RAID, SCHMAID.......

S

sublimeone

Looking to by a ASUS A8N for a Athlon 64 x2.

For storage I was looking to put two sata 3gb/s (100 gig/7200) drives on a
RAID 0 for all my applications/games and then another 300 gig/7200 drive as
a media drive for all my photos, music, and video.

Is it worthwhile to buy three drives for the above and create the RAID 0 +
MEDIA drive or should I just buy a 200 gig 7200 3gb/s for the apps and
another 300 gig 7200 for media? What speed difference am I looking at?
Is there a huge difference between a SATA II RAID and a 3gb/s RAID?


TIA
 
C

Curious George

Looking to by a ASUS A8N for a Athlon 64 x2.

For storage I was looking to put two sata 3gb/s (100 gig/7200) drives on a
RAID 0 for all my applications/games and then another 300 gig/7200 drive as
a media drive for all my photos, music, and video.

Is it worthwhile to buy three drives for the above and create the RAID 0 +
MEDIA drive or should I just buy a 200 gig 7200 3gb/s for the apps and
another 300 gig 7200 for media? What speed difference am I looking at?
Is there a huge difference between a SATA II RAID and a 3gb/s RAID?

If you do a lot of chewing on very large files RAID 0 is good.
Otherwise there is some benefit, but IMHO it's probably smarter to put
your os & apps on a 10K or 15K drive than a 7.2k raid 0.
 
R

Rod Speed

sublimeone said:
Looking to by a ASUS A8N for a Athlon 64 x2.
For storage I was looking to put two sata 3gb/s (100 gig/7200) drives
on a RAID 0 for all my applications/games and then another 300
gig/7200 drive as a media drive for all my photos, music, and video.
Is it worthwhile to buy three drives for the
above and create the RAID 0 + MEDIA drive

Waste of time with modern drives and digital media IMO.
or should I just buy a 200 gig 7200 3gb/s for
the apps and another 300 gig 7200 for media?
Yep.

What speed difference am I looking at?

Bugger all. Bet you wouldnt be able to pick
it in a proper randomised double blind trial.
Is there a huge difference between
a SATA II RAID and a 3gb/s RAID?

Nope, a surprisingly small one, actually.
 
S

sublimeone

If you do a lot of chewing on very large files RAID 0 is good.
Otherwise there is some benefit, but IMHO it's probably smarter to put
your os & apps on a 10K or 15K drive than a 7.2k raid 0.


You're probably right and Rod Speed seems to agree with you. If by chewing
on large files you mean 6-40 meg photo RAWs and PSD's as wells as MP3s and
DVD rips then I should probably look into the RAID, NO?
 
P

Peter

You're probably right and Rod Speed seems to agree with you. If by
chewing
on large files you mean 6-40 meg photo RAWs and PSD's as wells as MP3s and
DVD rips then I should probably look into the RAID, NO?

Not necessarily. In some situations might be better to get 8GB of RAM,
Windows XP Prof x64 and work off 7GB ramdisk.
 
A

Arno Wagner

Previously Curious George said:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 23:01:06 GMT, sublimeone
If you do a lot of chewing on very large files RAID 0 is good.
Otherwise there is some benefit, but IMHO it's probably smarter to put
your os & apps on a 10K or 15K drive than a 7.2k raid 0.

Definitely. RAID0 will do nothing for access time.

Arno
 
R

Rod Speed

You're probably right and Rod Speed seems to agree with you. If by
chewing on large files you mean 6-40 meg photo RAWs and PSD's as
wells as MP3s and DVD rips then I should probably look into the RAID, NO?

No, those work fine on normal 7200 rpm drives.
 
T

timeOday

sublimeone said:
Looking to by a ASUS A8N for a Athlon 64 x2.

For storage I was looking to put two sata 3gb/s (100 gig/7200) drives on a
RAID 0 for all my applications/games and then another 300 gig/7200 drive as
a media drive for all my photos, music, and video.

Is it worthwhile to buy three drives for the above and create the RAID 0 +
MEDIA drive or should I just buy a 200 gig 7200 3gb/s for the apps and
another 300 gig 7200 for media? What speed difference am I looking at?
Is there a huge difference between a SATA II RAID and a 3gb/s RAID?


TIA

Do you need 200 gig for your system drive? If I partition at all, I
usually make a 20gig system partition and it is more than enough. But
I'm not a gamer.

IMHO the real reason to have a second drive is for making backups.
RAID (any level) is not a backup. Raid doesn't protect you against
accidental deletion or modification.
 
