Restore vs Backup

P

Pete B

What is the difference in WinXP Pro between saving a System Restore point,
as compared to saving a system backup using the Backup utility to save the
system state components? Other than the preference of Backup to use
external storage media, I mean....

Is there any KB article or Tech info that describes exactly what each
utility does in detail like this?

Thanks
 
P

Pete B

Thanks, Ted. What I specifically was wondering about, though,is backup of
the system state components in Backup, not the whole Windows installation
(or is that what system state components means). Backing up my whole
Windows installation would, I presume, require a lot more than just the
system state components, right?

What specifically is included or not included in that group called sytem
state components in Backup? Are there other things that are saved/restored
with the System Restore util that would not be part of that selection?
Understand I am talking about doing a custom Backup, where you select
exactly what is backed up; one of the selections under advanced mode is the
system state components.

Of course, I suppose I might find some of the answers by reading the technet
article :=).

Which I just did. But I am still not clear what the difference is between
Backup and Sys Restore in this respect. Is it better to use System Restore
or Backup before, say, installing a new software app that one does not know
all that well?

--
Pete B


Ted Zieglar said:
Good question. When you backup your entire system, you include your entire
Windows installation. A restore point only contains the registry and
certain
key system and user files.

"Frequently Asked Questions Regarding System Restore in Windows XP"
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/plan/faqsrwxp.mspx
 
B

Bert Kinney

Hi Pete,

<Snip from the following article>
System State data includes the following:
Boot files, including the system files
Files protected by Windows File Protection (WFP)
The registry
Performance counter configuration information
The Component Services class registration database

Windows XP Resource Kit: Backing Up and Restoring Data
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/c14621675.mspx#EFAA

What's restored and what's not using System Restore:

* Restored
Registry (note: some current values will persist)
Profiles (local only—roaming user profiles not impacted by
restore)
COM+ DB
WFP.dll cache
WMI DB
IIS Metabase
Files with extensions listed in the Monitored File Extensions
list
* Not Restored
DRM settings
SAM hives (does not restore passwords)
WPA settings (Windows authentication information is not
restored)
Contents of the My Documents folder(s)
Specific directories/files listed in the Monitored File
Extensions list
Any file with an extension not listed in the Monitored File
Extensions list
Items listed in both Filesnottobackup and KeysnottoRestore
(hklm->system->controlset001->control->backuprestore->filesnottobackup
and keysnottorestore)
User-created data stored in the user profile
Contents of redirected folders
 
P

Pete B

OK thanks. Maybe I am not being specific enough as to what my purpose is in
all this, it is pretty simple. I want to, essentially, back up my PC to the
point where, if it totally crashes, say with a BSD when I try to boot up
that will not let me boot up. I want to be able to do an emergency boot from
a floppy or bootable CD and then restore my system to whatever state I had
in that backup. I want to back up all my data files and all the files and
info that WinXP needs to get me back to the state I was in when I made the
backup, so I can recover from the crash.

Backup wizard gives me an option to save all files and info which it says it
will follow the save by then creating a boot floppy, but that is not what I
want because it tries to save everything on the HDD. I don't need to do
that, I just need to save the dynamic personal data and the Windows recovery
stuff. If I lose the software apps itself, it will be a pain but I can
always go back and reinstall all of those, so I don't need to save that 30GB
of files for the programs themselves and such.

I can do the Backup Advanced, where I select manually, and select the
Automated Sys Rec Wizard but that tries to save the whole partition. Or I
can select the Backup tab and individually select the folders and the system
state components, but does that follow with a boot floppy creation if I do
it? Seems to me that would let me select exactly what to save, but I still
may not be getting all that I need to recover from a failure.

It was easier in the old versions of Windows, you could just tell Windows
Setup to create a bootable CD and it would do the rest. This XP method
seems highly complicated. That is really my whole goal here. So what
should I do?

And I surely wish MS would make the Backup util so it would save direct to a
DVD-R or DVD-RW drive.....
 
P

Pete B

Well, I already have imaging software installed, I have Nero (I would not
use a Norton's product ever again even if you held a gun to my head :=)
They are crap IMO... but that is a topic for another day). I may just try a
custom sslection of the folders and data I want, along with the sys state
components; that option seems to provide for making a boot floppy as part
of the task.

In any case, it seems what you are saying is I am out of luck. Oh well....
It is a shame that MS dropped the ability to easily make an emergency rescue
disk like we used to be able to do with earlier versions. Even that piece
of OS art known as Windows 98 SE had that function.

I probably will never need it, it is just something that, until now, I
always maintained. BTW this is for my new PC for my home business, not a
network machine; making images is not as easy a task on a single machine
stand-alone system as it is on a work station, but Nero can do it.

