"Release Candidate?" Vista is not even close.

J

Jeff

Lang,
Seeing as we're stating POV's; it's mine;that yours is nothing more than
blind allegiance.
A guy writes an honest,succinct opinion; and all you can yammer;is it's
beta?
Umm; what's RC1 stand for?
Comparing Vista to nix is WAY off the mark;btw
#1- Vista is made by a corporation;for profit; Nix is not.
#2- Nix; an embarrassment?
LOL- Ya obviously never have seen NIX huh?
#3- MSFT spends more in one month; by employing outsourced coders;to help
them keep on their deployment schedule; than most Nix disto's do;EVER.
#4- Don't care much about your personal privacy either huh? Guess not;
seeing as Vista will phone home; every time ya boot up; to check to see if
you are;in fact; not a criminal.
#5- Sometimes; it may be better to not say anything; especially when it
comes to opinions.

My 2 cents

Jeff
 
G

Guest

While I can't address most of the issues that you've had to endure, I can
perhaps help you with one of them: The reason that your hard disk activity
seems to be constant may be due to the fact that Vista by default runs
automatic scheduled disk defragmentations which (in my system, at least) take
a lot longer to finish than in XP. The first defrag seems to start almost
immediately after Vista is first installed, which makes for a pretty sluggish
system weather or not the indexing service is running. The scheduled defrags
can be disabled via a check-box on the defrag screen (Start->All
Programs->Accessories->System Tools->Disk Defragmenter). Switching off the
automatic defrags and the Useless Account Control has sped up my system
considerably (a P-III 1.4GHz 512MB ATA/133 system). The only real problems
that I've run into so far on this and one other (even older) computer that
I've loaded RC1 onto has been various hardware devices that can't start. I'm
hoping that RC2 will solve this, but I don't have a copy of it yet.

With regards to another of your issues, in my opinion your criticism of
Vista's assessment of your computer's performance by means of its Computer
Performance score is unjustified. The score isn't telling you that you can't
run Vista; it is merely showing you the relative performance of the various
hardware devices in your system, and in your case your graphics adapter is
keeping your system as a whole from achieving a higher scoure. You freely
admit that your video card is the weak link in your system, yet that's
exactly what Vista's performance score is telling you. Whether or not the
rest of the public has graphic adapters that are any better than yours is not
relevant to the fact that yours isn't very fast by today's (admittedly
rapidly changing) standards. Since the rest of your system is pretty fast
you might be well served to upgrade your graphics adapter; installing one of
the DX10-compatible adapters that will be out in a few months would probably
be worth your while. If your current graphics adapter's performance meets
all of your needs, then simply ignore its performance rating. While the
system score may not be terribly useful, the individual subscores can be a
valuable tool which can be used along with other benchmarks to verify that
any system hardware upgrades that you make are actually improving your
system's performance instead of merely costing you money.
 
L

Lang Murphy

Jeff,

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on whether comparing Vista to
Linux is valid or not. They're both desktop OS's, are they not?

1. yeah, so? They're both OS's...
2. Yeah, just tried SuSE 10.x a few weeks ago. Didn't like it at all. Have
tried RH in the past also. Wasn't crazy about that either. But... to
clarify, I guess my remark should target Gnome or KDE, not Linux itself.
3. OK... don't get the point, but that's alreet.
4. Hmm... if I bootleg anyone's code... do I have reason to assume personal
privacy? If I don't bootleg someone's code, would I give up personal privacy
to allow a vendor to protect their intellectual property? Don't really have
an opinion on that at this moment.
5. It certainly does seem that there are quite a lot of people who spend
more time in this NG spouting their opinions than assisting other users.
There are also others that spout their opinions as fact without offering
assistance to others. I may belong to the former group, but I don't think I
belong to the latter group.