S

sublimeone

Do you need 200 gig for your system drive? If I partition at all, I
usually make a 20gig system partition and it is more than enough. But
I'm not a gamer.

yes. I want one drive (or RAID) dedicated for apps/games as not to clutter
up the HD with MP3s/PHOTOS/DVD's, etc..

What type of HD are you partitioning?



IMHO the real reason to have a second drive is for making backups.
RAID (any level) is not a backup. Raid doesn't protect you against
accidental deletion or modification.


Yes, and my brother is currently dealing with the downside of RAID0.

Is it even a good idea to have a dedicated media drive?
TIA
 
C

Curious George

You're probably right and Rod Speed seems to agree with you. If by chewing
on large files you mean 6-40 meg photo RAWs and PSD's as wells as MP3s and

No. That's not a very compelling argument for raid.
DVD rips then I should probably look into the RAID, NO?

DVD rips- eh...

How frequent? That also tends to work pretty well on single drives.
I'm thinking about being more heavily entrenched in large disk work.

You also have to weigh the cost (including headaches)/benefits. Load
balancing with faster disks tends to be a more sane & beneficial
approach to ATA raid0 in most circumstances. Tiering the storage also
makes sense for the wallet.
 
T

timeOday

sublimeone said:
yes. I want one drive (or RAID) dedicated for apps/games as not to clutter
up the HD with MP3s/PHOTOS/DVD's, etc..

What type of HD are you partitioning?








Yes, and my brother is currently dealing with the downside of RAID0.

Is it even a good idea to have a dedicated media drive?

I don't see the point of having a dedicated media drive. If you want a
firm line between your "system" stuff and your "media" stuff, just
partition your drive instead.

But either way, you do need a second drive for backups.

How about this? Get one 250 gig drive, use 50 gig for your system and
200 gig for your media files. Get a second 250 gig drive in an exernal
usb2 enclosure, and periodically copy the internal drive over to the
external. That way you have a backup of all your data, plus you can
take it with you to listen to your music or watch movies at somebody's
house or whatever. For that matter, the second backup/portable drive
doesn't need to be as big and fast as your system drive, so long as you
can back up everything you care about and store any media you want to be
portable. Maybe you already have an older drive that would work fine
with an enclosure.
 
S

sublimeone

No. That's not a very compelling argument for raid.
i've learned that it's not so i'll work with two separate drives. Should i
partition the c: drive into c: and d: (c for apps/games d: for the os) and
then a separate e: for media?
 
R

Rod Speed

i've learned that it's not so i'll work with two separate drives.
Should i partition the c: drive into c: and d: (c for apps/games
d: for the os) and then a separate e: for media?

Really depends on how you do your backups and what you use for that.

If you use a crude imager for backup like Ghost, there is
something to be said for having what you choose not to
backup in a separate partition to what you choose to backup.

You dont need a separate partition if you are using a decent
modern backup ute, or the best imager like True Image.

There isnt a lot of point in separating the apps/games from
the OS partition wise because if you need to reinstall the OS
you will have to reinstall most of the apps/games again too.
 
C

Curious George

i've learned that it's not so i'll work with two separate drives. Should i
partition the c: drive into c: and d: (c for apps/games d: for the os) and
then a separate e: for media?

Almost always yes. Some tips:

Don't make C: too big. But you do want to allow for growth and always
be running with more than 20% free space in any volume. Be as
disciplined as possible about putting user data of every kind
elsewhere.

When it is a manually configured PC I like to have C: imaged or cloned
so if there is a problem you can be back up in minutes. I also like
to keep logs of what was installed or updated and keep them with & in
the system images so I know exactly what's where & done when. It
helps in troubleshooting, & routine as well as non-routine restores.
Furthermore you need to back up these images elsewhere. Just having a
system image somewhere is not a backup - it's a point-in-time snapshot
which can go poof like anything else.

C: & the C: image set is always being altered as needs change or
updates come out, and its purpose is solely to save the time to
reinstall & reconfigure. IMHO it doesn't make sense to try to
coordinate that with your personal data (a different animal entirely).
For one thing system restores via images are destructive. So D: and
above are user data which are backed up through a different, more
traditional file type backup approach with some retention. Really I'm
suggesting you give thought from the beginning about using partitions
as well as folders to help organize how you generate, backup & restore
all your data. This sounds obvious, but so many ppl make a mess of
things esp with today's big drives.

It's at this point some ppl start asking about a NAS or have a file
sever online. The idea is consolidation, organization, and online
duplicates of important files. It's typically unnecessary for a
single user but can often be of value for even small home networks.
Stay where you are now, though. Sort out your needs on a single
machine first. I'm just planting a seed that may never need to take.

