Restore Disks for Vista

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Hello All,

I'm currently running RC1 with a few issues but none large enough to
mention. Installed RC1 over XP sp2 . My Question is how will I be able to
make restore disks when I upgrade to ultimate in Jan 07?

When I purchased the PC I was given the option to create back up disks of
the OS and installed software which I did there were around 10 disks that I
made. Also HP cut a slice ( portioned 7.5 gigs for recovery of Win XP) So
when start vista it brings up a the Boot screen asking whether I want to
boot to vista or xp?! How will this effect the final install in Jan?


TIA

Caesar

 

[Rick Rogers]

Hi,

First off, that program to create recovery disks was specific to HP and
their provisions for recovering the system from a total failure. HP also
provides for the small recovery partition for when the failure is not
hardware related, normally you would boot and choose it from a special
recovery menu (check your user manual). It would have naught to do with
Vista or its installation, and the system's boot record (mbr) no longer
points to it, it points to Vista's bootloader now. When you upgrade the
existing RC1 install to Vista, it should simply overwrite that installation.
If you are currently dual booting, that too should be preserved.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[Robert Blacher]

And, the $150 or so question is: If you erased the recovery partition
during Vista beta testing (I did -- why waste 8 GB?) and re-partitioned,
re-formatted, etc., will you still qualify for the "upgrade"? Yes, if you
made the recovery disks? No, if you didn't?

Not a biggie. You can order the recovery disks from HP for a nominal fee.
I *guess* you then have to blow away your Vista installation, "recover"
whatever version of XP you had, and THEN "upgrade" to Vista. If that's
right, sheesh!

To protect myself, I made a Norton Ghost image of XP (MCE, in my case)before
I ever installed Vista, and then put that USB drive and the Norton Ghost
boot disk in my supposedly fireproof safe. Yes, I also made the recovery
disks the day I bought this computer.

I did mention somewhere something about being an anal compulsive
backer-upper, didn't I? :-}

 

[John Barnes]

But will an upgrade version allow for an upgrade of RC1. Last word I saw
was that it had to be run from within the qualifying OS (not a beta, but
XP). If that holds, it will require the full version to upgrade from RC1 to
Gold.

 

[Rick Rogers]

There's been no change that I know of. To install over RC1 will require a
full version. I was referring to upgrading only in the sense of preserving
the existing system settings and user accounts, not to the type of disk that
should be used.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

A full edition can be used to upgrade from RC to final but an Upgrade
edition cannot. This is because a full edition does not rely on the user
already owning a legacy Windows license. When you use the upgrade
capability of a full edition you are upgrading the bits but using a brand
new full license. When you use the upgrade capability of an Upgrade edition
you are upgrading both the bits and the legacy Windows license (to Vista).
The difference here is in the editions of Vista used.

 

[Robert Blacher]

Colin -- I hadn't been following this thread too closely, so if this is
redundant, I apologize in advance.

Why the heck couldn't MS allow a CPP tester with a valid XP CD/DVD to, at
the appropriate moment, insert the XP disk and type in their XP key, all
while using an "upgrade" DVD of Vista, the license for which is cheaper? In
short, doesn't this punish the CPP folk?

Hardly seems fair.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Because inserting an XP cd and entering a pk does not validate the genuiness
of Windows anymore. That is done by WGA on a running system after
activation. The genuiness of Windows is not in the media or the pk. Since
XP would have to be running on the computer to use an Upgrade edition on it,
that would mean that the fact that RC might also be installed is irrelevant.
If the Vista Upgrade edition installer accepted shiny media then what you
are asking might work. Unfortunately, it does not. If you boot with the
dvd and enter the Upgrade edition product key, Setup will instruct you to
reboot the computer and run Setup from the desktop.

A Vista full edition can upgrade Vista RC to Vista final using its
upgrade-in-place functionality because no legacy license is required. A
full edition license stands on its own.

An Upgrade Edition cannot upgrade Vista RC to Vista final because a legacy
license is required and Vista RC does not have a qualifying license.

Since a person does not have to pay for Vista RC you can hardly expect MS to
give credit against the cost of an Upgrade edition.
..

 

[Robert Blacher]

Everything you say makes sense given the current state of MS XP WGA.

But, net result: A fully-licensed GENUINE XP user who installed the CPP is
now forced to re-install XP just for the purpose of saving $150 or so
(depending on version of Vista) so they can buy the upgrade edition, not the
full version.

Somebody smarter than me at MS *should* have been able to figure out a way
around this without opening the door to allowing XP pirates to use the
upgrade version.

How do you explain that to CPP folks who *finally* have Vista working pretty
well and now are going to have to start from scratch. I think there were 5
million CPP downloads (don't ask me where I got that figure -- it's in my
head but I forget its source so ignore it ).

Since a person does not have to pay for Vista RC you can hardly expect MS
to give credit against the cost of an Upgrade edition.

No, of course not. It's just licensed XP users who, in good faith, albeit
with some vague warnings about this issue,
blew away their XP setup to install the Vista CPP shouldn't be *punished*
for doing so by going through the insane hoop of reinstalling a probably
very out of date XP CD/DVD before upgrading. Which assumes they have the
ability to re-install XP (see other msgs about folks who didn't make
recovery disks and can't get to their recovery partitions anymore).

Ah well, nevermind -- yet another PR/marketing problem for MS. I just
wanted to be sure I truly understood the situation.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

When the CPP began MS put on the Get Ready/Customer Preview Program page a
red-letter, bold paragraph that instructed participants that since the
pre-release software would expire on June 30, 2007, participants would have
to reinstall XP or purchase Vista final in 2007 and do a clean installation
of Windows.

The instructions also told participants "do not install the software on a
production or primay home computer." It follows that if participants
followed the intructions and did not install on such a computer there would
be no pre-release Vista on any production or primary home computer now to
upgrade. That lots of folks blew past that and did it anyway is irrelevant.

There never was "vagueness" about the warnings. Not when presented in
red-lettered, bold print. Any vagueness is due to folks just plain
disregarding what was said. That's volitional.

That same page also defined what MS meant by "customers" in the name of the
program and what skills participants should have in order to successfully
participate. Among these were making backups and experience in installing
operating systems.

MS recognized that there were participants who did this in spite of warnings
and wanted a way to retain their configurations when the final came out and,
although MS never promised it would work out, in the end uprading-in-place
from RC to final did work for many.

But even where an upgrade-in-place from RC to final was feasible, MS never
said anything about an UPGRADE EDITION being able to do it. In point of
fact, it takes the upgrade functionality of a full edition to do it.

(There were 2 million CPP registrations for downloads of build 5384 when it
was cut off.)

 

[Robert Blacher]

OK, as you may have noticed, I'm like a dog with a bone sometimes who can't
let go.

I am *not* a programmer. But, I can conceptualize software so here goes:

(1) MS pushes through Windows Update to current Vista CPP/RC users an "XP
Validation" program (which I am going to nickname "ET"). The program does
the following:

(a) ET Runs under Vista. Explains it's trying what the heck it is
trying to do -- save the customer time and money and instructs user to
insert XP CD/DVD. (PR campaign needed to overcome mistrust here -- we can
all help :-} )

(b) Requires users to enter XP key either from the XP media or the
sticker we all have on our boxes.

c) ET calls home. In other words, it calls Microsoft over the
Internet and "validates" the XP key. I'm going to be purposely vague about
what validate means. All MS really needs is to record the unique key and
make sure this is the first time ET called home with that key.

(d) Assuming the key is "valid" and unique, ET records a file on the
Vista disk -- using NSA level encryption and hidden god knows where that
says, in essence, yup, we got a good one. We will call that file "ET
Genuine." The file is saved.

(2) When Vista installs, the first thing it *already* does is check with MS
to see if there are any install updates available (hence, the code really
isn't frozen folks). Assuming it's too late to put ET's cousin on the Vista
upgrade disk (probably is), Vista install does the following:

(a) Checks to see if a legit CPP/RC of Vista is installed.