Lang
 
J

Jeff

Ahh Lang,
Yes;
People do voice opinion in here;and yes ; I have seen you help people;as
have I;(me- on occasion!!) LOL
Nuff said about #5
However;
#4 should be one of concern; as an MVP; pointed out;in another
post;this kills me;and thanks;btw;Robert,
and I paraphrase this " bending over;and assuming the position; to submit
to a full body cavity search; every time you boot up" is;
out and out BS.-Not to mention; when did it fall to the customer;to
constantly prove that they are not a criminal?
#3 Basically; my point is; Nix is done by a "community" for "free"*
and not driven by cash flow and Wall street as is MSFT; if they were the
same; I'd bet you'd see Nix on the same level as MSFT.
#2 Ran the latest Mandriva Live DVD; and just like Vista; most hardware
was recognized;right out of the box;but ; just like Vista;my DANG Bluetooth
card wasn't recognized; oh well.
RC pretty much means DONE-READY-GOOD TO GO- RTM meaning FINAL; and the
original poster; disagreed. Not beta anymore Lang; so that excuse isn't
valid.

Jeff
*free as in mostly-
 
G

Guest

EXACTLY.

Your point is exactly my point and the title of my post: this "Release
Candidate" shouldn't be a candidate for release. It is not ready. I'd argue
its more Alpha than Beta, but we can disagree there.

Bugs and releasability aside, the user interface functionality remains and
the question on my mind: 5 years in the making and able to use the code-base
of any existing product and Vista is what we get? This is it?

If I were a lone programmer and came up with Vista I'd be pretty proud. If
I were a member of a team of programmers at one of, if not the the most
famous, prolific, powerful, and prestigious software companies in the world,
I'd be looking for a new job.
 
G

Guest

Wow. Thanks Jeff for your insightful comments!

I've used Nix, and while the usability of the O.S. vs. Vista's interface is
certainly debatable and a matter of preference, Nix does not have the
slowness of Vista. You might not like the desktop (KDE or whatever), but
slow it isn't.

You also have to weigh that Vista will cost $350. Is it fair to compare a
$350 desktop O.S. to a free one that will run on the same hardware? If there
aren't many other complete O.S. to compare Vista to, then of course its okay.
Its mandatory they be compared, but that $350 O.S. better be more than $350
better. I better be $350 more productive, get $350 more support, have $350
more applications, $350 more functionality, $350 more speed, and be more than
$350 better off. So the test shouldn't even be fair, it should be $350
skewed against the payware.

But the whole Nix thing is a bit of smoke and mirrors too. TANSTAAFL It is
true that the code base is now independntly maintained by largely
not-for-profit endeavors. I admit the economics escapes me, but the origin
of Linux was Unix, and that of course was developed by AT&T. Good old Ma
Bell wasn't giving phone service away, no, they were getting paid for it.
But they weren't complete jerks about their monopoly status, they had Bell
Labs. Bell Labs invented the CD, the LASER, the Transistor, and thousands of
other items that we all benefit from. One of those inventionis was UNIX. So
Linux isn't really free, we just paid for it already.

Since I've paid equally for Vista and UNIX, Vista better offer me a $350
better O.S. than I can get from Linux. At its current phase, Vista is not
$350 better than Linux. I honestly couldn't call it better at all right now.
Installs pretty easy, so that's good. After that it gets a little dodgier.
 
G

Guest

RC2 is much much better - I had good luck with a clean install of RC2, use
the same key as for RC1. Had to remove Linksys NIC before install to get it
to install. Then install updated driver, reinstall NIC and reboot.
 
L

Lang Murphy

Jeff,

Well, I guess the answer to the phone home thing would be to offer the
option to opt out after the first phone home to validate the OS install is
not a bootleg. Maybe that was mentioned somewhere previously in the
thread... I don't remember.

My whole issue with just about any flavor of Linux is that it's just not
that user friendly. I would never argue that it is not a powerful OS,
because certainly it is, but if one is not steeped in Linux knowledge
and -something- -goes- -wrong- I think it requires a much higher level of
low level knowledge, if that makes any sense, than XP or Vista to get the
ship righted. I had a number of issues with the SuSE distro, but I won't
bore anyone here with a repeat of previously posted thoughts on the subject.
If one has the desire to use Linux then one is free to use it. I don't fall
into that camp.

On the other hand, were Mac's not so dang expensive, I would surely consider
using a Mac, and OS 10.whatever is based on Unix, right? Got no problem with
that. I don't pledge allegiance to Windows. I use it at home because the
hw's a bunch cheaper than Apple hw. And I'm not much interested in running
any flavor of Windows on a Mac, fwiw...

In terms of pricing... I think it will be interesting to see if Vista pushes
up the price of PC's. I haven't bought an OS at retail since Windows 2.1.
Get all my OS's with new PC's. CompUSA had an eMachines on sale today
(including rebates) for $249 with Windows MCE, which is based on
Professional, not Home. I would suspect that the same setup with Vista would
not cost an additional $350, but that's just a guess.

And Vista -is- beta software until RTM. Will there be more bugs fixed in
this interim time period than earlier time periods? Of course not, but I
can't say with any certainty what will get fixed and what won't by the time
RTM drops. 5744 is not the last build before RTM. (Was so tempted to throw
in a "Just FYI..." LOL... guess I didn't pass that test. ;-D ) Will Vista
ship with bugs? Hell, yes! Will those bugs have a direct effect on me? Hell,
I hope not. Should MS hold off on releasing it? Hmm... don't know. Obviously
there are folks here who feel that MS would be making a major gaff by
releasing on the current schedule. I cannot argue that point. But I also
can't argue with the folks who are having little or no problems with it and
who WANT IT NOW. Heh, heh, heh... that's their perogative. Personally, I
have no skin in the game; if MS decides to postpone release, I'm fine with
it. If they released it tomorrow, I'd be fine with it. Don't know if I'd
install it on any production boxes if they released it tomorrow, but you get
my point, I hope. I have no skin in this game.

Lang
 
L

Lang Murphy

OK, maybe I should have gone down your list instead of posting what I did.
Here goes:

1. No problem here with the Problem reporting tool
2. No problem here with MMC snapins.
3. Fixed in 5744 (and I suspect this was a "back end" issue because update
did work when I first got 5728... got 6 updates, the last two days before I
started getting the same error you reference below.)
4. Agree. One must assume they have folks diligently working on this.
5. In 5744, it seems to be working OK. I just added the C drive to the index
and it's not slowing me down a bit.
6. Which tools? I've not had a problem with any here.
7. OK... noted.
8., 9., etc.

I have not experienced anywhere near the number of problems you've had with
your system and I'm running Vista on 4 different PC's here. Meaning four
different models with disparate hw. Sorry to hear you've had so many
problems; were I to experience that many problems, I too might be a tad
upset by what I perceived to be the state of Vista. The perception here,
though, is that it's actually in pretty good shape. There are going to be
more builds before RTM, so there will be more changes and, one hopes, good
changes as opposed to back-sliding changes.

UAC is more than "are you sure you want to run this?" I'm sure you know
that. Don't like it? Turn it off. Pretty simple.

And... hmm... maybe we're talking Apples and Oranges here... are you running
x64? I see you've got a x64 cpu but I could find no reference to the Vista
build you're using. I'm using 5744 x86. If you're using x64 then, LOL, never
mind.

