Restore Disks for Vista

[Richard Urban]

They do that now for their keys, don't they?

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[William]

Not only that, but can you imagine the mess if you have 15 different
premium applications on your computer and each one required a dongle.
Now if there were a version of Vista that could boot and run from a USB
thumb drive, that would be cool. That way you could have your OS, a few
major applications, browser and email available on any computer you boot
from the flash drive. Part of the boot process would be to analyze the
hardware of the host computer and write come configuration files to the
hard drive and then in the future, it would look for the configuration
files and use them.

 

[Robert Blacher]

While I'm tempted to do some obscene pun on the word dongle, your proposal
sounds fine to me.

What MSFT is doing with Vista this time is a huge change in their former
licensing policies and will, I think, be met with much reluctance. Whether
MSFT is really powerful enough to shove the "one license -- one machine"
EULA down the world's throat remains to be seen. One license per user --
the, at least tacit acknowledgment that, when buying an upgrade, you could
apply it to your own desktop and laptop -- seemed fair enough to me and MSFT
didn't seem to be starving.

With the *huge* price increase of Vista Ultimate versus say Windows MCE,
MSFT may be trying to go too far too quickly.

I predict very slow acceptance of Vista by EXISTING licensees, if ever.
MSFT will eventually win only when enough NEW systems are shipped with Vista
that XP-compatible applications become hard to find.

That's my two cents worth of market analysis. I sold 33% of the MSFT stock
in the accounts I manage on Friday.
I expect to be able to buy it back again more cheaply at some point in the
next 12-18 months. Longer term I remain optimistic which is why the 2/3rds
position remains, at least for now.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

The key just gets typed in on installation. If a dongle has to be there
everytime Windows boots it would have be a lot more opportunities to get
lost. Or do you mean a dongle only for installing?

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

You can do that with a virtual machine. There are issues with files larger
than 4GB, but I have such an XP vm on a thumb drive.

 

[Mike]

With the *huge* price increase of Vista Ultimate versus say Windows MCE,
MSFT may be trying to go too far too quickly.

Why is everyone so hung up on the price of Vista Ultimate? It's a
combination of XP Pro, XP Media Center and XP Tablet PC, with even more
stuff from Vista Business thrown in! Buy all 3 of those and see what the
cost is!

Very few are going to need Ultimate. Business and Home Premium will be the
big sellers, with Home Basic close behind.

Mike

 

[Gonzo]

Why is everyone so hung up on the price of Vista Ultimate? It's a
combination of XP Pro, XP Media Center and XP Tablet PC, with even more
stuff from Vista Business thrown in! Buy all 3 of those and see what the
cost is!

Very few are going to need Ultimate. Business and Home Premium will be
the big sellers, with Home Basic close behind.

Mike

If you purchased all three you could install them on three PCs. One copy of
Ulitimate could only be installed on ONE PC. And that was the whole point.

 

[Robert Blacher]

Home Premium, in my not-usually-all-that-humble opinion, offers almost
nothing over Windows Media Center Edition 2005, which is what I had (well,
have). In my view, given how poorly the Vista Media Center performs
compared to the same components of MCE 2005, I would *never* upgrade from
MCE 2005 to Home Premium. BTW, I have no explanation for why Media Center
performance in Vista er, sucks, compared to MCE 2005 on similar hardware but
it does on every machine on which I have benchmarked both.

Ultimate has quite a few nice improvements, just not $350 per computer in
this house (we have 4 -- that's $1,400 to upgrade? -- no way!).

There was talk of an "additional license" fee once individuals bought one
upgrade -- sort of a volume license for those of us who buy in low volume
(less than 5). So far, I haven't seen a firm number. Actually, I haven't
seen any number. *That* might help.

And yes, we *also* have Office 2003 on 3 machines (well, Office 2007
Ultimate from Technet Plus now on my 2). While the Office license is less
restrictive ... still! MS seems to be planning a very expensive 2007 for
individuals like me. I am unique but ... there are lots of other people
like me. :-}

One nit: You said Vista is a combination of XP Pro and MCE. Sorry -- MCE
is a superset of XP Pro. And, MS is happy to give away the links in Vista
to its Mobile platform in the hope of getting Mobile on more phones and
other not-yet-invented or at least not-yet-discussed devices.

 

[Richard Urban]

No. I mean a dongle for install and run. Granted, if a hard key is lost the
system will be down. But that happens now to many of the expensive specialty
programs in to $20,000 and up class. People DO learn to take care of their
possessions when inconvenienced one or two times. Just the same as they
learn the value of a competent backup - after it's too late. But it is a
lessen not soon forgotten.