(b) If yes, downloads ET's cousin which validates "ET Genuine" including
making sure that ET Genuine is still unique.

c) IF ET Genuine is found, validated and is still unique, an upgrade
of Vista RC is permitted. If ET Genuine is invalid, etc., Vista downloads
Darth Vader and re-formats your hard drive. Well, OK, you got my point.


Perfect. Undoubtedly no. Subject to some piracy. Undoubtedly yes. A
major source of revenue loss for MS -- no way! So, the pirate who beats
this scheme pays $259 for Vista Ultimate instead of $399. BFD. It will
encourage CPPs to upgrade to Vista early and probably end up either
revenue-neutral or positive.

If the folks at MS can't write the above in a week, their programmers are in
deep doo doo. Whether they are capable of deciding to do *SOMETHING* along
these lines within the next 45 days before the next Vista launch (phase 2)
is a nice test of how nimble the behemoth is these days.

 

[Robert Blacher]

When the CPP began MS put on the Get Ready/Customer Preview Program page a
red-letter, bold paragraph that instructed participants that since the
pre-release software would expire on June 30, 2007, participants would
have to reinstall XP or purchase Vista final in 2007 and do a clean
installation of Windows.

Colin: I don't have a copy of that page available to me at the moment. I
remember reading it quite carefully and here is what it meant to me (not
*necessarily* what it said):

We are NOT promising you that you will be able to leave the RC on your disk
and upgrade over it. (But, in fact, future releases in the beta cycle
allowed precisely that).

I took that to mean that I might have to do yet-another-clean-install of
Vista when I bought my license(s). I do NOT recall any mention of having to
re-install XP but let's assume you are right.

To extrapolate from that that I would even imagine that I would not qualify
for upgrade pricing unless I re-installed XP if I installed the beta is ...
well, I sure didn't.

All of the above notwithstanding, I made an image backup of my XP
installation using Norton Ghost 10 and I still have that image. I could be
back to where I was before I first installed a beta, god knows when, in less
than an hour.

I was not talking about me, I was talking about the masses who are not
quite as anal as am I. :-}

Yet-another-P.S.: As it turns out, on one system here, I got a cleaner
install by "upgrading" Build 5744 to RTM then I did when trying a "clean"
install (the details of that are in Microsoft's hands and are not relevant
here). I doubt that will happen frequently.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

No, I never assumed that you were commenting on your own behalf. I
understood that you were concerned about those who victimized themselves by
not practicing safe computing.

fwiw, the warning that participants would not be able to roll back Vista to
XP and would need to reinstall if they wanted to return to XP was on the
page.

The masses were never supposed to get involved in CPP. MS defined who the
"customers" in "Customer Preveiw Program" were. MS stated that CPP was for
"developers, IT professionals, and technology specialists" in order for them
to continue or begin testing Vista. In other words folks who needed to test
their own products and proceedures against Vista as it evolved as opposed to
those who were testing Vista itself (TechBeta and TAP). It was specifically
not a consumer preview. They allowed self-designation as to whether
participants fitted one of the defined groups of customers.

It is my observation is that the masses did not get involved in CPP. Lots
and lots of irresponsible technology enthusiasts maybe, but not the masses.

Quite a number of us have spent these many months first warning these folks
and then trying to bail them out. We did so with both chagrin and charity.

I am glad that you are enjoying your Vista experience and succeded in the
transition from 5744 to 6000.

Have a Happy Holidays.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I don't know whether they wanted to set the precedent.

 

[Richard G. Harper]

So, what do you do about folks like me, who own a valid copy of Windows XP
and their recovery media is NOT the same as Microsoft OEM media? You're
going to find that most computer users have never seen a "Windows XP CD" -
they've seen the recovery discs that either came with their system and/or
the ones that they made when they used the manufacturer's utility to make a
recovery disc set.

Microsoft doesn't have any way of verifying that those discs are legitimate
since they're not even Windows CDs but "HP" or "Compaq" or "IBM" or ...

Anyway, the presence of a CD and CD Key still doesn't mean you own a
licensed copy of Windows. What prevents me from taking my Windows XP Home
Edition CD box set to a friend's house and letting her use my CD Key and CD
to upgrade her PC, then selling or otherwise transferring that CD to another
owner?