Lang
 
J

Jeff

Lang,
I have no issue with Vista phoning home; once to validate the o.s.; and
I'll even agree to show my license if I try to download"genuine" MSFT
software.
The point here;and has been stated by many; including MSFT themselves; is
that Vista; and now supposedly xp;in the future; will no longer stop there.
They are now;it seems; going to make it mandatory;a requirement to do
business with them; that you allow the O.S. to phone home.
Again; a shift; fundamentally; a shift of ideologies; from one of
serving the customer; to make money; to one of blatant disrespect;disregard
for customers.
One where the end consumer is no longer a valued asset; to one of; they are
thieves dammit; and just to make sure the customer is not;we're going to
tether them.All under the pretense of trying to stop piracy. Out and Out BS.
I keep coming back to this point;but; when did the onus of responsibility
fall to the end consumer to have to justify their innocence. Constantly?
BTW; FYI; there's only One FYI Guy;and we all know him and ;oops I think I
was under an NDA-but I digress.
I myself am no Nix tech kind of guy; and yes; it is a learning curve;
but no more so than anyone dealing with Vista. In fact; the other day was
one of the first times I had ever even tried using Nix; hence;the Live DVD.
No big commitment; and I was actually surprised; that Mandriva did as well
as it did.
Found ALL my core hardware;out of the box; including my wireless;vid;and
both cpu's. Granted;not as nice as Vista;but then again; it did as well as
Vista;when it came to the core stuff. operating. The only thing it didn't
run right out of the box;was my Bluetooth card. But then again; neither
did;or currently does Vista. That's a specific driver issue though.
However; as I sit here typing; my WLAN;in Vista;has inexplicably
dropped;twice! Something;that; as an older build; I would say; o.k it's
beta;but for RC2;not acceptable. Something that did not happen in the most
recent;previous build; so no arguing that it's my hardware.
The point is; that people have their own opinions;and you cannot fault the
man for his opinion, especially well written; I might add.
RC by MSFT's own definition means feature complete; minor bug fix and
flash is all that's left. So yes Lange; RC is technically beta;but RC
meaning release candidate; pretty much; give it a paint job; kick the
tires;gas it up;and go!!
That's what I get from Randy's critique; is that he feels that in no way
can MSFT call this RC material. That's all.

Jeff
 
G

Guest

Now THAT is truly amazing, and very suspicious.

Which component's rating is going down each time? My score is based on the
score of my "weakest" component, in my case the video. I have installed the
O.S. 5 times and the score was identical every time.

Is it possible you have a bad hard-drive cable and the drive performance
gets worse as time goes on? Maybe the motherboard is going. I'd check
diagnostics and see what's going on here.
 
G

Guest

Yes, there are some differences from RC1 to RC2:

RC2 is much improved in general. I am getting far fewer Event Veiwer log
entries about things failing. Notably the snap-in problem I noted in RC1 has
not reappeared. That one was particularly annoying because I couldn't load
snap-ins to try and further any diagnosis.

The operating system also feels a little quicker. A little quicker, not a
lot, but this is perceptual and I have no hard evidence either way, though it
would be logical for this to occur.

I turned off UAC and signed driver enforcement (well, sorta, I gotta keep
hitting F8 at boot). The experience is so much more pleasant without UAC. I
stand by my earlier critique of UAC. I won't belabor the point.

Indexing also seems to banging away at my hard-drives with less ferocity
than RC1. I got skin burn from the photons emmitting from the hard-drive
light before. But on that note, indexing is SO SLOW. At this rate it'll
take nearly two days of solid activity to index my drives, and I turned off
everything I could except indexing of multimedia files (mp3, wmv, etc.).
There were a few extraneous file types that couldn't be unchecked, so those
of course remained.

I haven't really started banging away at the O.S. yet. That's where it
really fell apart with RC1. This also gives me a clue as to why some people
feel the experience is perfectly acceptable with Vista. If you don't do too
much, or expect too much, its just fine. I can pop around and do thsi and
that and its reasonably responsive. But as soon as I start to do anything
really heavy, it grinds to a halt in ways that XP Pro x64 doesn't. That
points to fundamental issues with the O.S., and not cosmetic fixes prior to
going "Gold."

All in all, I'd say Microsoft's programmers have made remarkable
improvements. RC1 was no Release Candidate. RC2 is much closer.

I still have some issues.
There are the usability issues (which I know others are echoing) I mentioned
before. Navigating with Explorer feels clunky and difficult. Some of that
is from me being so used to XP explorer, however as previously noted, aside
from this version of Windows each prior upgrade presented the user with a
*more* intuitive interface. This is the first time its been a less intuitive
interface. IMHO a LOT less intuitive.

I liked the ability to customize explorer. Here there is less ability to do
so. I had hoped this version would be ultimately configurable. Many things
are more configurable than XP, but I suggest that is more a failing of XP
than a nod of confidence for Vista. But many things are also less
configurable, and the O.S. is certainly less configurable than it ought to
be. There's a myriad of things this applies to from the Sidebar through to
how dialog boxes display files. I poked around in the registry abit, but I
didn't want to look up Vista's skirt that much. A couple explorer functions
I really miss are copy-to and move-to. Maybe they're there, I didn't see
them. And there's no button for them like you could add to Explorer in XP.

