Underwhelm by VS2005

[CMM]

I just really had high expectations for this release. A fellow developer
that I work with made sense of it... Microsoft has virtually ZERO
competition in the desktop development arena (Win32). But they have much
resistance in the web app arena. This is why ASP.NET has matured by leaps
and bounds and WinForms seems stuck in the VB3 Windows 3.1 days.

 

[Peter Franks]

Excel: MDI (that very badly mimics an SDI interface)

Should read:

Excel: ??? (wretched turd of an unusable interface)

 

[CMM]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think Excel is unbelievably useful... and
for the most part its UI is straightforward... albeit nothing extraordinary
(it basically hasn't evolved at all since 1994). I just hate its BS SDI
implementation. So many times I click the X on the upper-right hand of the
window only to find that I have closed every Workbook open on my desktop! It
LITERALLY is a Windows.Classic MDI app masquerading as an SDI app (Word on
the other hand gets it right).

 

[Peter Franks]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think Excel is unbelievably useful... and
for the most part its UI is straightforward... albeit nothing extraordinary
(it basically hasn't evolved at all since 1994). I just hate its BS SDI
implementation. So many times I click the X on the upper-right hand of the
window only to find that I have closed every Workbook open on my desktop! It
LITERALLY is a Windows.Classic MDI app masquerading as an SDI app (Word on
the other hand gets it right).

Dude, it is a wretched document interface. Have you tried a
side-by-side comparison? Completely unusable except for the most
trivial comparisons.

I think Excel is a piece of junk.

MS + no competition = garbage.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

I don't really want the "place of a button" that I have been using for what
seems like the last 10 years to change without at least having the ability
to put it back to where it was. It's like putting the button for the Lobby
in my elevator all the way at the top.

It might seem like a minor issue... but, really it's just an indication of a
"downhill" decline of an application. While VS 2002 and 2003 seem to have
been developed with a reverence for the IDE's of years past (and an
improvement on them), the loock and feel of VS 2005 seems to have been done
using the multitude of horrible Java IDE's as a template (complete with non
standard and ugly toolbox tabs that seem to have been developed by a junior
programmer instead of a GUI graphics expert).

Whereas to my mind, the pity is that they didn't take *more* from the
utterly outstanding Java IDEs which are available. You know, more
actually *useful* features such as more comprehensive refactoring,
better navigation, the "organise imports" feature of Eclipse, unit
testing nicely integrated into *free* IDEs rather than only the "top
tier" ones, etc.

 

[BobF]

Whereas to my mind, the pity is that they didn't take *more* from the
utterly outstanding Java IDEs which are available. You know, more
actually *useful* features such as more comprehensive refactoring,
better navigation, the "organise imports" feature of Eclipse, unit
testing nicely integrated into *free* IDEs rather than only the "top
tier" ones, etc.

Just give it time. We'll all be using OS IDE's and paying for "support"
instead of tools.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Just give it time. We'll all be using OS IDE's and paying for "support"
instead of tools.

I've never paid anything for support in Eclipse, which I've been using
for several years now. I dare say there are some people who do (and
there are some who pay for some plugins, as we may well do in order to
use Team System from Eclipse) but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

(The Eclipse support is excellent, in fact. I've reported various bugs
or feature requests, and often had them fixed/implemented by the next
milestone release.)

I wonder how many people who use Apache have ever had to pay for
support?

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Jon,

Sorry, I had a smile on my face

(The Eclipse support is excellent, in fact. I've reported various bugs
or feature requests, and often had them fixed/implemented by the next
milestone release.)

Cor

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Sorry, I had a smile on my face

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. It's certainly
something which *doesn't* occur with VS.NET - and that's definitely not
because the same level of bugs/scope for feature requests isn't
present!

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. It's certainly
something which *doesn't* occur with VS.NET - and that's definitely not
because the same level of bugs/scope for feature requests isn't
present!

You know that I can not give any opinion about that. However, the way you
described it gave me the idea that it is an enormous amount (probably not
true). Therefore I had to smile, friendly of course and only positive.



Cor

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Whereas to my mind, the pity is that they didn't take *more* from the
utterly outstanding Java IDEs which are available. You know, more
actually *useful* features such as more comprehensive refactoring,
better navigation, the "organise imports" feature of Eclipse, unit
testing nicely integrated into *free* IDEs rather than only the "top
tier" ones, etc.

Mhm... Microsoft employees who spent hours in developing VS.NET have
families etc. and need to earn money! I believe it's completely legitimate
to sell enterprise editions for professional use for money instead of giving
them away for free. It's incredibly hard to get good support, even
commercial support, for open source products and products which are
available for free, because the manufacturers often offer support for their
commercially available editions only. Well, it's not only Microsoft who
needs to earn money to bring things forward.

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

I wonder how many people who use Apache have ever had to pay for
support?

When comparing the high number of patches for Apache to those available for
IIS6, using the commercially availabe product might be less costly than
using the "free" product including "free" support.

 

[Guest]

JS [Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:57:47 -0000]:

I wonder how many people who use Apache have ever had to pay for support?

If your business model is based on that, I'm
sure Apache hopes many will. When you give
away the binary and you give away the source
code -- wait, that's a business model? There's
a trick or two in there somewhere. Gottabe.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Mhm... Microsoft employees who spent hours in developing VS.NET have
families etc. and need to earn money! I believe it's completely legitimate
to sell enterprise editions for professional use for money instead of giving
them away for free. It's incredibly hard to get good support, even
commercial support, for open source products and products which are
available for free, because the manufacturers often offer support for their
commercially available editions only.

My experience with Eclipse is otherwise - and likewise for other Open
Source products. My general experience with Open Source software is
that the support is excellent. There are exceptions, of course, just as
there are with commercial software. The difference is that if the Open
Source software needs a change, I may well be able to make the change
myself - something which has happened a few times.

Well, it's not only Microsoft who
needs to earn money to bring things forward.

Sure. I have no objection to MS selling VS.NET. I just wish they could
make it a better IDE than the free ones available for Java.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

When comparing the high number of patches for Apache to those available for
IIS6, using the commercially availabe product might be less costly than
using the "free" product including "free" support.

That's the way open source tends to work - plenty of patches fixing
problems in a timely manner, rather than hoping no-one will start
abusing holes before the next big service pack.

The patches are generally easy to install though...

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

JS [Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:57:47 -0000]:

I wonder how many people who use Apache have ever had to pay for support?

If your business model is based on that, I'm
sure Apache hopes many will. When you give
away the binary and you give away the source
code -- wait, that's a business model? There's
a trick or two in there somewhere. Gottabe.

No - Apache just isn't a business (or at least, isn't primarily a
business). The point of giving Apache away wasn't to make money - it
was to improve the general quality of the web server.

Basically, a bunch of admins who had no interest in selling web servers
all improved the same codebase, and decided to bundle all these patches
together - hence the name, "A patchy server". And so Apache was born...

When you have no interest in making money from a change you've made -
you've made it to scratch your own itch - why not give it away to help
other people? (I've done likewise with a few projects, including Ant
and EasyMock.NET.)

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

You know that I can not give any opinion about that. However, the way you
described it gave me the idea that it is an enormous amount (probably not
true). Therefore I had to smile, friendly of course and only positive.

There haven't been *very* many - probably about 10 in all. Enough to
count as "various". The important thing is that usually within a couple
of months, there's been a build with a fix in. How many people could
say that about VS?

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Jon,

Sure. I have no objection to MS selling VS.NET. I just wish they could
make it a better IDE than the free ones available for Java.

Regulars here know how you make programs and what you like and not.

A lot of effort in VS is in by instance the Visual part and for VB Net
especial the debugger and the background compilation plus of course the
integrated WebDesign and code behind.

Is your opinion that Eclipse is better in those things than VS as well?

Cor

 

[Guest]

Why not sell it to help other people. This way you
can stick around and keep on keeping on. If you
give it away, you give (it) up -- and nearly all who
do, do just that. Hopefully, someone else will take
it on for the next year or so, and so on it goes.
I can tell you the reason -- because it's a lot easier
to give something away than to sell it. haha

JS- [Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:23:28 -0000]:

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

A lot of effort in VS is in by instance the Visual part and for VB Net
especial the debugger and the background compilation plus of course the
integrated WebDesign and code behind.

You forgot another important point:

VS supports VB.NET, Ecplise doesn't. This is a big plus for VS .