--
Richard G. Harper [MVP Shell/User] (e-mail address removed)
* NEW! Catch my blog ... http://msmvps.com/blogs/rgharper/
* PLEASE post all messages and replies in the newsgroups
* The Website - http://rgharper.mvps.org/
* HELP us help YOU ... http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm

 

[Richard Urban]

One of the rules of beta testing is "Don't Do It" if you are not prepared to
"wipe your system" and start over again.

Well, you are at the point where you have to wipe your system.

Why didn't you set up a dual boot scenario initially? I have been through
about 6 different versions of Vista on it's own partition. When I got the
RTM I just installed it to the Vista partition. My Windows XP has been
unscathed through this all.

When Microsoft was asking for us to please try an upgrade install, I
installed XP, Office and a few other programs on the Vista partition and
then upgraded. Even though I have an image of my XP partition I wasn't even
tempted to upgrade this working Windows XP partition. It has to do with my
disk geometry and I wasn't about to do it.

Aside from that, if a person hasn't got the time to put in he/she shouldn't
be beta testing.


--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Hello All,

Thanks for your thoughts and input.. So on that note..

Here I sit and I'm confused or not clear as to my options come 1.30.07 I
'am running RC1 now which was installed on top of OEM Win XP sp2. So when I
go to purchase my copy ,what copy do I purchase an upgrade at 259.00 ? Or
because I installed RC1 I will need to buy the the the full version at 399.?
Would I need to run my restore disks and reinstall XP and then I will be
able to run the upgrade instead of the full install.? Please understand I'm
not bitching or complaining at all. It just seems that there would have been
a better way for all of the folks that did install RC1 RC2 through the
consumer preview program. to know that they may have to pay an extra 150.00
if certain criteria were not met.Will there be many surprised, disappointed
people in January? My self I still have the recovery part ion from HP
untouched I still have the recovery disks that I made, maybe that will be
enough information to just do the upgrade? I don't know. Thanks again for
your help.

Regards

Caesar

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

A full edition can upgrade an RC in place. An upgrade edition cannot.

To use an upgrade edition you will need to restore XP. To take advantage
of upgrade edition pricing, retstore with the restore disks that came with
your computer and activate XP. Then from the XP desktop insert the Vista
upgrade edition dvd and choose the upgrade option.

To upgrade a Vista RC you will need a full edition of Vista. To upgrade an
RC start the full edition of Vista from the RC desktop and choose the
upgrade option.

You will not be able to use the recovery media as proof of ownership of a
qualifying copy of Windows. Vista does not ask for disks like XP does (and
recovery media would not work even if it did).

The license for Vista RC is an evaluation copy license and does not qualify
for upgrade edition pricing. The installer will simply tell you that it
cannot find a genuine copy of Windows eligible for upgrade.

Personally, I suggest that you buy a full edition and use the Windows Easy
Transfer wizard in RC to save your files and settings to an external drive
or dvd's, then do a clean install of Vista, and then use WET to reinstall
your files and settings. Finally, install your apps. That way you will
have a transferrable license of Vista in case you buy a new computer. You
would be able to transfer a retail upgrade edition too but not the XP that
came installed on your computer. With a full edition you would not need any
such legacy Windows on the new computer to start the installation of Vista
on the new computer.

Note: There was no consumer preview program. There was a customer preview
program. ("Customers" were defined as developers, IT professionals, and
technology specialists.)

 

[Richard Urban]

Sigh! I wish Microsoft would go to hardware "dongles".

You want to install Windows XP, you put the hardware dongle into a USB port
and install XP. Windows XP is validated, because it can only run on one
computer at a time. The dongle must match a key on the Windows XP CD.

OK. So someone could have XP installed on 5 computers, but he could only USE
1 computer at a time. A huge inconvenience for a customer and an incentive
to buy another copy, or 2, of the operating system.

Now, you want to install Vista. You plug the Vista dongle into the back of
the Windows XP dongle and you have instant validation.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Then come the posts, "I lost my dongle. How do I get another one?"