regedit

[Sharon Franks]

Regedit gives no warning and no automatic backup if you screw up you are
screwed. Registry cleaners OTOH show you what it found, makes a backup and
can restore itself should a mistake be made. Everything requires an ok from
the user before proceeding. If the user is not sure they can click no. The
registry cleaner in ccleaner has these features.

--

Sharon Franks
MCC group
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT).

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Regedit gives no warning and no automatic backup if you screw up you are
screwed.

How likely is it, though, that altering one or two registry entries by
hand will render the computer completely unusable or unrepairable? Not
very. Just the opposite of turning loose an ill-understood automated tool.

Registry cleaners OTOH show you what it found, makes a backup ....

Not automatically, though. The user has to understand which few (out
of usually hundreds of purported "errors") issues to let the cleaner
address, and then has to remember to create a backup...

and
can restore itself should a mistake be made.

Not if that mistake has rendered the computer unbootable, as happens
all too often.

Everything requires an ok from
the user before proceeding. If the user is not sure they can click no.

Again, the user would have to know enough to sort out the one or two
real problem(s), if there are actually any, from the "background noise."
You're saying that the same user who doesn't know enough to safely
make one or two changes to the registry now, by virtue of using a
registry cleaner, suddenly knows enough to safely make potentially
hundreds of changes, all at once? That doesn't seem at all reasonable
to me.

The
registry cleaner in ccleaner has these features.

Ah. Wonderful example, which helps prove my point. CCleaner's registry
"tool" is a great source of false alarms. I tried the latest version on
a brand-new OS installation with no additional applications installed,
and certainly none installed and then uninstalled, and CCleaner still
managed to "find" over a hundred allegedly orphaned registry entries and
dozens of purportedly "suspicious" files. I do use CCleaner to
periodically clean up my hard drive, but I wouldn't recommend its
registry "cleaner" to anyone, even though it does offer to make a backup.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

None of which has any impact on system performance whatsoever. On
the other hand, a single mistake by an automated registry cleaner
could seriously impact a feature, an application, a device, or
perhaps even Windows itself.


Exactly.


I know people who swear by their reg cleaners and God bless 'em, but
I've seen the damage they can do and never recommend them.

Because most of the time, using a registry cleaner does *not* result in a
problem. The issue isn't that they always cause problems, it's that they
*sometimes* cause problems. Since they have no real benefit, and the
potential for causing problems, to me it's very clear what to do: avoid
their use.

 

[Sharon Franks]

How can it find "Hundreds" on a clean install when it finds nothing on my
system and my system is about a year old with over 30 programs installed.
What were some of these false alarms you say it finds. Would you be able to
find these allegedly orphaned registry entries and suspicious files without
the use of a reg cleaner?

--

Sharon Franks
MCC group
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT).

 

[Sharon Franks]

PaulFXH said it right. It must be a MS thing. I don't see these problems
with reg cleaners that, what it seems like, you MVP's see. In fact the only
documented instants that I've seen of a registry cleaner causing damage was
Toni Arts Easy Cleaner. But even that did not disable the system and that
bug has since been fixed.

--

Sharon Franks
MCC group
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT).

 

[Bruce Chambers]

How can it find "Hundreds" on a clean install when it finds nothing on my
system and my system is about a year old with over 30 programs installed.

How, indeed? I'd say that this clearly demonstrates to the utter
unreliability of at least one such product.

What were some of these false alarms you say it finds.

I didn't bother to log the specific results, but a great many of them
were for "unused file extensions," which are built into the registry for
application compatibility.

Would you be able to
find these allegedly orphaned registry entries and suspicious files without
the use of a reg cleaner?

Well, no, of course not. If I hadn't used the registry cleaner, I
couldn't possibly have been incorrectly and falsely "informed" of any
alleged problems.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

 

[Bruce Chambers]

PaulFXH said it right. It must be a MS thing. I don't see these problems
with reg cleaners that, what it seems like, you MVP's see.

Ah, but do you spend your entire day support and repairing computers?
From your signature, I'd presume (and I do so without meaning any
offense) that you're a consultant and/or and instructor; not necessarily
someone with day-to-day, problem-solving technical experience. It may
just be that you're simply not in the position to frequently encounter
the sort of problems that those of us in the support/repair area see on
an almost daily basis.

In fact the only
documented instants that I've seen of a registry cleaner causing damage was
Toni Arts Easy Cleaner. But even that did not disable the system and that
bug has since been fixed.

Yes, that was a good one. Similarly, though, other than advertising
copy, I've never seen any documentation that suggests using a registry
cleaner is either necessary or desirable.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

PaulFXH said it right. It must be a MS thing. I don't see these
problems with reg cleaners that, what it seems like, you MVP's see.

