To All Microsoft MVP's: (and others)

[Ron P]

I first want to thank all of you MVP contributors for helping the
technically challanged souls among us who would be totally lost without
your dedicated support.
I also want to ask another question: I presume you guys are volunteers and
not paid support reps from Microsoft. If that's true I thank you all the
more for offering us your time and your knowledge. I benefited from your
timely help on several occasions.

But from reading hundreds of user's problems on this board it also tells me
that Microsoft's products sometimes have glitches and errors that cause
users considerable problems. (eg., Service Pack 2).
If you generous folks are providing your expertise here without fee, then my
concern is that Microsoft is getting a 'free ride'. Shouldn't they be
required to further test the bugs in their system for crashablility,
conflicting with other software, or security holes a bit more thoroughly
'before' they release it to the public? While we'd be lost without your
kind support newsgroups, aren't you bailing out M.S. by doing damage
control for their damaged products?
I've seen angry users her speak of the need to launch class-action suits
against Microsoft for their errant products. Others say they get away with
it because people are 'reluctant to switch to alternate operating systems'.
To add insult to injury Microsoft does not seem to open their tech lines to
live support--except for certain issues-- to help consumers who experience
maddening flaws in M.S. products. Unless you have a credit card at the
ready.
(and yes, sometimes it's user's ignorance, but sometimes it is a flawed
product)

In short, I want to reiterate my appreciation to you guys for being there
for us. But I also feel like Microsoft may have a pretty sweet deal here:
Instead of accepting liability for the faults in their programs they have a
voluntary, unpaid group who run interference by providing front line support
to annoyed consumers.

Is Bill Gates getting a free ride here?
Does Microsoft and it's vast Empire owe a bit more to it's loyal public?

In my observations they do owe more. But nothing forces them to meet that
standard of commitment.

......And that's my humble opinion

 

[Harry Ohrn]

| I first want to thank all of you MVP contributors for helping the
| technically challanged souls among us who would be totally lost without
| your dedicated support.
| I also want to ask another question: I presume you guys are volunteers and
| not paid support reps from Microsoft. If that's true I thank you all the
| more for offering us your time and your knowledge. I benefited from your
| timely help on several occasions.
|
| But from reading hundreds of user's problems on this board it also tells
me
| that Microsoft's products sometimes have glitches and errors that cause
| users considerable problems. (eg., Service Pack 2).
| If you generous folks are providing your expertise here without fee, then
my
| concern is that Microsoft is getting a 'free ride'. Shouldn't they be
| required to further test the bugs in their system for crashablility,
| conflicting with other software, or security holes a bit more thoroughly
| 'before' they release it to the public? While we'd be lost without your
| kind support newsgroups, aren't you bailing out M.S. by doing damage
| control for their damaged products?
| I've seen angry users her speak of the need to launch class-action suits
| against Microsoft for their errant products. Others say they get away with
| it because people are 'reluctant to switch to alternate operating
systems'.
| To add insult to injury Microsoft does not seem to open their tech lines
to
| live support--except for certain issues-- to help consumers who experience
| maddening flaws in M.S. products. Unless you have a credit card at the
| ready.
| (and yes, sometimes it's user's ignorance, but sometimes it is a flawed
| product)
|
| In short, I want to reiterate my appreciation to you guys for being there
| for us. But I also feel like Microsoft may have a pretty sweet deal here:
| Instead of accepting liability for the faults in their programs they have
a
| voluntary, unpaid group who run interference by providing front line
support
| to annoyed consumers.
|
| Is Bill Gates getting a free ride here?
| Does Microsoft and it's vast Empire owe a bit more to it's loyal public?
|
| In my observations they do owe more. But nothing forces them to meet
that
| standard of commitment.
|
| .....And that's my humble opinion
|


Ron you care correct that MVPs are volunteers. You can learn more about the
program here

To state that one is "humble" suggest that one is willing to learn so I am
offering the following with that in mind.

You ask about testing a product before it is released to the general public.
You should be aware that Microsoft puts all of their products through
rigorous testing prior to release. SP2 was tested for many, many months
before it was released. Testing is done both internally and externally
through a pool of beta testers. Beta testers are located all over the world.
There are literally hundreds of these volunteers. Some are IS/IT
professionals and systems builders and others are average home users. Ages
vary from early teens to seniors. The systems used are as varied as the user
pool. I was personally involved in testing SP2 from start to finish. In my
experience I personally did not have any problems at all with SP2 and tested
it on 3 different systems. However there were others who did have problems
all the way along. When a beta tester finds "bugs" they submit a report to
Microsoft. The bug includes as much detail as the tester can provide
including information about their system specs and installed software. The
tester also shares this information in private betanews groups to see if
other testers can reproduce the bug. Microsoft attempts to reproduce the
bug. If a bug can be reproduced and fixed it is identified as having been
fixed and the report is closed. This process goes on an on. Microsoft
creates a new build on a daily bases and tests those internally and then
periodically releases interim build to beta testers. This is an extensive
process. Personally I've been beta testing since Windows 98 and have filed
hundreds and hundreds of bug reports. Some were fixed and closed and some
could not be reproduced.

There are hundreds of different hardware configurations. There are thousands
of software applications. There is an undecipherable number of unique system
configurations if one factors in hardware and software combinations. Then
one adds in spyware, system tweaks and hacks, overclocking, poorly coded
software, etc. Finally new code in the form of an update or patch gets added
to the stew. These are often downloaded over transmission lines that could
be subject to spikes and kicks and weak signals and so forth. Add to that
the proliferation of hackers and crackers and virus creators and malicious
coders - the vandals, thieves and terrorists of the electronic world - one
has to marvel that computers can operate at all.

As for other operating systems being superior to Windows well that could
well be true. However having used most distros of Linux and Macintosh OS
I've found that they too have their problems. Nothing is perfect.

 

[Enkidu]

See my comments inline.

Cheers,

Cliff

{MVP Directory Services}

I first want to thank all of you MVP contributors for helping the
technically challanged souls among us who would be totally lost without
your dedicated support.

I also want to ask another question: I presume you guys are volunteers and
not paid support reps from Microsoft. If that's true I thank you all the
more for offering us your time and your knowledge. I benefited from your
timely help on several occasions.

Thanks for your thanks! I'm MVP but not in the WinXP area. MVPs ARE
volunteers, but there are certain benefits to being MVP (such as
access to some of the internal Microsoft facilities), and a few
personal benefits too. MVPs are not paid, but Microsoft puts a LOT of
time and effort and expense into the MVP network.

But from reading hundreds of user's problems on this board it also tells me
that Microsoft's products sometimes have glitches and errors that cause
users considerable problems. (eg., Service Pack 2).

Mmm, that's a perception thing. If you want to find people with
problems visit the newsgroups. You rarely get people here who
*haven't* had problems but it doesn't follow that *everyone* has
problems. For instance I've *never* had an install of SP2 go bad on
me.

I think that the apparent level of problems is probably up on previous
SPs, but there are many more people installing the SPs these days. I
recall one SP for NT which was notorious in its time.

If you generous folks are providing your expertise here without fee, then my
concern is that Microsoft is getting a 'free ride'. Shouldn't they be
required to further test the bugs in their system for crashablility,
conflicting with other software, or security holes a bit more thoroughly
'before' they release it to the public? While we'd be lost without your
kind support newsgroups, aren't you bailing out M.S. by doing damage
control for their damaged products?

No. In 9999 cases out of 10000 SP2 has no problems. Fixing bugs is the
easy part. Discovering the bugs is the hard part. Microsoft cannot
physically test all combination of software and hardware. To do so
would be VERY expensive and could probably double the costs to
Microsoft of the SP, and remember, you don't have to pay for it.

In the 70's and 80's I worked on IBM mainframes. IBM's flagship
operating system MVS had 2 million lines and 2 million estimated bugs.
IBM provided tapes on a monthly basis with thousands of fixes. And you
had to PAY for the fixes!

I've seen angry users her speak of the need to launch class-action suits
against Microsoft for their errant products. Others say they get away with
it because people are 'reluctant to switch to alternate operating systems'.
To add insult to injury Microsoft does not seem to open their tech lines to
live support--except for certain issues-- to help consumers who experience
maddening flaws in M.S. products. Unless you have a credit card at the
ready.
(and yes, sometimes it's user's ignorance, but sometimes it is a flawed
product)

In my opinion, class action suits of this sort are doomed. Microsoft
always recommend backups before any software or hardware change, and
they DO do extensive program checking before releasing software. Also
the beta testing program also helps.

In short, I want to reiterate my appreciation to you guys for being there
for us. But I also feel like Microsoft may have a pretty sweet deal here:
Instead of accepting liability for the faults in their programs they have a
voluntary, unpaid group who run interference by providing front line support
to annoyed consumers.

It's impossible to spot all bugs in a program, even a short one. They
provide a fault reporting system, and they provide a way to easily to
get free fixes. A lot of the questions I see here can be addressed by
accessing the Microsoft Knowledge Base (which anyone can do) and
following the instructions there.

Is Bill Gates getting a free ride here?
Does Microsoft and it's vast Empire owe a bit more to it's loyal public?

In my observations they do owe more. But nothing forces them to meet that
standard of commitment.

.....And that's my humble opinion

Sorry, but you are wide of the mark.

Cheers,

Cliff

 

[Ron P]

To Harry and Enkidu,

Thank you for providing such a thorough and candid response. It helps me
recognize that user's conflicts in certain MS products may be the result of
issues 'other than' than Microsoft products themselves.
I wish everyone who feels angry at Gate's 'selfish empire' would read this
and open their minds to the possibility that MS simply can't detect all
possible software glitches before they release their products.
You two MVP's who responded to my question sound sincere and well motivated.
I would invite anyone who has a different opinion (and can back it up with
something more than just a general bashing of M.S.) to state your own
experience here.
As to Harry and Enkido, I want to re-express my gratitude for your valuable
and competent support to these newsgroups. I know many people rely on you
and are equally grateful for your comittment.

Cheers, Ron

 

[Ron P]

You're welcome Harry.

RonP

Thanks Ron 8^)

--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell/User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp

To Harry and Enkidu,

Thank you for providing such a thorough and candid response. It helps me
recognize that user's conflicts in certain MS products may be the result
of
issues 'other than' than Microsoft products themselves.
I wish everyone who feels angry at Gate's 'selfish empire' would read this
and open their minds to the possibility that MS simply can't detect all
possible software glitches before they release their products.
You two MVP's who responded to my question sound sincere and well
motivated.
I would invite anyone who has a different opinion (and can back it up with
something more than just a general bashing of M.S.) to state your own
experience here.
As to Harry and Enkido, I want to re-express my gratitude for your
valuable
and competent support to these newsgroups. I know many people rely on you
and are equally grateful for your comittment.

Cheers, Ron

tells
me lines
to

 

[choro-nik]

BTW, what does MVP stand for?

I follow these NGs on "news.blueyonder.co.uk" but there was another ?server?
that carried these Microsoft groups and which I could download via
blueyonder. I'll be damned if I remember. Anybody else using blueyonder out
there who can help jog my memory?

 

[Bruce Hagen]

Most Valued Professional.

All non-paid volunteers to help you and others.

See this link, and co-links:
http://dts-l.org/index.html

 

[Gordon]

BTW, what does MVP stand for?

I follow these NGs on "news.blueyonder.co.uk" but there was another ?server?
that carried these Microsoft groups and which I could download via
blueyonder. I'll be damned if I remember. Anybody else using blueyonder out
there who can help jog my memory?

msnews.microsoft.com

 

[Locksley O. Young]

Testing.....

msnews.microsoft.com