Slow Motion Jitters

[Guest]

Hi,

DV-AVI output slow motion is unwatchable, very jittery (not smooth, jumpy).
I've read and applied suggestions by PapaJohn (free space & defragging) and
still have the same problems.

I use my pc for high quality music production so are used to dealing with
24-36 tracks of large audio files. I have IATA disks and around 60 GIG's free
so speed/space is really not an issue.

The curious thing is when its plaid back in the project it's beautifully
smooth.

Any help/ideas would be much appreciated.


The curious thing is when it's plaid back in the project it's beatifully
smooth.

Any help/ideas would be much appreciated.

 

[John Kelly]

Hello there,

Can I suggest checking out the Disk Drive section of my web sites FAQ in
particular the section on DMA modes. Yours should be capable of at least DMA
Mode 5...if it shows up as PIO then that is where your problem is.

With regard to the often given advice on defragmenting your hard drive. If you
are using the utility provided in Windows XP you are basically wasting your
time...and that waste of time gets greater every time you do it. Surprised !!!
Well, its simple really....the windows defragmenter ONLY defragments the
files, it does NOTHIN to the free space. The result becomes an increasing
amount of fragmented free space, and that's exactly what you do not want. You
need a defragmenter that defragments the free space, the files and the Boot
sector files (for the C drive) One such program is Perfect Disk from
www.raxco.com. There are others but I can only talk on the one I have....and I
would not be without it. I do not know if it is still true, PerfectDisk used to
be the only program that could defragment the boot sectors.....usually you
would only need that function just once....all of my machines except one
benefited from that one option.

The reason why your preview works better than the final video may be explained
away by the following....When you captured the original File it is possible
that it was created with very few fragmented sections......you will have used
your machine for other things in the mean time as well as creating the final
video....Movie Maker creates a lot of small temporary files which are deleted
(should be) when you close Movie Maker and after compiling the final
video...each one of those temporary files can causes a non contiguous jump in
the final video file.........so when the job is done, you have a final video
file spread all over the place and defragmenting it with the windows utility
will not always actually defragment the file...as is highlited with the
analysis

So, steps to take...confirm your drives are actually transferring data at their
best speed and get a real defragmenter...you should not need to re-create your
final video....if you find that it is still jittery then it may well be the
result of a bad creation process (probably a bad codec)

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work

 

[Guest]

Hi John,

Right, firstly thanks for your indepth contribution, I didn't want to get
back to you before I tried your suggestions. First defragging, I downloaded a
trial version of PerfectDisk and did both disks (great product) it had allot
to do.

I read your content on hard disks and checked mine, one is running on Mode 2
the other on Mode 5. (so between 33-100 MB/s according to your table) They
are from different manufacturers so expected. I'm not sure how to check what
there maximum flow rate should be.

Anyway, after that I loaded up the project and created another DV-AVI, sorry
to say excatly the same not an ounce better. Which leaves us with your bad
creation process theory or codec problem which I don't understand. Maybe you
can elaborate and I can try a few tests. (don't want to take up too much of
your time on this)

Incidentally I've tried cutting the 9 minute video down to 30 seconds just
with the slow motion clips and still had the same problem. Still puzzles me
about smooth playback in project? your comments don't seem valid now after
defrag and disks being OK with respectable date flow rates.

Thanks again

 

[John Kelly]

Hello there,

Right, firstly thanks for your indepth contribution, I didn't want to get
back to you before I tried your suggestions. First defragging, I downloaded a
trial version of PerfectDisk and did both disks (great product) it had allot
to do.

Yes its always quite a shock...I would not be without it now......in particular
the offline defrag of boot files.....I keep thinking about finding out which
files it is actually defragmenting, it always makes a difference though.

I read your content on hard disks and checked mine, one is running on Mode 2
the other on Mode 5. (so between 33-100 MB/s according to your table) They
are from different manufacturers so expected. I'm not sure how to check what
there maximum flow rate should be.

Ah Ha!!! Mode 2...that's the equivalent of going back maybe 15yrs or so. If
your system/drives are less than say 10yrs then you should have Mode 5. Go
back to the FAQ on my site (Disk Drives) and select PIO or DMA from the menu
and then scan down to the paragraph starting with...Finally, we have the all
important information in front of us. Reading onwards from there will give you
the method for restoring to DMA Mode 5...you should take note in particular of
the section that tells you why it has become a mode ....its an early indication
that the flow of data is not correct (the drive may be on its way to a complete
failure) and that windows has downgraded the drive so that it will not suffer
from "time outs"

Anyway, after that I loaded up the project and created another DV-AVI, sorry
to say excatly the same not an ounce better. Which leaves us with your bad
creation process theory or codec problem which I don't understand. Maybe you
can elaborate and I can try a few tests. (don't want to take up too much of
your time on this)

Well no, your Mode 2 drive will have a major impact on the playback quality if
it is the drive that is holding your final video.....in fact any DV-AVI video
on that drive will be all the worse for it........AND, if it is your C drive it
will have a major impact on almost all operations. You should fix that before
anything else because you have no real way of isolating some other problem
whilst you are using a mode 2 drive.

