Random computer problems on an in-law's computer

[spodosaurus]

Hi all,

The other night (well, actually day turned into night) I was going to
help an in-law install a video card and migrate a windows 98 se system
to a larger hard disk drive. I was told that everything was working
fine, it just needed a better video card to play a new(ish) game. So, I
made some ghost boot floppies and a backup of my win98se install cdrom
(they had their manual with the license but couldn't find their cdrom)
and headed over. The computer was working fine, right? That's where the
fun starts, and I was hoping for some feedback as to the likely cause of
the problems I'm about to describe. I didn't bring my tools with me to
test things because everything was working...riiiiiight....

So, I can't fit both drives in at once because the Gigabyte micro ATX
motherboard (in a full size ATX case with 300W Auriga power supply)
doesn't allow enough room to fit a drive in the second hard drive bay
without removing the P4 2.4GHz CPU (the shop they went to and bought the
new hard drive from said it would be fine, but they obviously didn't try
a test fit). So I removed the old drive and set it up on a static bag
outside the case as master on IDE 1 after installing the new drive as
master on IDE 2 (I disconnected the cdrw and dvdrom drives). All set to
ghost, right? The floppy doesn't see boot media.

I connect up another spare demonstrably working floppy on the same power
connector and floppy cable (same spot), resulting in the same error. So,
maybe the power supply is messed up or the floppy controller on the
motherboard is gone or there's a problem with the floppy ribbon. They
never use the floppy, so they didn't know of the problem.

So I reconnect the optical drives and put the hard drives on the same
channel, boot into win98se, and use the Western Digital clone utility
from a cdr I brought along to clone C: to D: and everything goes fine,
with the program reporting a successful clone and that the 7 files it
did not copy over would be replaced by the operating system (files such
as cookies.txt and the like). I disconnect the old drive, put the new
drive as master, and try and reboot. The system POSTs but doesn't boot,
just hanging right before it should go to win98se.

Now I'm getting a little frustrated, so we've got a backup copy of my
win98se and the in-law's license for his win98se, and the next step we
decided on was a clean install. Unfortunately the system would freeze
after asking if we wanted to boot from the cdrom or the hard drive with
the backup copy of win98se in the old dvdrom. In the old cdrw drive it
doesn't even get this far, complaining of not liking the boot media. A
second backup of win98 (original) is tried in both drives and the
results are worse with neither drive 'seeing' the cd. Booting into
win98se from the original drive works fine, and again the drives can
read and transfer data from all cdrs.

Wondering about the PSU, I put all the devices on the same branch of
power connectors from the PSU (there are two branches). Now even the
floppy works! I'm able to do a successful clone with ghost (after
disconnecting the optical drives and putting the old drive as master on
IDE 1 and the new drive as master on IDE 2, just like I had set
originally) and the system boots into win98se. Everything is working
(beyond it identifying an unknown device in the system devices list as
well as a conflict with the haupage TV tuner card and a driver problem
with the modem wave device) and so I install the new video card and the
ATi drivers. Everything works. We install his new game, and it works on
the new card where it wouldn't with the old card. I even put the floppy
back onto the original branch of the PSU that it was on at the start
(leaving the other drives alone) and now the floppy works again and will
boot with several different boot floppies where at the beginning it
wouldn't see any!

I'm wondering what the hell happened? Is this a flaky old PSU getting
ready to die? I kept having to try and retry things and sometimes they'd
work, sometimes they wouldn't, and in the end they were working when an
hour before they were dead or functioning improperly. I didn't have my
tools or backup hardware to test these things, and it was a real hassle.
It may be working now, but I'd really like some input as to what may be
the problem or problems with this system, as most of the trouble was
well outside of windows so I can't blame it on a user screwing up the OS.

Cheers,

Ari


--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[David Maynard]

Hi all,

The other night (well, actually day turned into night) I was going to
help an in-law install a video card and migrate a windows 98 se system
to a larger hard disk drive. I was told that everything was working
fine, it just needed a better video card to play a new(ish) game. So, I
made some ghost boot floppies and a backup of my win98se install cdrom
(they had their manual with the license but couldn't find their cdrom)
and headed over. The computer was working fine, right? That's where the
fun starts, and I was hoping for some feedback as to the likely cause of
the problems I'm about to describe. I didn't bring my tools with me to
test things because everything was working...riiiiiight....

So, I can't fit both drives in at once because the Gigabyte micro ATX
motherboard (in a full size ATX case with 300W Auriga power supply)
doesn't allow enough room to fit a drive in the second hard drive bay
without removing the P4 2.4GHz CPU (the shop they went to and bought the
new hard drive from said it would be fine, but they obviously didn't try
a test fit). So I removed the old drive and set it up on a static bag
outside the case as master on IDE 1 after installing the new drive as
master on IDE 2 (I disconnected the cdrw and dvdrom drives). All set to
ghost, right? The floppy doesn't see boot media.

I connect up another spare demonstrably working floppy on the same power
connector and floppy cable (same spot), resulting in the same error. So,
maybe the power supply is messed up or the floppy controller on the
motherboard is gone or there's a problem with the floppy ribbon. They
never use the floppy, so they didn't know of the problem.

So I reconnect the optical drives and put the hard drives on the same
channel, boot into win98se, and use the Western Digital clone utility
from a cdr I brought along to clone C: to D: and everything goes fine,
with the program reporting a successful clone and that the 7 files it
did not copy over would be replaced by the operating system (files such
as cookies.txt and the like). I disconnect the old drive, put the new
drive as master, and try and reboot. The system POSTs but doesn't boot,
just hanging right before it should go to win98se.

Now I'm getting a little frustrated, so we've got a backup copy of my
win98se and the in-law's license for his win98se, and the next step we
decided on was a clean install. Unfortunately the system would freeze
after asking if we wanted to boot from the cdrom or the hard drive with
the backup copy of win98se in the old dvdrom. In the old cdrw drive it
doesn't even get this far, complaining of not liking the boot media. A
second backup of win98 (original) is tried in both drives and the
results are worse with neither drive 'seeing' the cd. Booting into
win98se from the original drive works fine, and again the drives can
read and transfer data from all cdrs.

Wondering about the PSU, I put all the devices on the same branch of
power connectors from the PSU (there are two branches). Now even the
floppy works! I'm able to do a successful clone with ghost (after
disconnecting the optical drives and putting the old drive as master on
IDE 1 and the new drive as master on IDE 2, just like I had set
originally) and the system boots into win98se. Everything is working
(beyond it identifying an unknown device in the system devices list as
well as a conflict with the haupage TV tuner card and a driver problem
with the modem wave device) and so I install the new video card and the
ATi drivers. Everything works. We install his new game, and it works on
the new card where it wouldn't with the old card. I even put the floppy
back onto the original branch of the PSU that it was on at the start
(leaving the other drives alone) and now the floppy works again and will
boot with several different boot floppies where at the beginning it
wouldn't see any!

I'm wondering what the hell happened? Is this a flaky old PSU getting
ready to die? I kept having to try and retry things and sometimes they'd
work, sometimes they wouldn't, and in the end they were working when an
hour before they were dead or functioning improperly. I didn't have my
tools or backup hardware to test these things, and it was a real hassle.
It may be working now, but I'd really like some input as to what may be
the problem or problems with this system, as most of the trouble was
well outside of windows so I can't blame it on a user screwing up the OS.

Cheers,

Ari

Always hard to tell when unable to see the system for one's self but it
sounds like drive master/slave configuration problems. Western Digital has
*two* master settings: master with slave and single drive.

 

[spodosaurus]

Always hard to tell when unable to see the system for one's self but it
sounds like drive master/slave configuration problems. Western Digital
has *two* master settings: master with slave and single drive.

I was aware of that beforehand and made sure the jumpers were configured
properly on all drives throughout the 'ordeal'

Ari

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[senn]

I was aware of that beforehand and made sure the jumpers were configured
properly on all drives throughout the 'ordeal'

Ari

heck for me this is normal having issues. *lol*

i work with ancient hardware.

i often tell the people i do it free for that they should go sacrifice a
goat and pray for the processes success at whatever altar they worship at.
as they are africans they love the sense of humor.

if a day comes along where a system upgrade just works i mark it down as a
miracle. *lol*

 

[dg]

tools or backup hardware to test these things, and it was a real hassle.
It may be working now, but I'd really like some input as to what may be
the problem or problems with this system, as most of the trouble was well
outside of windows so I can't blame it on a user screwing up the OS.

I can't say what happened. What I can tell you is that you shouldn't put
RUNNING components on anti-static material. Anti-static material is
typically CONDUCTIVE. When I run hard drives outside the PC case
temporarily for ghosting I usually use a CD case or a cardboard box to set
the drive on. Who knows what would happen if the circuit board on the
bottom had all of the exposed solder connections connected through the
anti-static bag.

--Dan

 

[David Maynard]

I was aware of that beforehand and made sure the jumpers were configured
properly on all drives throughout the 'ordeal'

Ari

Figures. It's never the 'easy' one

Could be the static bag was a problem because they're slightly conductive.