I've said what I had to say, and won't argue about it with you further, but
I wanted to comment on your use of the phrase "you MVP's." You say that as
if we were a uniform bunch of people, with identical views on everything.

That's not at all true. In fact we are a widely varied group, with very
different backgrounds. We are of differet ages, come from different
countries, and most important, have different levels and kinds of
experience. Some of know more about some aspects of Windws XP, others know
more about some other aspects. On almost any question, some of us may agree
on the same answer, and others will not.

And lest you think otherwise, nobody tells any of us what to say. Sometimes
I agree with a Microsoft viewpoint and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I think
Microsoft makes the best product of a particular category and I use it,
other times I prefer and use a competitors's product. One of the best things
about the MVP program, in my view, is that Microsoft makes no attempt to put
words into anyone's mouth. If it did, I wouldn't accept the title, and I
expect that most of the other MVPs here feel the same way.

What you're seeing here regarding registry cleaners is not that "you MVP's"
agree, but that most of those people here with the greatest amount of
experience tend to agree on this.

 

[Sharon Franks]

I do consulting, I teach and I provide Level 3 support to our customers. I
do practice what I preach because I have to be correct in what I consult. If
I do see or come across damage caused by reg cleaners then I will for sure
document it.

--

Sharon Franks
MCC group
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT).

 

[Sharon Franks]

I say that only going by what I've read. If it came across as harsh and
stereotypical then I apologize, it was not my intention.

--

Sharon Franks
MCC group
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT).

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

I say that only going by what I've read. If it came across as harsh
and stereotypical then I apologize, it was not my intention.

OK, apology accepted. I just wanted to be sure that neither you nor anyone
else think of MVPs as all the same. We are anything but that.

 

[Sharon Franks]

I think we agree on the same thing just in different ways. I agree that
novices should not touch the registry. I don't agree that Regedit should be
used instead or registry cleaners. It could be used along with reg cleaners
but they are basically the same thing. When registry cleaners first came out
they were automatic meaning they scanned, found and cleaned automatically
without user intervention, those were bad. Now they identify and give the
user the option on what to do and they explain why the key was found. That
is way more information then regedit gives. So a novice will have more to
think about and do research then to just blindly make modifications to their
registry.

--

Sharon Franks
MCC group
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT).

 

[Bruce Chambers]

I think we agree on the same thing just in different ways.

Perhaps to a certain extent, that's so.

I agree that
novices should not touch the registry.

Certainly no argument there.

I don't agree that Regedit should be
used instead or registry cleaners. It could be used along with reg cleaners
but they are basically the same thing.

This is the bit I don't understand. If you agree that a novice
shouldn't touch the registry, how can you think it could be safe for him
to use an automated product to do it for them? The novice won't
understand what the registry cleaner is telling him, won't understand
the importance of, or how to, make a backup before proceeding, and
certainly won't know which entries are safe to delete and which aren't;
he'll just blindly follow the software's advice.

When registry cleaners first came out
they were automatic meaning they scanned, found and cleaned automatically
without user intervention, those were bad.

And very little has changed since then; now the user is bombarded with
- to him - an abundance of meaningless information. The end result is
the same: a confused or disinterested user turning full control of his
registry over to a software product of questionable reliability and,
most importantly, of no real utility. For the novice, this is a gamble
with no chance of a real pay-off. At the very best, the registry
cleaner will do no serious harm, and the user will be no worse off then
he was before starting; at worst, in a small number of cases, the user
will end up with an unusable system. I just don't see how the risk is
worth the non-existent "reward."

Now they identify and give the
user the option on what to do and they explain why the key was found. That
is way more information then regedit gives.

But it's information that the novice cannot use in any meaningful way;
an informed decision is not being made.

So a novice will have more to
think about and do research then to just blindly make modifications to their
registry.

You've more faith in the novice's willingness to expend effort learning
than my experience has shown to be justified. Maybe you've had the good
fortune to have dealt with a more knowledgeable class of novices than
I've encountered, so far. Some will make the effort, but those are in a
very small minority.

And all this ignores my main point: using a registry cleaner - even a
safe one, should such ever be developed - is an exercise in, at best,
futility. There is no real need for registry cleaners, other than to
provide a profit to their manufacturers. On rare occasions, registry
cleaners can be, in the hands of a skilled technician, useful,
time-saving diagnostic tools. Otherwise, they're nothing but snake oil.

I don't think will ever completely agree on this subject, and that's
fine. You offer your advice, and I'll offer mine. Let the user decide
which course to take.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin