RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?

[nobody]

Capitalism, I have heard many in the US cannot even read and write, do
not have medical insurance, you really must be pissed at Castro.

As much as you hate capitalism, you prefer to live in semi-capitalist
EU, not someplace like Cuba or N.Korea

America collapses and the rest of the world with it?

Yes, exactly, when America sneezes, the whole world goes down with
pneumonia. Guess what would happen to all the government reserves
when their piles of green go puff? Whereas here stateside, the loaf
of bread and the carton of milk will still be priced in $.

Probably the other way around, you could not afford a DVD player if it
needed to be manufactured in the US, THAT is why Ford has to cut
30000 jobs.
Where will these people go?

Yet the US unemploiment rate:5%--
EU: 10%++, and will stay that way as far as one could see, unless the
leadership recognizes that Socialism doesn't work.

America my foot.

Russia first: Sputnik
Europe first: CD
Germany first: V1 V2

US first: transistor
US first: integrated circuit
US first: x86 CPU
If not for that, this NG would be non-existing

Only way US could win from Germany in WW2 was because US could build ships
faster.

Wrong again - Germany lost to USSR, not the Allies. What the Allies
really did - they ensured that the Red Army would not roll all over
West Europe after Germany collapsed.

NNN

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Yet the US unemploiment rate:5%-- EU: 10%++, and will stay
that way as far as one could see, unless the leadership
recognizes that Socialism doesn't work.

Even if the leadership does, the people are _far_ too attached to
their jobs (as if they were property) and demanding of protection.

As a result, empployers are reluctant to hire because they
won't have flexibility to fire for cause or business downturn.
They'll do all sort of things, like encourage overtime, hire
temps, contractors, outsource, etc. to restore flexibility.

Wrong again - Germany lost to USSR, not the Allies. What the
Allies really did - they ensured that the Red Army would
not roll all over West Europe after Germany collapsed.

A very practical view.

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

On a sunny day (Tue, 24 Jan 2006 04:10:07 -0500) it happened George Macdonald
<[email protected]>:

Hi, I see my post upset you a bit perhaps.
I will address a few points to see if I can 'fix' that

The issue is; I will explain, as you (as Amercian ;-) ) clearly have no idea
what happens here in Free Europe.

Thank you for adopting and exposing the Euro redneck stance. As it happens
I know more about some parts of Europe than you do.

What happens here is that a new TV standard has come about.
Some stations are already transmitting in that standard now.

I've seen what they're getting... and what they're supposed to get. My
only question is "are they going to have TV welfare now so nobody gets
stranded in PAL-land"?

Already TODAY some of these stations (TPS) transmit in H264 in HR but still
using the old DVB-S standard.
VDR boxes can record this no problem (K6 Duron, old pentium, what not).
And will be able to record all of this NO PROBLEM (only 15 Mbits / second
per channel), I can record a whole transponder on a Duron 950.
*BUT* such a system cannot display the H264 in real time because of time
needed to decode and update display.
Then one can move to a power hungry (more later) P4 3.2GHz dual core with
high end power guzzling FX1800 video cards, sure.

But that would be a really daft solution.
You'd only need that video card to interface with HDMI HDCP to the TV.
Wrong point (again) this is the WRONG place to cut the system in pieces,
and also the wrong way to do it, as that does NOT stop a 10 year old
from buying a HDCP -> component no loss whatsoever converter box to record
stuff (but even the 10 year old knows enough not to go that way).

In one possible RIGHT way to 'cut up into boxes', the H264 decoder goes into
the TV.
Now you can make a receiver box with RJ45 (15Mbits /s), a recorder box,
crypto is taken care of (smart card in TV), so is TV over Internet.

Then the only question to be answered how does your keyboard with build in
super computer interface to the LAN?
Well, (from your point of view) *put the H264 ENCODER in the PC* (or
in the PS3, or in the keyboard with supercomputer.
So, and maybe by setting parameters in that ENCODER we can have good display
of the PC screen (desktop) on that big TV too (I have tried some, it seems
to work).
So all LAN.

This is your solution - good luck imposing it on the rest of the world.

AS to 300W is nothing, old K6 Philips (nothing to do with processors, K6
was Philips early tube color TV chassis) was also 250W or so...
Bad room heating in summer, add some power (the same or double) for
the airco to cool the place to livable temps again.... YES POWER CONSUMPTION
IS IMPORTANT,
No I am the Netherlands we have our own natural gas so I am not worried
about Russia cutting or blowing up pipes to Europe.

Nice Euro-centric attittude - better keep it quite lest Bruxelles hears
about it.

[And] we have windmills too, 2 HUGE ones up the road here, and this is a windy
place on the coast, these windmills (these are actually all over the place
here, many farmers have these here) DO pay themselves back.

The only times I've seen wind turbines, they've been err, stationary; a
farmer can set his schedule around wind blowing time; a national
electricity grid?... don't think so. "Pay themselves back"<guffaw>... only
with some pretty fancy accounting chicanery... and a neighbor country to
fill in with "dirty" power according to weather conditions. Ask the Danes
about it: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/business.cfm?id=2465442005

And we have some nuclear power.

Seems that *somebody* has some sense then.

But STILL you pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for electricity, and you pay $$$$$$$$$ again
in a warm climate for the airco to get rid of the excess heat again.

Maybe one day we have fusion power, but that has been coming for 30 years
and may well be 30 years into the future 30 years from now...

My personal view is: don't count on fusion... and I'm told that, even if
you could make it work, you end up with similar radioactive contamination
"cost". The rods left over from fission are a fraction of the cost of
decommissioning and disposing of a "hot" plant.

Things will get smaller.
The LAN, well I see it this way:
*(And you can scream and argue all you want against this idea, it WILL happen
regardless of that):
In every house there is a power outlet in every room.
(Even) in America many rooms have water....
In the same way every room in the future will have one or more of those RJ45
connectors in each room.
You just plug in the notebook upstairs, and downstairs you can select it.
The TV sat receiver can be under the attic, and plugged in there, you
control it from any other place in the house.
Man I did not buy those hundreds of meters of screened solid Ethernets cable
cause I do not believe this,, IT WORKS HERE.
Plus in the webcam in the living room, one in the hall to see through the
glass in the front door who is there if the bell rings.... Access to your
central music player from ANY room by ANYONE.... Just an other process running.

Hell people may have objected to electricity outlets, but Ethernets in
every room was what we installed (the company I worked for) in the 80ties in
every self respecting office building *when it was build!!!
No new idea.

And a lot of use the cable you installed in the 80s is now.

And none of this wireless shit source of interference, just the thought I can
walk with a little transmitter into any place and kill all their systems and
RFID tags, no: *SCREENED Ethernet cable*.
(Not even mentioning eavesdroppers, competition downloading your customer
base).

You think a little bit of screening protects you from eavesdropping?...
dream on! Oh and we in the US have lots of experience with screened coax -
the neighborhood here used to be *hot* with it before the system went
optical.

So, for what it is worth.

Capitalism, I have heard many in the US cannot even read and write, do
not have medical insurance, you really must be pissed at Castro.
America collapses and the rest of the world with it?
Probably the other way around, you could not afford a DVD player if it
needed to be manufactured in the US, THAT is why Ford has to cut
30000 jobs.
Where will these people go?

America my foot.

You need to see a doctor... fast.... or quit smoking that shit.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:47:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje


US first: transistor
US first: integrated circuit
US first: x86 CPU
If not for that, this NG would be non-existing

Wrong again - Germany lost to USSR, not the Allies. What the Allies
really did - they ensured that the Red Army would not roll all over
West Europe after Germany collapsed.

NNN

LOL
Had not IBM sold some many computers to Germany not so many Jews would have
been killed.
See the logic?

The reality NOW is that the Saudies have bought US, and GWB is just a pawn in
their game.
It is THEM that want a high price for the oil, and the US export product is
weapons and terror so that oil price stays up there, and the weapon plants
keep rolling.

Iraq is the competition to them, and that is why it should export no oil
(and does not), Iran is ALSO the competition, so having it destroyed will
simply put oil price up and profits.
You the sucker Americans do pay for it, while those Saudies cash in.

There are of course many ways to look at this, and this is one of them.
Fits all fact so far, Occam's Razor.

 

[Del Cecchi]

LOL
Had not IBM sold some many computers to Germany not so many Jews would have
been killed.
See the logic?

The reality NOW is that the Saudies have bought US, and GWB is just a pawn in
their game.
It is THEM that want a high price for the oil, and the US export product is
weapons and terror so that oil price stays up there, and the weapon plants
keep rolling.

Iraq is the competition to them, and that is why it should export no oil
(and does not), Iran is ALSO the competition, so having it destroyed will
simply put oil price up and profits.
You the sucker Americans do pay for it, while those Saudies cash in.

There are of course many ways to look at this, and this is one of them.
Fits all fact so far, Occam's Razor.

"Paranoia runs deep. Into your mind it will creep. ...." You need to
renew the tinfoil. the old stuff is letting the zeta rays in.

 

[Evgenij Barsukov]

Jan Panteltje wrote:

Then the only question to be answered how does your keyboard with build in
super computer interface to the LAN?
Well, (from your point of view) *put the H264 ENCODER in the PC* (or
in the PS3, or in the keyboard with supercomputer.
So, and maybe by setting parameters in that ENCODER we can have good display
of the PC screen (desktop) on that big TV too (I have tried some, it seems
to work).
So all LAN.

Real time ENCODING will always be inferferior in quality to "off-line"
encoding that does analysis run before encoding run and can use
unlimited time for post-processing. The reasons why TV broadcosting in
mpeg4 and now in H264 format has acceptable quality is that stations
encode the material right from the raw JMPEG in most comfortable
off-line conditions using all kinds of twicks to improve
quality and reduce artifacts. Do encoding in real-time and your quality
will suck, no matter how much processing power you will use.

Regards,
Evgenij

 

[George Macdonald]

"Paranoia runs deep. Into your mind it will creep. ...." You need to
renew the tinfoil. the old stuff is letting the zeta rays in.

IIRC Occam was actually a bit of a charlatan... paranoic even, and proposed
his theory, in a largely unsuccessful attempt, to discredit perfectly good,
logical, accepted explanations and have his own lunatic ideas imposed
instead. I'll have to see if I can look that up again but err, looney...
paranoid... yup it seems to fit.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

Jan Panteltje wrote:



Real time ENCODING will always be inferferior in quality to "off-line"
encoding that does analysis run before encoding run and can use
unlimited time for post-processing. The reasons why TV broadcosting in
mpeg4 and now in H264 format has acceptable quality is that stations
encode the material right from the raw JMPEG in most comfortable
off-line conditions using all kinds of twicks to improve
quality and reduce artifacts. Do encoding in real-time and your quality
will suck, no matter how much processing power you will use.

Regards,
Evgenij

Hi, I am familiar with 2 pass encoding, used it a lot with DivX for example.
In any encoder a lot of parameters can be tweaked.
Look at all the options in mpeg2enc for example.
Yes these encoders are lossy.
But to display a desktop (change of a desktop) via a narrow band network
(say 12 Mbits for arguments sake as that is used for HD TV in Europe), look
at what we have:
We have the PC (PS3, notebook) with the (blue light) DVD player, and the
movie content IS already H264 or mpeg2, so pass it on.
The notebook screen, if you wanted to display that (for example running
an animation in blender), THAT can be encoded with a lot of new frames,
I frames, special GOP size, what not.
You will find it is perfectly possible to display the moving mouse cursor
too, the animation will run as any movie on that TV.
From a bandwidth point of view, if you wanted to go 'wild' you could encode
the screen in a lossless format and only send a new 'gif' when it changes.
In ALL these cases it makes sense to have the Cell with decoders in the TV.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

"Paranoia runs deep. Into your mind it will creep. ...." You need to
renew the tinfoil. the old stuff is letting the zeta rays in.

Some are easy to fool.
I am very good at analyzing stuff, take a step back, I know this may hurt
you, but your president (and his papa) are in bed with the Saudies.

One would have to be blind and dumb not to see that (with all respect).
Even Osama was a Saudi son of a king (-----), so and never caught of course.
hehe
When Bush senior came into power Iraq invaded .. so convenient.
When Bush Jr was elected twin towers was hit, and how convenient now he
could start war on anyone he blamed for it.
Possibly Osama was hit, perhaps (likely) killed, and that is why those Saudies
went to Bush Sr (remember) all upset.......

Your world.
During Bush administration 50000, 2000 US soldiers, plus the people in the twin
towers were sacrificed for power, higher oil price so profits).

Blood is the fuel the republican leaders run on.

No I have no respect for them, no I'd choose Clinton any time, at least
he was fun to read about with cigars and all that.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

IIRC Occam was actually a bit of a charlatan... paranoic even, and proposed
his theory, in a largely unsuccessful attempt, to discredit perfectly good,
logical, accepted explanations and have his own lunatic ideas imposed
instead. I'll have to see if I can look that up again but err, looney...
paranoid... yup it seems to fit.

Yea, do not know him personally... Was he Republican?

Anyways as to the RJ45, you have heard of VOIP have you?
In most houses here the old RJ11 connector is used for the phone.

Now think VOIP for a moment. All those standalone VOIP phones come
with Ethernet.
So the cables with the RJ11 will have to be replaced by cables with RJ45
anyways, and a connection WILL be in almost every room (never mind the
restroom, I had a business partner who would phone from there; he was on the
phone all day, but most people go there to get away from it for a moment,
smoke a cigarette (if allowed), but some want phones EVERYWHERE).

Then there are many ways that (VOIP) Ethernet can enter the house.
Some use the old telco copper wire (DSL), some use TV cable, some use
Internet over power lines (but that is really a no no, in Austria those
companies have had their license withdrawn, because the (not twisted)
power lines emit RF interference >10000 times stronger then allowed limits,
and short wave digital radio no longer worked.....).
But anyways, all these 'suppliers' of VOIP end up with an Ethernet connector.
Their box could be where the cable meets the house so to speak, all different
boxes, but all interfacing to that same infrastructure called Ethernet.
Just alone because of this VOIP Ethernet will be standard in the future.

 

[nobody]

Blood is the fuel the republican leaders run on.

No I have no respect for them, no I'd choose Clinton any time, at least
he was fun to read about with cigars and all that.

At least he claimed he did not inhale. Seems like you did.

NNN

 

[George Macdonald]

Yea, do not know him personally... Was he Republican?

You were the one who used his name.

Anyways as to the RJ45, you have heard of VOIP have you?
In most houses here the old RJ11 connector is used for the phone.

Huh? RJ-11 in NL? Not what the standard info presents at all. In fact it
seems there are 18 different phone jack types in Europe - bit of a mess
really but great for any company which makes adapters... 18x18 different
products. This site says this is the one for NL:
http://www.travelessentials.com/dep...Adaptors/Netherlands_Phone_Adaptor/page1.html.
Christ even Luxembourg has its own phone jack.

Now think VOIP for a moment. All those standalone VOIP phones come
with Ethernet.
So the cables with the RJ11 will have to be replaced by cables with RJ45
anyways, and a connection WILL be in almost every room (never mind the
restroom, I had a business partner who would phone from there; he was on the
phone all day, but most people go there to get away from it for a moment,
smoke a cigarette (if allowed), but some want phones EVERYWHERE).

VOIP, as a base service, has a problem in many parts of USA: if you lose
power, how do you call the electric company to report it? As for phones
everywhere, people hate wiring - the buggers who install it always make a
cock-up of it and it's messy. In older houses, it means ripping plastered
walls apart. Again most people just get an RF phone.

Then there are many ways that (VOIP) Ethernet can enter the house.
Some use the old telco copper wire (DSL), some use TV cable, some use
Internet over power lines (but that is really a no no, in Austria those
companies have had their license withdrawn, because the (not twisted)
power lines emit RF interference >10000 times stronger then allowed limits,
and short wave digital radio no longer worked.....).
But anyways, all these 'suppliers' of VOIP end up with an Ethernet connector.
Their box could be where the cable meets the house so to speak, all different
boxes, but all interfacing to that same infrastructure called Ethernet.
Just alone because of this VOIP Ethernet will be standard in the future.

I think you're going to have a hard time selling the idea of (re)cabling
the residential market - it certainly is nothing I'm interested in... nor
many people here that I've talked to in the US. IOW you may have a small
niche market there but I wouldn't get excited about its prospects.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

William of Ockham might have been a radical reductionist
but his razor is the basis for modern science.

No. Do you consider 14thC Francisian friars to be the equivalent!

Huh? RJ-11 in NL?

Yes, in new construction. The clever 4-contact interrupting
blades are still seen of course. Just as 4pins are in the US.
Rejacking is nowhere near as much work as rewiring.

VOIP, as a base service, has a problem in many parts of USA:
if you lose power, how do you call the electric company to
report it?

Cellphone, of course! The real question is, How many
backups to you want? Somebody will always want more.

As for phones everywhere, people hate wiring - the buggers
who install it always make a cock-up of it and it's messy.
In older houses, it means ripping plastered walls apart.
Again most people just get an RF phone.

Surely you've noticed that Euro guildsmen are much more skillful
than US wire monkeys. They pay for it too. Interiors surface
wiring is also considered acceptable, whereas in the US it is
not, where many complain even about exterior surface wiring.
Not that Euros have much choice, since they don't use studs or
hollow drywall. They pay for that, too!

I think you're going to have a hard time selling the idea of
(re)cabling the residential market - it certainly is nothing
I'm interested in... nor many people here that I've talked
to in the US. IOW you may have a small niche market there
but I wouldn't get excited about its prospects.

What recabling? VoIP has flaws, but cabling ain't one of 'em.
Disconnect the house POTS at the NID. Plug the VoIP PBX/bridge
into any open RJ11. It pushes battery & dialtone to std sets,
and needs power (UPS at owners option) and uplink.

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

William of Ockham might have been a radical reductionist
but his razor is the basis for modern science.

That's a bit of a leap. Personally I'd never heard of him until InMOS's
language for the ill-fated transputer.

No. Do you consider 14thC Francisian friars to be the equivalent!


Yes, in new construction. The clever 4-contact interrupting
blades are still seen of course. Just as 4pins are in the US.
Rejacking is nowhere near as much work as rewiring.

What about the URL I gave?

On the rejacking, there used to be regulations on jacks used which allowed
the Euro telcos to prohibit any use of jacks which did not conform to their
design. I haven't had recent experience but they *would* disconnect you
for any "violation". Has this all changed? In the UK they still seem to
be stuck on their special jacks.

Cellphone, of course! The real question is, How many
backups to you want? Somebody will always want more.

Hmm, here the electric company uses the caller ID to trace the address and
locate the fault - no human interaction at all. Dunno how that's done
exactly but with a cell phone that could cause complications for an
automated system. I've never tried with a cellphone because I don't have
nor want one.

Surely you've noticed that Euro guildsmen are much more skillful
than US wire monkeys. They pay for it too. Interiors surface
wiring is also considered acceptable, whereas in the US it is
not, where many complain even about exterior surface wiring.
Not that Euros have much choice, since they don't use studs or
hollow drywall. They pay for that, too!

Wow I dunno where you got all that. The Euro "guildsmen" that I've come
across, I would not call particularly more skillful than US variants... but
they are better "protected" against DIYers and umm, "non-union" workers.
I've seen *some* surface wiring in the odd rented dwelling which had been
done-over on the cheap but no, in general people will not accept it any
more than it is here in the US.

As for drywall, there are many more terraced and semi-detached houses there
where the separating wall is obviously quite substantial but all housing,
other than maybe super-luxury, since the 40s/50s has had what is known as
plasterboard -- basically the same stuff as drywall -- with a cavity, for
its inner walls and for "finishing" of the separating walls.

What recabling? VoIP has flaws, but cabling ain't one of 'em.
Disconnect the house POTS at the NID. Plug the VoIP PBX/bridge
into any open RJ11. It pushes battery & dialtone to std sets,
and needs power (UPS at owners option) and uplink.

In the *context*, he was talking about having RJ-45 Ethernet jacks *and*
wiring (cat 5e/6 ?) all over the building... not just for VOIP of course
but that was one of his justifications.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

That's a bit of a leap. Personally I'd never heard of
him until InMOS's language for the ill-fated transputer.

No leap. The thing about science is independance from
personality.

What about the URL I gave?

You are correct. NL is a 4 pin. I was thinking about FR
with the interrupting blade. These adapters may be necessary,
depeinding on where you go. People are more likely to complain
if they can get one than if they have one they don't need.

Hmm, here the electric company uses the caller ID to trace
the address and locate the fault - no human interaction
at all. Dunno how that's done exactly but with a cell phone
that could cause complications for an automated system.

Sure, and they'd have to fall-back to older tech.

I've never tried with a cellphone because I don't have nor
want one.

That case can easily be made. Who wants to be on a leash?
Only those who hold the whip.

Wow I dunno where you got all that. The Euro "guildsmen" that
I've come across, I would not call particularly more skillful
than US variants... but they are better "protected" against
DIYers and umm, "non-union" workers. I've seen *some* surface
wiring in the odd rented dwelling which had been done-over on
the cheap but no, in general people will not accept it any more
than it is here in the US.

It varies by locale. Many cities, much of the housing is
state-owned and rent controlled. Older buildings with
solid walls are hard to do without surface wiring. Have
you ever tried trenching?

As for drywall, there are many more terraced and semi-detached
houses there where the separating wall is obviously quite
substantial but all housing, other than maybe super-luxury,
since the 40s/50s has had what is known as plasterboard --

Some places, but many places building codes are different.
I've seen 1990s dutch construction with thru-brick for
_interior_ non-load bearing walls!

basically the same stuff as drywall -- with a cavity, for its
inner walls and for "finishing" of the separating walls.

In the *context*, he was talking about having RJ-45
Ethernet jacks *and* wiring (cat 5e/6 ?) all over the
building... not just for VOIP of course but that was one
of his justifications.

Sorry, I missed that. My fault from jumping late into
the thread. I would think if someone has 4 pr phone wiring
not-too-badly-daisychined, that could be converted to 10baseT
without too much trouble. Or buy the equipment to run one
of the 1pr systems.

-- Robert

 

[kimi]

Voip Learning and Translating Tutorial
Voice Over IP is a new communication means that let you telephone with
Internet at almost null cost.
How this is possible, what systems are used, what is the standard, all
that is covered by this Howto.


http://www.freewebs.com/voipformula/VoIP-HOWTO.html

 

[George Macdonald]

No leap. The thing about science is independance from
personality.

Well I've studied scientific subjects all my life and I'd have thought if
it was a tenet of modern science, it would have come up before InMOS.

You are correct. NL is a 4 pin. I was thinking about FR
with the interrupting blade. These adapters may be necessary,
depeinding on where you go. People are more likely to complain
if they can get one than if they have one they don't need.

Hmm, no you were right about recent installations: I decided to do a bit of
"research" and turned up that the European Commission has mandated the
RJ-11 as part of a Common Technical Regulation - I'm not sure if full CTR21
was ever established because it's all tied up with an attempt to have a
common standard for the electrical interface and the signalling etc.
Before a CTR is stamped into law, the quango concerned issues TBRs,
Technical Basis for Regulation, so the delegates concerned have all been
haggling over TBR21, TBR37 & TBR38 but AIUI, the RJ-11 *is* now mandated
for Telcos and equipment suppliers, with optional adapters for the latter.

So the EC does *some* good things after all but the amount of legal bumph
they've accumulated over this is mind-boggling and all they've apparently
got so far is RJ-11 - D.C. has nothing on Bruxelles as far as work-program
for lawyers. Some of the tech discussions I came across are hilarious:
they have polls on details of TBRxx and whether it is "ready" for CTR; you
get: "we will vote 'for' if rules are amended to adapt to *our* system"...
utterly futile. A German comment was "utterly useless", the French seem to
"miss" meetings and the Irish are always present. The quango, ETSI, has
installed itself in Sophia-Antipolis not far from Cannes and close to Cap
d'Antibes... mmmm, *very* nice location.

It varies by locale. Many cities, much of the housing is
state-owned and rent controlled. Older buildings with
solid walls are hard to do without surface wiring. Have
you ever tried trenching?

No I haven't tried trenching but/because I've seen the results of bungled
attempts. Much of that "state owned" has been sold off to the former
renters... and of course, eventually, the usual leeches.

Sorry, I missed that. My fault from jumping late into
the thread. I would think if someone has 4 pr phone wiring
not-too-badly-daisychined, that could be converted to 10baseT
without too much trouble. Or buy the equipment to run one
of the 1pr systems.

I'm not sure what "1pr" is but HomePNA is claiming to be getting close to
100Mb/s now, but I'm not sure what the reliability is like. I know that at
work, the cat5 I put in has been working fine at 1Gb/s so I guess if the
original telephone wiring were done carefully......

 

[Jan Panteltje]

It varies by locale. Many cities, much of the housing is
state-owned and rent controlled. Older buildings with
solid walls are hard to do without surface wiring. Have
you ever tried trenching?


Some places, but many places building codes are different.
I've seen 1990s dutch construction with thru-brick for
_interior_ non-load bearing walls!



Sorry, I missed that. My fault from jumping late into
the thread. I would think if someone has 4 pr phone wiring
not-too-badly-daisychined, that could be converted to 10baseT
without too much trouble. Or buy the equipment to run one
of the 1pr systems.

Base10 is too slow, if new I would go for gigabit, base100 will do for HD TV.


Some remarks: Yes telco has changed a lot in Netherlands in last few years.
Yes my DSL modem came just with RJ11 connector.
Yes there are 'adapter plugs' from 4 pin (the big connectors) to RJ11 in
every KPN shop these days, they ALSO have DIY cable and RJ11 plugs with
pliers in those shops these days.
So all RJ11 really even on the phones.
The old houses may have 4 pin big connectors.. likely with RJ11 adapters.

As for putting in the cat 5 ... I am sure it will happen, first in new
buildings.
The power-over-Ethernet (cat5) modules are still expensive..
And I think the land lines will still operate for -what is it 24 hours?- if
power goes... (There were 48 V batteries in the local phone 'stations'.
Something like 48 V 30A chargers I actually designed for them, but now
these stations are all solid state I wonder how long these will run without
power).
Do you know?
All cell phone (GSM) will stop working, and all TCP/IP say Internet will stop
working too without power (think Internet over cable).
I am not at all sure DSL will still work without power.
(We had power failure in large parts of the country several times now).

So, anyways, to be prepared for that (but I am a nerd) I have a battery
powered amateur radio station here that can run max 12 Hours continuous in
TRANSMIT (in case of flooding here).
Worst case 30 minutes worldwide in transmit at max power, enough time to say
'help'.
With modern tech I would not rely on a phone line working ANYTIME when power
goes especially if the area is flooded (yes I am behind a sea dike).

Yes the telco here had to give up (or at least did give up) many of the old
'kill you if you open box' rules.....
This was due to market pressure, others wanted to sell modems too.., other
carriers use their network.. etc.

Europe is getting more and more liberal as far as telecommunications is
concerned.
Even the assignment of frequencies, in Germany spectrum is allocated different
in different cities now I have read (for TV over cell phone), there seem to be
2 systems..
A new digital TV standard... it is going really fast.....
Hope that answers George Macdonald question too.

Where will it go?