I have lived with dongles for many years and accept them. There is zero
chance for piracy. The hard key can not be duplicated.

Now, an upgrade scenario. XP installed with a dongle. Can't run without it.
Upgrade to Vista using a stacked Vista dongle. XP is gone. But, you still
need both keys stacked to get into Vista or it will not boot. No chance of
installing Windows XP on a different machine after the Vista install is
complete. Use the XP key to do that and Vista will not boot because the XP
key is missing.

Fool proof and secure. Your teenage daughter spends too much time on My
Space, remove the key!

Every day when getting to work I would take the dongle from around my neck
and place it in the computer in order to use my design program. I forgot the
key exactly once and had to drive home to get it.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Mike]

If you purchased all three you could install them on three PCs. One copy
of Ulitimate could only be installed on ONE PC. And that was the whole
point.

But you wouldn't have the combined functionality of all 3 on a single PC.
And that is the whole point.

Mike

 

[Mike]

One nit: You said Vista is a combination of XP Pro and MCE. Sorry -- MCE
is a superset of XP Pro.

Vista Ultimate is a combination of XP Pro, MCE and Tablet XP, plus some more
stuff from Vista Business and Enterprise thrown in. Very few people are
going to need all that functionality in a single machine.

Mike

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

It will sell to more people who just want it (technology enthusiasts) than
need it. Like me.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

It will sell to more people who just want it (technology enthusiasts) than
need it. Like me.

 

[Mike]

It will sell to more people who just want it (technology enthusiasts) than
need it. Like me.

Undoubtedly. Geeks R us, and I include myself in that!

But it's still silly to complain about "the high price of Vista" by pointing
out the price of Ultimate. You might as well complain about the high
price of SQL Server 2005 Express by pointing out the price of a 1000
connection SQL Server 2005 Enterprise license.

Mike

 

[Robert Blacher]

Heck, I don't "need" a 64 X2 Dual Core Processor, a 320 GB internal drive,
about 1 terabyte of USB HDs hanging off this machine (with another 500MB on
the way tomorrow), a 20" widescreen monitor, etc. etc.

But I paid $850 for the computer (including Windows MCE 2005) and $350 for
the monitor.

Now, $350 for Vista to "upgrade" seems disproportionate. Another $350 for
my Windows MCE 2005 laptop, bought a couple of years ago for, ugh, $2K or
so?

And, I forget-how-much to upgrade Office 2003 on each machine??? All in
2007?

*I* probably will. I'm an early adopter/power user/junkie :-} But, the
$$$$$ really do get absurd to predict much individual adoption of these new
technologies.

Anyone remember the Borland license? I'll paraphrase: "Treat this software
like a book. Only one person can use it at a time."

Sounds about right to me.

My point was/is that going from a per user license, as a practical matter,
to a per CPU license, enforced via a new form of copy protection AND
combining that with very stiff upgrade fees is an accident waiting to
happen.

Screech! (the sound of my wallet hitting the brakes)

 

[Robert Blacher]

You can do that with a virtual machine. There are issues with files
larger than 4GB, but I have such an XP vm on a thumb drive.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<big snip -- ripped from a msg thread on a different
subject) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Holy Batman, Colin! lol You just made me think of how I can get around the
fact that I don't have a fully Vista compatible version of drivers (yet?)
for my laser printer/scanner/fax combo.

I *do* have a Win XP Pro x64 version for them.

XP Pro 64 should run fine as a virtual machine under Vista Ultimate x64,
right?

Anyway, will let you know; I am downloading XP Pro 64 from Technet Plus even
as I type this. I already have Virtual PC 2007 around here somewhere (it's
public now, if I recall) -- I just couldn't find a use for it!

If this works, tip of the hat to you! I do have a 4 GB thumb drive that
I've been using to ReadyBoost my laptop (which *only* has 1 GB). I could
use that here. But, even if I have to put the VM image on my main hard
drive or even a USB drive, that's OK if I can finally restore that almost
new MFP to full functionality while waiting for Samsung to release drivers.

If this works, tip of the hat to you!

P.S. VPC 2004 is on the MS Download Center. Forget it . Virtual PC 2007
Beta is on Connect. The link is:

https://connect.microsoft.com/site/sitehome.aspx?SiteID=288

But, it's an open beta. Anyone smart enough to navigate Connect is welcome
to join in! :-}

 

[David Wilkinson]

Because inserting an XP cd and entering a pk does not validate the
genuiness of Windows anymore.

Think PK, Colin, not cd.

David Wilkinson

 

[Robert Blacher]

Crap! I just re-read the release notes for VPC 2007 beta:


"Support for 64-bit host operating system

This beta release of Virtual PC 2007 supports 64-bit host operating systems.
However, there is no support for 64-bit guest operating systems."

So I'd have to install XP Pro 32 as the guest? Oh dear, what a waste of
hardware. Not sure if I think that is worth the trouble as I've kludged a
way to use the SCX-4521F MFP under Vista x64.

Sigh. 5 minutes of joy!

 

[David Wilkinson]

OK, as you may have noticed, I'm like a dog with a bone sometimes who can't
let go.

I am *not* a programmer. But, I can conceptualize software so here goes:

(1) MS pushes through Windows Update to current Vista CPP/RC users an "XP
Validation" program (which I am going to nickname "ET"). The program does
the following:

(a) ET Runs under Vista. Explains it's trying what the heck it is
trying to do -- save the customer time and money and instructs user to
insert XP CD/DVD. (PR campaign needed to overcome mistrust here -- we can
all help :-} )

(b) Requires users to enter XP key either from the XP media or the
sticker we all have on our boxes.

c) ET calls home. In other words, it calls Microsoft over the
Internet and "validates" the XP key. I'm going to be purposely vague about
what validate means. All MS really needs is to record the unique key and
make sure this is the first time ET called home with that key.

(d) Assuming the key is "valid" and unique, ET records a file on the
Vista disk -- using NSA level encryption and hidden god knows where that
says, in essence, yup, we got a good one. We will call that file "ET
Genuine." The file is saved.

(2) When Vista installs, the first thing it *already* does is check with MS
to see if there are any install updates available (hence, the code really
isn't frozen folks). Assuming it's too late to put ET's cousin on the
Vista
upgrade disk (probably is), Vista install does the following:

(a) Checks to see if a legit CPP/RC of Vista is installed.

(b) If yes, downloads ET's cousin which validates "ET Genuine" including
making sure that ET Genuine is still unique.

c) IF ET Genuine is found, validated and is still unique, an upgrade
of Vista RC is permitted. If ET Genuine is invalid, etc., Vista downloads
Darth Vader and re-formats your hard drive. Well, OK, you got my point.


Perfect. Undoubtedly no. Subject to some piracy. Undoubtedly yes. A
major source of revenue loss for MS -- no way! So, the pirate who beats
this scheme pays $259 for Vista Ultimate instead of $399. BFD. It will
encourage CPPs to upgrade to Vista early and probably end up either
revenue-neutral or positive.

If the folks at MS can't write the above in a week, their programmers
are in
deep doo doo. Whether they are capable of deciding to do *SOMETHING*
along
these lines within the next 45 days before the next Vista launch (phase 2)
is a nice test of how nimble the behemoth is these days.

Robert:

This is precisely what I have been saying now for a couple of weeks, but
people are still fixated on the "A cd does not prove a valid copy of XP"
thingy. As you have noted, it is the PK, not the cd, that matters.

I believe even at this late date it would be possible to patch Vista
(via Windows update) so that the upgrade required only the XP PK, and
not an install. You would clean install Vista without the PK (being
careful to select the correct version) and then something like your
scheme could be used when you try to validate Vista.

So simple: Tie the qualifying OS to Vista activation, not installation.

David Wilkinson

 

[Robert Blacher]

YAY!. I finally got a response from someone who not only understood my
suggestion (it *was* complicated and typed late at night) but who agrees!

Thank you. I feel so *validated* :-}

Seriously, MS has a number of sensible ways out of this bind they've gotten
themselves into without opening too many (if any) doors to piracy. It's
bureaucratic inertia or just plain f'ing dumb if they don't.

I personally never had much warmth toward the DOJ Antitrust case against MS
(it's anti-consumer to tell MS not to include stuff in the op sys for free),
ditto for the current EU complaint, and I was LIVID when the DOJ nixed the
MSFT/Intuit merger -- they set back electronic banking for at least a
decade.

The relevance of that rant (lol) is: MSFT's response to a legitimate
complaint like this is, to me, a decent test of whether they have gotten so
powerful, arrogant, big and clumsy that it may, finally, be time to take
them on. I'd MUCH rather see the market do so, but if it fails .....

The above also applies to the related thread of messages discussing "one
upgrade per CPU at $359 per license per CPU" (for us little folk -- the big
guys get volume discounts) pricing, er, scheme, er proposal. If they can
successfully shove even *that* pricing scheme down the throats of the
public, then the market just ain't working. And, that's the *only* time the
Antitrust laws should be used (even market-oriented Republicans have to
agree with that, I think -- LOL!).

OMG, what a rant. Flame suit of if anyone actually understands what I just
typed.