Thailand floods and Seagate HD prices

  • Thread starter Percival P. Cassidy
  • Start date
A

Arno

Ed Light said:
On 11/4/2011 11:03 AM, Arno wrote:
The WD RE drives have extra anti-vibration, anti-shock measures in them.
Some kind of active sensing and compensation. The 500 GB one, according
to newegg user reviews, has an unusally good record for almost no
lemons. Maybe because of less platters than the bigger ones.

Ah, yes. For stacks of disks not well decoupled that may
be an additional factor. Vibration should not kill a drive
and merely make it slow (With FDBs, with ball-bearings I
can well imagine vibration shortening bearing life).

Still, all this is a gradual improvement. The most important
factor remain the following:

- good cooling
- good mounting
- clean power
- effective monitoring (SMART and in high-reliability
scenarios, individual disk performance)
- regular surface and RAID array consitenty checks

If you mess up in any of these aspects, no "RAID" drive
will compensate for it. Of course RE drives operated wrongly
are more reliable than consumer drives operated wrongly.

Arno
 
A

Arno

GMAN said:
GMAN said:
On 4/11/2011 5:04 AM, GMAN wrote: [...]
That was not my point. My point was that desktop drives can take sometimes as
long as 2 minutes to retry and correct week or bad sectors. Usually this
amount of time is enough for most hardware or software raid systems to throw
up a fit and mark the drive bad and insist that it be removed from the array.


I have been running several RAID1 and RAID 5/6 arrays on consumer-grade
disks 24/7 for about 10 years now. The only issues I ever had
are that about 1-2 times a year the last 3-4 years (running
in IDE and SATA 2.5" notebook disks), a disk drops out of the
array(s) and becomes completely unresponsive. That happens with
Seagate, Samsung and WD drives and I have not been able to identify
a pattern. It is not a kernel issue (this is Linux software
RAID), as the drive stays unresponsive until power-cycled.
Then it comes back cleanly, no errors, no SMART error log
entries and hot-plugs fine.

My take is that if you have a dumb hardware controller (most are
pretty dumb) or it is hard to get to the individual drives,
these "RAID" drives may be worth the extra money, otherwise they
probably are not. Side note: Because of the disks dropping out,
I run 3-way RAID1 or RAID6, so I have time to reactivate
the locked-up drive at my leisure as the arrays are still
redundant.

Arno
Thats my exact point. Drives should not just drop out of a raid array for
no reason.

It is a cost trade-off. Is is cheaper to have to do a manual reset
around once every 18 months per drive or is it cheaper to get the
more expensive drives. And how fast do you have to do the manyal
reset. Depends entirely on the situation.

Also note that I never had this effect with 3.5" drives.

Arno
 
A

Arno

Ed Light said:
On 11/4/2011 11:21 AM, GMAN wrote:
Some of those drives in there will break on regular SATA power as they
use lower power. Specifically at least some "EAVS" drives.

Aeh, what? That does not make any sense. As long as the voltages
are correct (and they will be) power use of a drive can never
be too low, only too high.
I could not get WD to tell me what voltage is supposed to go to what
pin. I suppose it could be measured off the feed in the enclosure.

Have a look into the SATA standard. It is clearly and
unambiguously stated there. Or look at the
Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA

Arno
 
A

Arno

GMAN said:
The drives in the WD 2TB Elements drives are the standard WD20EARX 3.5"
Green desktop drives.


Right on the drive they say
5VDC 0.70A
12VDC 0.55A
Acually last christmas, they were in many of the elements cases, they were
supplying the WD black 7200RPM versions of the 2TB drive since they had a
shortage of the green drives in the later part of 2010..
I have read that about the EAVS drives and the 5v issue. That sounds a
little fishy to me because if they claim SATA II compliance, they must
operate within the specs layed out by the standards set.

This "problem" sounds very much like an urban myth to me. I do not think
there is any such issue. Also I have an EAVS drive taken from its casing
that has been running fine for about 1.5 years. The other standard
drive I put into the enclosure also works fine.

Got any reference?

Arno
 
A

Arno

Ed Light said:
On 11/4/2011 11:09 PM, GMAN wrote:
Any idea what the voltage inputs are?

See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA

item "Cables, connectors, and ports". It also guives
the staggering (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st makes connection first).
Most (all?) drives do not need 3.3V.

Note that they may not put an "SATA" logo on the drive
if it does not conform to the standard.

I think something different was the issue and somebody
without basic EE knowledge cooked up a fantasy
explanation.

Arno
 
E

Ed Light

Sounds like BS to me. Got a reference?

It is on this page:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/250867-32-wd10eavs-disk-performance

and quoted here:

wowowlogist 08-09-2010 at 09:21:21 AM
- 0 +

I can say this: DANGEROUS PRODUCT

This is ofcourse for the WD10EAVS 8mb cache version. Got one OEM from
Fry's $54 bucks Sun. sale - died the NEXT day (controller no - nothing,
boot, read, even show up in ANY OS) - brought it back - exchanged (no
refund because it is an OEM drive, even from Frys' of all things) - Next
disk had a serial number roughly +1500 from the first one - installed it
- copied about 250GB of video to it - it died, same exact thing as the
first one. headed back to Fry's - got another one - this one was
-17000ish serial numbers (so from an earlier batch if the serials are
sequential from low to high) - copied data to it and whammo next boot -
it died. Brought that one back and got another - this time from a diff
Fry's (being in the south bay there are like 4 within 10 min. of each
other :) - and you guessed it - DEAD as a mackeral in a salmon feeding
frenzy the next day. - sooooooo - after emailing WD support they want me
to send the drive back to them and they will check it out and swap me
ANOTHER one.

SAD.

Well to make a looooong story short and in barking at the tele support
people I come to find out this series of drives was actually created for
USB 5v systems and has a controller that switches (supposedly) the power
from 5v / 12v depending on the input voltage receieved. Well come to
find out aslo that they are very aware that the controller malfunctions
if used as an internal normal 12v SATA connection - but due to marketing
they don't want to tell people this, instead having them return the
drives and WD then updates the controller board -

So, IMHO stay FAR clear of this product unless you plan on using it
soley as a USB driven 5v setup.


--
Ed Light

Better World News TV Channel:
http://realnews.com

Iraq Veterans Against the War and Related:
http://ivaw.org
http://couragetoresist.org
http://antiwar.com

Send spam to the FTC at
(e-mail address removed)
Thanks, robots.
 
E

Ed Light

Have a look into the SATA standard. It is clearly and
unambiguously stated there. Or look at the
Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA

WD support says that my 1TB EAVS, in a WD USB drive, is for it's USB
products only, and uses a different voltage scheme from standard SATA.

Maybe they put 5V into the 12V inputs. I don't know.
--
Ed Light

Better World News TV Channel:
http://realnews.com

Iraq Veterans Against the War and Related:
http://ivaw.org
http://couragetoresist.org
http://antiwar.com

Send spam to the FTC at
(e-mail address removed)
Thanks, robots.
 
G

GMAN

Someone bought one or more bare EAVS drives at Frys and they broke. WD
fixed them to work normally.
Thats fine and dandy, but doesnt it sound strange to make a SATA II spec drive
and then give it a nonstandard power requirement?
 
G

GMAN

See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA

item "Cables, connectors, and ports". It also guives
the staggering (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st makes connection first).
Most (all?) drives do not need 3.3V.

Note that they may not put an "SATA" logo on the drive
if it does not conform to the standard.

I think something different was the issue and somebody
without basic EE knowledge cooked up a fantasy
explanation.

Arno

Exactly what i was thinking. Sounded too fishy to me.
 
G

GMAN

This "problem" sounds very much like an urban myth to me. I do not think
there is any such issue. Also I have an EAVS drive taken from its casing
that has been running fine for about 1.5 years. The other standard
drive I put into the enclosure also works fine.

Got any reference?

Arno

Se Ed Light about this, he brought it up
 
E

Ed Light

A

Arno

It is on this page:

I see it. Still BS, IMO. Such a drive would simply only use the
5V connectors (as 2.5" drives do) and not do any switching.
In fact why add any switching at all? It requires an additional
voltage monitor and 2power-FETs, probably > $2 in parts at volume
prices.

My guess would be that a batch of defective or substandard drives
was put on the market though some shady channels and WD does not
want to admit that, instead giving people this stupid story.


Side note: If you put 12V into a 5V circuit, it dies immediately
and spectacularly, i.e. components exploding and smoke comming
out of it. The reason is that 1) isolation barriers fail, creating
huge currents and 2) 12V = 5V * 2.4 and power consumption goes
with the square of the voltage, i.e. power draw at 12V = 5.7 * power
draw at 5V. Trust me, I have seen the smoke. (Had a Y-cable once
that was wired wrongly. Used it to make a 1->4 cable without
checking and blew 1 12G and a 17G HDD into the afterlife. Ouch.
Fortunately my backups were good and current.)


That said, it is not completely impossible that a batch of
special design (i.e. not even OEM) drives that are
not SATA compliant did reach the market and that the
motor driver did indeed survive for some hours on 12V
while cooled and configured for 5V (they are switching
drivers these days and can take such overload for a short
time).

In this case the drives are not allowed to carry the SATA
logo and that may be one reson why WD tried to keep it quiet.

Such a design and the "switchover" comment are still BS,
as the 3 x 5V contacts in the SATA power connector
can carry up to 4.5A combined without even violating the
spec, i.e. 22.5W. That is quite enough and even for a 5V
only design there is zero need to use the 12V contacts to
carry 5V.