--
Pete B

Ted Zieglar said:
Your goal is best achieved with disk imaging software. Some popular
choices
(no order is intended):

Norton Ghost 10
http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoffice/products/backup_recovery/ghost10/index.html

Acronis True Image 9
http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage/

Image for Windows http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/imagew.html
 
T

Ted Zieglar

Nero is not a disk imaging application.

You seem to be stuck on doing things your own way. I wish you good luck.
 
P

Pete B

Nero is far more than an imaging app, thus far superior. You apparently
have a different idea of what a disk image app is supposed to do than I do.
Nero does indeed have a function to burn an image to disk. If you mean
something like Norton's Ghost as an imaging app, this function does the
exact same thing. I am not enthralled with Nero myself, but it is far
better, more versatile in general than Norton's Ghost.

I already have Norton's Ghost incidentally, it is probably the only Norton's
app I would trust to use, but I do not want to burn an image of the entire
HDD. Although I am aware that an image is the "standard" way to make a
perfect recovery, it suffers from the limitation that it is, as far as I am
aware, a snapshot. Imaging is not a problem if you are on a network, where
you can image the HDD regularly to network storage, but on a small
stand-alone business system I must back up to DVDs or else buy a very
expensive high-capacity external HDD.

I was simply seeking a functionality similar to the emergency rescue
functions of the earlier Windows versions. After reading up on it in
several further articles and such in the MSKB and Technet, I can see why it
has been changed for XP such that it is much more difficult to do a
practical emergency recovery backup, although I did find some articles that
indicate it is possible if very impractical.

I will probably never have a HDD failure anyway, so it is really just a
tinge of paranoia from my earlier days with less reliable PCs. I know how
to boot up XP to a command prompt, and how to use System Restore from a
command prompt to restore to the last save, which should take care of almost
all disasters; that Windows function has saved my skin a few times quite
well. I know how to recover a backup copy of the registry from that command
prompt, too, should that be the problem. I guess if I just backup my data
regularly, I should be safe enough; if the HDD crashes to the point where
it cannot recover that way, I guess anything else would be useless anyway.

It is not so much that I want to do things my own way, it is just that I use
my PC for my business, and maintenance of it is not my primary function in
life. If my only job was maintaining it, I would just do the backups in the
manner you say, regardless of the time and labor involved.

Thanks for your help.
 
K

Kerry Brown

Pete B wrote:

I will probably never have a HDD failure anyway, so it is really just
a tinge of paranoia from my earlier days with less reliable PCs.

<more snippage>

You will have a hard drive fail. It is only a matter of time.

Kerry
 
P

Pete B

Perhaps, but my previous PC went about 7 years with dual HDDs and never had
a drive failure. Finally it was replaced with my current system because I
needed more power. I know the possibility is always there, though, hence
the tinge of paranoia. I do not leave my PC powered up when I am done at
night, and I always power down when the weather is bad to avoid power
failures, yada yada. But of course there is always the unforeseen....

Anyway, so long as I backup the data, it really will not matter terribly,
because if I have to, I can just reinstall all the app software on a new HDD
and then recover the data from my backups. We are not talking
mission-critical stuff here, just my own data for my own business. Lot of
work but what the heck......

So maybe I will try just using data backups to CDs or DVDs.
 
K

Kerry Brown

My experience is that as hard drives have become cheaper the failure rate
has gone up. This is only my experience. It could be that it's just due to
more hard drives being in use so the number of actual failures is higher but
the rate of failure is lower. In the end it comes down to one thing. A hard
drive has moving parts. Moving parts wear out. Eventually every hard drive
will fail. Your backup startegy should be based on this and how critical
your data is. As you say, if the data is not that important then a backup
isn't that important. Personally I've had several hard drives fail and I
replace failed drives for customers fairly regularly. Usually digital
pictures and emails are the things people are upset about losing.

Kerry
 
P

Pete B

I agree with all that. I also have had a few HDD failures in the past, some
terminal :=). I am not so concerned about the failure happening anytime
soon due to hardware problems (this PC is only a month old) as I am that
something may happen caused by an OS failure or due to a screwup on my part
(I write custom Windows and non-Windows apps, database apps, and web
software, and sometimes I, uhmm, experiment shall we say). I know, I know:
not possible, you say; oh yeah watch this, says I.

I am not talking about hacking, just making an error, or installing some app
that does not behave itself (yes, that has been known to happen), or last, a
virus or hack somehow doing its thing to wreak havoc. Or a combination of a
power failure at the wrong time and something else. Whatever.

Anyway, one thing, I looked at the choices of software Mr. Zieglar wrote
about, abd I really do like that second suggestion, the Acronis products. I
may get that Image 9 package, as well as a couple of their other apps, they
seem to be the best I have seen. So my thanks to Mr. Ziegler, I had never
seen that company's products before. Like I said, my big problem with
imaging is simply what to use for the backup storage media, but I will think
of something, and those products do allow using DVDs.

