the future

It's useful to know that the FSB is 533MHz, and so forth. I'm sure that
this motherboards best days are behind it, but now I have an upgrade path.


thanks again,

Thufir