Again, I can see one exception: These drives were intentionally
designed to fail with a delay of minutes...hours when operated
on a normal SATA power connector, e.g. in a misguided attempt
to protect the data on them. Or if the device they were contained
in was actually cheaper than the whole drive on the normal market.
This type of modification would also require the protection diode
to be removed on the 12V line.

Again, this would be a strong reason for WD to want to keep this
quiet.

So my take is this is possible, but only by intentionial sabotage by
WD. And likely a contract violation by the person that put them on
the open market. Such drives will never reach the ordinary market
unless something goes seriously wrong. All the external 3.5" drives
I have seen (many WD among them) use 12V PSUs and would just have
the normal configuration, in particular as the special configuration
costs more to make.


For basically all intents and purposes, forget about this scenario.
Even if true, it is extremely unlike to hit you, i.e. far, far
less likely than a new drive dying of its own in the first few hours.


Arno
 
A

Arno

GMAN said:
Thats fine and dandy, but doesnt it sound strange to make a SATA II spec drive
and then give it a nonstandard power requirement?

This is not an SATA drive anymore, see my other posting. It
would be forbidden to carry the logo.

Arno
 
A

Arno

Ed Light said:
On 11/5/2011 11:24 AM, GMAN wrote:
Bare drives for the WD USB Elements series must have somehow made their
way to the store.

The Elements Seties uses 12V PSUs. The drives would not have these
problems. The only explanation would be intentionally sabotaged
drives, i.e. drives that kill themselves when attached to an ordinary
SATA power connector, see my other posting.

Maybe drives from some devices that cost less than the bare drive
would cost, WD made a very special price and then sabotaged them
so they will not be ripped out by people that want cheap drives?

Arno
 
A

Arno

Ed Light said:
On 11/5/2011 7:11 AM, Arno wrote:
WD support says that my 1TB EAVS, in a WD USB drive, is for it's USB
products only, and uses a different voltage scheme from standard SATA.

I think they are lying to you. There is no reason to do that. I have
removed 1TB, 1.5TB and 3TB WD USB drives, all have perfectly
normal power connections.
Maybe they put 5V into the 12V inputs. I don't know.

Use the schmeatic from Wikipedia and a Voltmeter and measure
on the enclosure. At worst you will kill the enclosure, but
that is unlikely.

As to 5V only, again there is no reason to do that. If the external
PSU is 12V, it is also very unlikely.

Arno
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Side note: If you put 12V into a 5V circuit, it dies immediately
and spectacularly, i.e. components exploding and smoke comming
out of it.

In the case of a modern HDD, the usual result is a shorted 5V TVS
(Transient Voltage Suppression) diode. The PSU should then shut down.

Lots of examples here:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/

- Franc Zabkar
 
F

Franc Zabkar

and quoted here:
This is ofcourse for the WD10EAVS 8mb cache version. Got one OEM from
Fry's $54 bucks Sun. sale - died the NEXT day (controller no - nothing,
boot, read, even show up in ANY OS) - brought it back - exchanged (no
refund because it is an OEM drive, even from Frys' of all things) - Next
disk had a serial number roughly +1500 from the first one - installed it
- copied about 250GB of video to it - it died, same exact thing as the
first one. headed back to Fry's - got another one - this one was
-17000ish serial numbers (so from an earlier batch if the serials are
sequential from low to high) - copied data to it and whammo next boot -
it died. Brought that one back and got another - this time from a diff
Fry's (being in the south bay there are like 4 within 10 min. of each
other :) - and you guessed it - DEAD as a mackeral in a salmon feeding
frenzy the next day. - sooooooo - after emailing WD support they want me
to send the drive back to them and they will check it out and swap me
ANOTHER one.

SAD.

Either this guy is very unlucky, or he doesn't have a clue what is
happening.
Well to make a looooong story short and in barking at the tele support
people I come to find out this series of drives was actually created for
USB 5v systems and has a controller that switches (supposedly) the power
from 5v / 12v depending on the input voltage receieved. Well come to
find out aslo that they are very aware that the controller malfunctions
if used as an internal normal 12v SATA connection ...

I agree with Arno. That's gotta be some of the most bizarre BS I've
read in a while.

Obviously the guy didn't examine the label.

5VDC x 0.70A = 3.5W
12VDC x 0.55A = 6.6W

Even if the 5V supply were converted to 12V onboard the drive, then it
would still need about 10W in total. That's 2A from 5V, assuming a
conversion efficiency of 100%.

A USB 2.0 port can deliver a maximum continuous current of 500mA at
5V, while USB 3.0 is specified for 900mA. That's a maximum power
capability of only 2.5W and 4.5W, respectively.

- Franc Zabkar
 

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