Incidentally I've tried cutting the 9 minute video down to 30 seconds just
with the slow motion clips and still had the same problem. Still puzzles me
about smooth playback in project? your comments don't seem valid now after
defrag and disks being OK with respectable date flow rates.

Out of interest, how many times do you apply the slow motion effect more than 3
times is unacceptable for my tastes. MovieDV (another editor I use) does it
very well indeed but once you get to very slow motion it becomes very jerky for
want of another way to describe it.
--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work

 

[Guest]

Hi John,

So if your theory is correct I should be able to copy the .avi file to my
second disk (mode 5) and it should run OK. I did and still no change. I did
read your notes yesterday but did not want to try the installation procedure.
Your notes don't explain how to reinstall when there are two disks. I tried
to do that tonight and did not have an alternative 40 pin socket to plug it.
So I swapped the sockets of the two disks round and rebooted, that still gave
me one disk on mode 2 and the other on 5.

FYI, this PC is around 6 months old, constructed by a friend for respectable
performance as I do my music recording on it. 3ghz processor, 2GB ram and two
disks with around 110 gig of disk space. Operating XP Pro on C: with most
other things on D:.

I understand your warnings about the reduction in mode and will keep my eye
on it, thanks. I'm not sure which path to pursue now, should I try and get
the mode up to 5 or is that a red herring? On your question about number of
slow motion times, I just used a simple one time. What about the potential
Codec problems you mentioned?

Finally do you have any more thoughts about the puzzle on the picture being
perfect on playback in the project but not the output .avi. Surely it’s doing
the same amount of I/O.

I'll keep saying thanks for your effort and perseverance!

Thanks
Safi.

 

[Rehan]

Do you get this issue with WMV files or some other format AVI's as well ?
What other software is on your PC? When did you notice this jitteriness in
dv avi files? Has it ever worked properly before?

 

[John Kelly]

Hello again,

Hi John,

So if your theory is correct I should be able to copy the .avi file to my
second disk (mode 5) and it should run OK. I did and still no change. I
did
read your notes yesterday but did not want to try the installation
procedure.
Your notes don't explain how to reinstall when there are two disks. I
tried
to do that tonight and did not have an alternative 40 pin socket to plug
it.
So I swapped the sockets of the two disks round and rebooted, that still
gave
me one disk on mode 2 and the other on 5.

FYI, this PC is around 6 months old, constructed by a friend for
respectable
performance as I do my music recording on it. 3ghz processor, 2GB ram and
two
disks with around 110 gig of disk space. Operating XP Pro on C: with most
other things on D:.

You havent said whether the mode 2 drive is your C drive. The theory
about your mode 2 hard drive is based on the fact that Windows has rejected
the drive at least 3 times in the 6 months you have owned it......from 5 to
4 to 3 to 2. The drive has undergone some sort of failure or experienced
problems of am unknown type thats caused windows to downgrade the
drive....no matter what else you do you should sort that problem out.....or
forever suffer a slow speed or a complete failure sometime in the future.

I understand your warnings about the reduction in mode and will keep my
eye
on it, thanks. I'm not sure which path to pursue now, should I try and get
the mode up to 5 or is that a red herring? On your question about number
of
slow motion times, I just used a simple one time. What about the potential
Codec problems you mentioned?

I think you may be mis understanding me about the mode 2 issue...your
system has alreadyt downgraded it....its certainly not a red herring !!

With regartd to the possible codec problem, you should download DIRECTX
version 9 and The Version 9 Codec pack from Microsoft. and install
them...DirectX first....DO NOT do this as an install over the
internet....download the complete instalation....this will ensure that no
"mistakes" occur over the internet. In addition...make sure you do a reboot
prior to installing each pack...it helps by ensuring that any file lock in
use is removed

Finally do you have any more thoughts about the puzzle on the picture
being
perfect on playback in the project but not the output .avi. Surely it's
doing
the same amount of I/O.

No its not the same I/O all you ever see via Movie Maker is a preview
mode at a reduced resolution.....that will remove any slight problem in
processing speed. It does not help though as processing speed is of small
importance when you render the final video...its not time dependent....

So things to do...fix the hard drive get the DirectX and Codec packs and
install (even if you alreadt have them)

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work

 

[Guest]

Hi John,

Sorry for the delay, downloaded ActiveX and Codec from MS and installed them
both as instructed. Still no joy I'm afraid. Do you have any other idea on
how I can get the mode back up to 5? I have two disks and no spare 40 pin
connector. I swapped them around and that didn't do the trick.

I think that's what I will focus on now as I believe we've exhausted the
options.

Thanks again
Safi

 

[Guest]

Hi Rehan,

To answer your questions..

I get this with other formats not just AVI (I haven't tried all of them)

Lots of software, Cubase SX, Office a couple of sim games, nothing that has
any processes running though.

It's always been like this, I actually tried putting slow motion on many
different clips and they all do the same. Some worse then others.

Hope this helps.

Safi

 

[John Kelly]

Hello,

OK. What you should do is remove the cable from the mode 2 drive and reboot the
computer a couple of times. That causes the machine to forget about the drive.

The next step depends on whether or not you have a spare 40pin slot on the
motherboard...and I am guessing that you have not because of your CD drive
etc....You can buy an additional EIDE card (around £20 - £25) and plug that
into a spare slot if you wish, otherwise you will have to use the old cable.

Having restarted the machine a couple of times connect the cable and boot the
machine.

If it still shows as Mode 2 then there is a very real chance that the drive is
defective in some way and if I remember you said it was about 6 months
old...you have good reason to return it for a replacement. Otherwise you could
try this.........

There is a very thin chance that this will work.....You might want to consider
deleting the partition with something like PowerQuest and then remove the drive
as above, reboot and then re-connect followed by create a new primary partition
and format as NTFS etc....then check the mode again.

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work

 

[Guest]

Hi John,

You're going to hate me for this, I omitted a vital bit of information! My
disks are SATA drives. I don't know if that changes anything? Also if the
mode 2 disk is the boot disk, how will that work when I unplug it?

Thanks
Safi.

 

[John Kelly]

Hello,

Well, I asked if it was drive C a few messages back. Obviously if you unplug it
your system will not work....whether they are Serial ATA or EIDE is not all
that relevant to the matter at hand. The UDMA is what you should concentrate on
and your system is telling you that you are suffering from "Time Out" errors
(see second URL below) and as a result of that the system has downgraded the
drive to UDMA-2. Irrespective of movie maker, your entire system is running
quite a lot slower than it should be.

So, you have a choice...live with it or backup your other drive, then reformat
and install XP (Having made it Drive C) and proceed from there.

You might want to read the information at the following URL's...
http://www.serialata.org/supplementaltesttools.asp &
http://www.ata-atapi.com/sata.htm. The second one will depress you I'm
afraid.....I think you may need further help...the first URL should be your
first port of call.

Good Luck !!

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work

 

[Rehan]

1. Play the movies using Media Player Classic to eliminate if the WMP is the
cause of problems.

2. Evaluate your HD performance using HDTune (http://www.hdtune.com/). You
can compare your disk perfoamance with others to see if that is a
bottleneck.

More later

 

[Guest]

Hi Rehan,

OK, I played the movie in another product (Power DVD) came with my Sony DVD
burner and still the same. I guess you wanted to test that it wasn't WMP and
that should do it.

Downloaded HD Tune and the results are as good as if not better then the
comparables.

HD Tune: WDC WD360GD-00FNA0 Benchmark (WINDOWS BOOT)

Transfer Rate Minimum : 33.8 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Maximum : 55.0 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Average : 47.5 MB/sec
Access Time : 9.2 ms
Burst Rate : 89.5 MB/sec
CPU Usage : 3.3%


HD Tune: ST3120026AS Benchmark (DISK WITH PROJECT ON)

Transfer Rate Minimum : 29.0 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Maximum : 53.4 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Average : 44.4 MB/sec
Access Time : 12.7 ms
Burst Rate : 68.7 MB/sec
CPU Usage : 2.6%

What puzzled me though is that HD Tune said supported mode is 6 but actual
was 5 on both disks. Windows System manager says one of the disks is running
mode 2. Which do I believe?

Anway, over to you if you have any other suggestions.

Thanks
Safi

PS I couldn't get John Kelly SATA test installed as it had installation
errors.

 

[Rehan]

This seems to suggest that the main bottleneck may not be in your HD
performance although that may have some potential for further improvement.
So may be you should explore other lines of investigations too.

I would suggest you:

0. (If you already have SP2 reinstall SP2 on top of current installation).
1. update your graphics card drivers
2. reinstall DirectX 9 runtime on top of curren tinstallation
3. Install Windows Media Encoder

I think you already have done 2 so try the other two. The number 0 is
optional. Some people have reservations about it, although in my opinion it
is safe.

It may be that the problem is within the source files themselves... This
seems very unlikely as you said that you have the same problem in WMV format
files as well!!!

But anyway no harm in trying to eliminate this possibility too. problem is
source files can happen if for example your system has ended up using wrong
version of DirectShow DLLs due to various other installed or uninstalled
apps. To eliminate this possibility; run your movie in another system which
doesnt have this porblem.

Try re-registering the qdv.dll which is used by DirectShow for dv-avi
encoding. Execute the following line on Start > Run on your system

regsvr32 %windir%\system32\qdv.dll

This should result in "DLLRegister Server succeeded in qdv.dll" message.