Other niggles: Explorers estimations of how long it takes to do things are
sometimes pretty close, and sometimes wildly off. Much worse than XP's
optimistic view-point of file transfer times. For example, I copied 1GB of
data from one drive to another. Both were reasonably quick SATA drives. The
estimation came back that it would take 1 day and some amount of hours. Part
way into the copying, Explorer now reported 30 seconds remaining. That
seemed just as optimistic as Explorer was pessimistic only moments before,
and sure enough it took another 5 minutes or so. So that algorithm needs to
be refined.

I also note that even though I'm running the x64 version on a Dual Core
processor that the O.S. does a sub-optimal job of allocating tasks to
processors. It heavily favors processor 1 (out of 2 processors, 0 & 1). I
would have thought were it to do this at all it would favor 0, but it
doesn't, and its very consistent about its preference. THAT is functional
flaw that goes to the core of the O.S. There aren't a lot of things more
basic than processor scheduling. I mean there are things much more basic,
but processor scheduling on a multi-processor rig is still a very basic core
function. Stuff like that needs to be addressed. Should have been
addressed. I've known companies whose only focus was processor scheduling in
multi-processor environments. It shouldn't be an afterthought, and "oh yeah,
lets take a look at that after we get some more glass in this window border."

The system isn't without its crashes. Explorer has crashed once. That's
better than XP, but not as good as XP X64 which I've never had Explorer crash
on.

So that's it. In a nutshell:
-Much improved
-Needs more testing to determine stability
-Interface could still using some usability modifications
-Aero is very pretty
-UAC es no bueno

;-)
 
G

Guest

Your point about Apple is a salient one and one I needed to be reminded of.
I appreciate how much more difficult it is to be able to work with thousands
of configurations versus one defined platform.

RC2 did fix a large number of the errors in RC1.
 
L

Lang Murphy

I guess the net-net here is that some folks are not having too many problems
with Vista and those folks think it's ready to go. Some folks are having a
boat load of problems, and, not surprisingly, think Vista is a POS and
nowhere near ready to go. And I think, just possibly, the folks that are
having to man the pail, as it were, might be having driver issues.

I, myself, suffered what some might term a catastrophic event last night. As
usual, when something like this happens, one wishes one had a video camera
going... but, alas, not I. Don't even remember what the heck I was doing...
there was no crash or BSOD, but after I restarted the seat at some point, I
was greeted by the blinking flat cursor after the SATA controller splash
screen. No further. Rebooted. Same thing.

Tried recovery from the Vista DVD... load the SATA controller drivers...
nada...

Tried reinstalling Vista from DVD... nada.

Tried installing XP... and the stoopid XP setup doesn't work on a KVM
apparently, so bagged that for the moment.

Booted from WinPE CD with SATA controller drivers. Can see the C: drive in
all its Vista glory. So I don't think the SATA controller is fried.

Then rebooted with the WinPE CD in the drive but did not respond to the
"press any key to boot from CD..." prompt and was greeted by a drive read
error... hmm...

So at this point, I cannot state with any conviction what the source of the
problem was... was it Vista? I'm sure many folks here would jump to that
conclusion. Or is it that my hardware, even though it's only 3 yrs old, is
the source of the problem? I don't know... I'm going to try to get this PC
back up and running with Vista... guess I'll just have to wait and see if I
can identify the problem or not.

As far as Linux goes... I had a boat load of problems with SuSE. Not the
least of which was that when it booted into Gnome, the screen was set to
640x480 and I could not resize the, hmm... whatever the util is that lets
one change resolution... (what is that? SASE or something?) I could not
change the size of the window so I could not see the all important bottom of
the window with the three buttons one must access to effect a change in
resolution. Silly. But the nail in the coffin for SuSE for me.