 

[spodosaurus]

I can't say what happened. What I can tell you is that you shouldn't put
RUNNING components on anti-static material. Anti-static material is
typically CONDUCTIVE. When I run hard drives outside the PC case
temporarily for ghosting I usually use a CD case or a cardboard box to set
the drive on. Who knows what would happen if the circuit board on the
bottom had all of the exposed solder connections connected through the
anti-static bag.

--Dan

What is your reference for this? Anti static materials are supposed to
be non conductive to prevent just the sort of things you're worried about.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[spodosaurus]

Figures. It's never the 'easy' one

Could be the static bag was a problem because they're slightly conductive.

The new drive was never on the bag, though, only the old drive which
never missed a beat (neither did the new drive once the ghosting was
finished). It also doesn't explain the floppy drive and other weirdness
when no connected drives were on the bag (which was most of the time
that I was fartsing around, I just didn't list every last thing I did
during the hours of wanting to bash the PC with a hammer as my original
post was already long).

I've never heard that the static bags were conductive, though. I was
under the impression that they're quite the opposite to prevent charge
reaching the materials that they contain. Do you have a reference for
this? Like something general that might point out other interesting
tidbits that would be good for me to know? dg also pointed this out in
this thread.

Ari



--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[John Doe]

dg wrote:
....

What is your reference for this? Anti static materials are supposed
to be non conductive to prevent just the sort of things you're
worried about.

I think antistatic material is supposed to be conductive to keep all
points at the same voltage. It would also help dissipate static
electricity arriving at any one point.

A very bright high school student said something like that to me
once, that he didn't understand why humidity would help dissipate
static electricity. Humidity (water vapor) is conductive.

 

[David Maynard]

The new drive was never on the bag, though, only the old drive which
never missed a beat (neither did the new drive once the ghosting was
finished). It also doesn't explain the floppy drive and other weirdness
when no connected drives were on the bag (which was most of the time
that I was fartsing around, I just didn't list every last thing I did
during the hours of wanting to bash the PC with a hammer as my original
post was already long).

Sorry, I thought you had said the motherboard was on the "static bag."

I've never heard that the static bags were conductive, though. I was
under the impression that they're quite the opposite to prevent charge
reaching the materials that they contain. Do you have a reference for
this? Like something general that might point out other interesting
tidbits that would be good for me to know? dg also pointed this out in
this thread.

Conductivity is what makes them work. How conductive depends on the type.
'Anti-static' only is very high resistance and only protects from creating
static from the normal friction process. One that 'shields' from
electrostatic fields will have a much lower resistance.

The plastic 'bag' portion generally acts as a discharge barrier.

See here

http://www.3m.com/market/electronic/ehpd/technical_papers/article03.jhtml

I don't now which type yours is.

 

[spodosaurus]

I think antistatic material is supposed to be conductive to keep all
points at the same voltage. It would also help dissipate static
electricity arriving at any one point.

A very bright high school student said something like that to me
once, that he didn't understand why humidity would help dissipate
static electricity. Humidity (water vapor) is conductive.

I'm still hoping someone can give me a site that has this sort of
information and other related information so that I can do some reading
and avoid making these types of errors. I've seen static bags used in
case-mods and in industry in exactly the way I was using it (but it was
only in use for a small number of the problems, and generally there
weren't problems when it was in use in this case), but that doesn't mean
that 'just because everyone else is doing it' that it's the right thing.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[spodosaurus]

David Maynard wrote:

Sorry, I thought you had said the motherboard was on the "static bag."

Nope, motherboard was in the case and properly installed. The only thing
I did with that was reset to failsafe defaults after the problems
started and change the boot order sometimes.

Conductivity is what makes them work. How conductive depends on the
type. 'Anti-static' only is very high resistance and only protects from
creating static from the normal friction process. One that 'shields'
from electrostatic fields will have a much lower resistance.

The plastic 'bag' portion generally acts as a discharge barrier.

See here

http://www.3m.com/market/electronic/ehpd/technical_papers/article03.jhtml

I don't now which type yours is.

Thanks, I'll have a read through!


--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[David Maynard]

David Maynard wrote:




Nope, motherboard was in the case and properly installed. The only thing
I did with that was reset to failsafe defaults after the problems
started and change the boot order sometimes.
Gremlins




Thanks, I'll have a read through!

 

[dg]

I'm still hoping someone can give me a site that has this sort of
information and other related information so that I can do some reading
and avoid making these types of errors. I've seen static bags used in
case-mods and in industry in exactly the way I was using it (but it was
only in use for a small number of the problems, and generally there
weren't problems when it was in use in this case), but that doesn't mean
that 'just because everyone else is doing it' that it's the right thing.

Do a google search for CONDUCTIVE BAG and take a look at what comes back.
Don't even include the word "static" in your search, just CONDUCTIVE BAG.

--Dan