I could even take my old PC, network it to this one, and use it for the
backup if necessary; it is just gathering dust but it is perfectly in order
otherwise, with about 60G of HDD space avilable, more or less; I could even
make a server out of it. But that would be a pain, perhaps, taking up
needed space.

Thanks to you both for the input and advice.
 
K

Kerry Brown

Pete said:
Anyway, one thing, I looked at the choices of software Mr. Zieglar
wrote about, abd I really do like that second suggestion, the Acronis
products. I may get that Image 9 package, as well as a couple of
their other apps, they seem to be the best I have seen. So my thanks
to Mr. Ziegler, I had never seen that company's products before. Like I
said, my big problem with imaging is simply what to use for
the backup storage media, but I will think of something, and those
products do allow using DVDs.

I have used Acronis products for years. They work very well. You do need 3rd
party software to burn Acronis images to CD or DVD. They process is quite
easy and explained well in the documentation.

Kerry
 
P

Pete B

OK, now that brings up a few further questions: by "third-party software"
required, are you talking about that being required to burn an image
directly to a DVD? As I said, I have Nero installed, it can burn data DVDs,
would that suffice? I looked at the documentation (available on the website
as PDF), and it mentions that requirement, but it is not exactly clear about
doing it to a DVD.

I assume I could make an image to my HDD first, and then use the Nero app to
transfer that image to a bootable DVD, but is there some other means in the
product for doing this automatically or more directly to the DVD without the
HDD involved? I did not really see much stated about this particular
function, although I see it does explain things in the general process quite
well.

Various sections of the manual state as follows:

". 2.1.3 Supported storage media
Hard disk drives . Networked storage devices . CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW*
.. ZIP®, Jaz® and other removable media . P-ATA (IDE), S-ATA, SCSI, IEEE1394
(Firewire) and USB 1.0 / 2.0 drives, PC card storage devices. * - requires
third-party DVD recording software to be installed. . floppy disk drive or
CD-RW drive for bootable media creation....

............

Sizeable archives can be split into several files that together make the
original archive. A single archive can also be split for burning to
removable media. The default setting – Automatic. With this setting, Acronis
True Image Home will act as follows. When backing up to the hard disk: If
the selected disk has enough space and its file system allows the estimated
file size, the program will create a single archive file. If the storage
disk has enough space, but its file system does not allow the estimated file
size, Acronis True Image Home will automatically split the image into
several files. ... FAT16 and FAT32 file systems have a 4 GB file size limit.
At the same time, the existing hard drives capacity may reach as much as
160GB. Therefore, an archive file might easily exceed this limit, if you are
going to back up the entire disk. If you do not have enough space to store
the image on your hard disk, the program will warn you and wait for your
decision as to how you plan to fix the problem. You can try to free some
additional space and continue or click Back and select another disk.

When backing up to a diskette, CD-R/RW, DVD-RW or DVD+R/RW: Acronis True
Image Home will ask you to insert a new disk when the previous one is full.
Alternatively, you can select Fixed size and enter the desired file size or
select it from the drop-down list. The archive will then be split into
multiple files of the specified size. That comes in handy when backing up to
a hard disk with a view to burning the archive to CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW or
DVD+R/RW later on. Creating images directly on CD-R/RW, DVD-RW, DVD+R/RW
might take considerably more time then it would on a hard disk....."



I assume you would select that Fixed Size option to make the archive for
burning to a DVD later on, but the manual seems to indicate that one can
directly burn to a DVD and the app will warn when to insert another DVD
because the current one is full, or something like that. Is that what
happens, if so how does that involve third-party software doing the burning
of the DVD? If it just makes the fixed-size files, that would be
sufficient, I know how to burn them to a DVD, but is that the exact way it
does it, to your knowledge?

Also, does this software require a separate partition for that Security Zone
it sets up, or can that zone be part of the same single-partition C drive?
Currently I only have the single non-partitioned HDD.


Appreciate this further explanatory help if you would be so kind, before I
invest in this product. It is a very modest price, but I do not want to buy
something I find I cannot use easily unless I am on a network. In my
business, every penny counts....
 
K

Kerry Brown

Not sure about TI 9. I use TI 8. When creating an image you can specify the
image size. There are several choices appropriate for Zip, CD, DVD etc. or
you can specify a size. The image will be split into files of the size you
specify. After the imaging process is complete you would use Nero to burn
the files to CD/DVD. When restoring the image TI will read the data directly
from the CD/DVD. TI can also write the image directly to CD/DVD using UDF
(InCD) and RW disks.

Kerry
 
C

coal_brona

Hi,

Speaking about backup, I suppose using Disk Image utility for that
purpose. It is really powerful, moreover it allows browsing and using
of single files from created backup image. The tool can be found on a
data utilities set CD image, Active@ Boot Disk, that also includes
aother mighty tools for data erase and recovery. Give it a glance, you
won't regret it.

http://www.ntfs.com/boot-disk.htm
 

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