So... if I'm not having that many problems with Vista, regardless of the
issues others are having, it looks good to go to me. Is it good to go? I
guess we'll find out in January.

Lang
 
G

Guest

Wow. That sounds nasty. You certainly have my sympathies. You can tell how
much I enjoy computer trouble! ;-)

I don't know that I'd jump to any conclusion with the symptoms you report.
An issue like that could go either way. I've seen both hardware and software
do similar things.

I sure am jealous of your O.S. purchasing prowess. I always build my own
machines (except for the Mac & the laptop, of course) and thus have owned
full retail versions of every O.S. Microsoft has made from DOS 1.x up to XP
Pro, which was full retail, not upgrade though I was upgrade eligible, at
$300 (with plus) back in, I believe, '01. I didn't upgrade because if system
failure I didn't want the hassle of needing to install a 16-bit O.S. (98)
just so I could then install a 32-bit one. I didn't want to mix
architectures. I think I'm glad I did, because I've installed that one O.S.
over 100 times on the same machine. Nothing runs as well as a freshly
installed version. All those tools ane registry cleaners and other stuff
don't seem to work for me, so I have a slip-streamed copy with the RAID and
other drivers ready to go.

Good luck with the hardware/software problem.
 
G

Guest

I wrote another novella about my current experience with Vista. I won't post
it because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. Basically:
O.S. Slow
Search is awful
Windows Explorer is a horrorshow
Where's my MS Mouse Drivers?
Why does the O.S. keep freezing? (I put that under the slowness chapter of
the book)
Why does multi-tasking work so poorly?

I usually suspect hardware when there's issues. The buck (or I guess the
electron/photon) stops and starts at the physical layer, so when there's
trouble that's my first impulse. In this case the exact same PC was running
XP Pro x64 just dandy moments before the drive was formatted and Vista
installed, then XP Pro x64 was installed again on the same drive on the same
partition after being formatted, and now back to Vista. The experience is
duplicatable, which suggests the O.S. to me and not hardware.
 
L

Lang Murphy

Randy,

Thanks for the kind words re: getting my broken PC up and running again...
still down, and I'll peck away at it when time permits.

I've just been lucky with my OS's... got a couple of great deals on PC's
from vendor contacts that allowed me to buy new PC's when I could not have
if I had to pay full price. And the OS's came along for the ride...

I'm in full agreement that clean installs are the way to go. Vista does
change that some, due to it's new model in which every install, even
upgrading, is really a clean install. Also the Complete PC backup is pretty
cool. I admit I haven't tried it yet, but assuming it works as advertized...
way cool.

Lang
 
G

Guest

I'm with Robert on this! My performance rates as 1... mainly because of the
video card! My PC is P4 2.66gHz with only 512meg DDR RAM and it IS as fast
as XP Pro on my machine. And before anyone asks; I have a dual boot, equal
partition sizes (to keep the comparison fair!) and EXACTLY the same installed
applications on both! I'm very pleased with the results and I will be buying
once it is released! And let's not forget, it still is a pre-release for all
the name calling... MS has plenty of time to sort out last minute problems
seeing as it's not due for release until 2nd Feb 2007 (or so I have read!)
Having read 1000's on posts here, it's obvious that problems occur on one PC
and not on others with similar specs! I don't pretend to understand why, but
it just goes to show what a difficult task MS face will the miriad of
combinations of hardware/software out there! "You can't please all the
people all the time" may have a place here!

Mike
 
G

Guest

if this is the pre release version then msft is in big doodoo. Mr. Savage's
comments are right on and reflect my experiences in large part. NONE of the
vista beta drivers (mboard/video/sata/sound) work. period. no nforce, no
nvidia video, no sillicon image 3114 sata, no creative drivers) work. end of
story. Yes the hardware vendors have primary responsibility for this but
obviously they are not exactly burning the midnight oil writing drivers that
can be "signed". i have been pretty happy with my msft shares over the last
few months but i see a big dip coming when this turkey rolls out. keeping my
finger on the sell button as vista hits the stores. i am happy for those
folks who report no problems. i installed on brand new HD so there was no
prior OS to deal with.
 

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