I like to reserve E: as the first optical drive, but that's just an
old habbit/personal preference. As I do that, take advantage of
labeling & drive letters to make things easy to remember & navigate.
Sounds obvious but little things help.

Give some thought to having temp files & folders or the files you
"chew on" on the second disk (or projects divided among the disks) for
performance considerations. Through planning you can reduce being
bogged down by Disk IO with certain kinds of multitasking, etc. This
is where you can get some extra peppiness outside of or in addition to
what raid or 10K+ drives or other new drives bring to the table.

There was prior reference in this thread to using the second drive for
backups. Having just a second copy on a second media is insufficient.
Furthermore any online media is subject to a host of potential data
jeopardizing problems. So maybe instead of a second drive you want 2
second drives in drive trays or enclosures. Maybe you want more than
that kind of minimal protection, i.e. Grandfather-Father-Son, etc.

IMHO these types of considerations, plans, & work habits are far more
important and contribute far more to productivity (& your sanity) than
ATA Raid 0 or SATA II 3gbs. They are also technology agnostic. These
decisions you make can be applied to any workstation storage type.
They hopefully will stay with you as core computing practices & will
evolve over time.

So much for your "is raid0 worth it" type question.

Good luck.
 
G

Gerhard Fiedler

Rod said:
There isnt a lot of point in separating the apps/games from the OS
partition wise because if you need to reinstall the OS you will have to
reinstall most of the apps/games again too.

This is correct, and there isn't /much/ of a point in it. But I still find
it useful, because it serves as a reminder what needs to be installed. And
many of the smaller utilities that don't need a deep system install just
continue to work, and those that have their configuration files with their
executables even continue to work with the same configuration.

Gerhard
 
A

Arno Wagner

Previously Gerhard Fiedler said:
Rod Speed wrote:
This is correct, and there isn't /much/ of a point in it. But I still find
it useful, because it serves as a reminder what needs to be installed. And
many of the smaller utilities that don't need a deep system install just
continue to work, and those that have their configuration files with their
executables even continue to work with the same configuration.

Since I do nonly gaming with WIndwos I can only comment on that.
From my experience many games do not need to be reinstalled if
you reinstall Windows. You just have to find the executable
program manually sto start them, since the icon and menue entry
are gone.

There are some exceptions. For example Deus EX II insisted on storing
its save games under "My Documents". Pretty stupid design, IMO,
as it filled up my C: drive.

Arno
 
R

Rod Speed

Gerhard Fiedler said:
Rod Speed wrote
This is correct, and there isn't /much/ of a point in it. But I still
find
it useful, because it serves as a reminder what needs to be installed.

I think its stupid to have to wear the downsides of separate
partitions just for that. The obvious downsides are that its
never that easy to decide what size those partitions should
be, particular what size they will need to be over time, and
that its dangerous to resize them without full images etc.

Much safer and less likely to bite to have them all in the same partition.
And many of the smaller utilities that don't need
a deep system install just continue to work,

Yes, but I doubt too many actually use many of those
anymore. And that is why I used the word most.
and those that have their configuration files with their executables
even continue to work with the same configuration.

Sure, but again, they aint that common anymore, for a damned good reason.
 
R

Rod Speed

The lettering is undesirable, better to have C for the OS.
Almost always yes.

Fraid not, hardly ever in fact.
Some tips:
Don't make C: too big. But you do want to allow for growth and
always be running with more than 20% free space in any volume.

And its quite hard to predict that, particularly how that will change
over time. And risky to change it later without a full image backup.
Be as disciplined as possible about
putting user data of every kind elsewhere.

Complete waste of time. And risky too because that config
will never be as comprehensively debugged and so can bite.
When it is a manually configured PC I like to have C: imaged
or cloned so if there is a problem you can be back up in minutes.

You cant do that if the OS and apps are in separate partitions.
I also like to keep logs of what was installed or updated and keep them
with & in the system images so I know exactly what's where & done when.

Wota waste of time.
It helps in troubleshooting, & routine as well as non-routine
restores. Furthermore you need to back up these images
elsewhere. Just having a system image somewhere is not a backup
- it's a point-in-time snapshot which can go poof like anything else.

Mindless stuff. The real problem is that a complex system like
Win can make changes without you be aware of those changes.
C: & the C: image set is always being altered
as needs change or updates come out,

And the system keeps track of how you use the system.
and its purpose is solely to save the time to reinstall & reconfigure.

Pity that just saving the OS partition wont do that, you have to
save the D partition too to be able to do that, and so they might
as well be in same partition so you cant forget to save them both.
IMHO it doesn't make sense to try to coordinate that with your
personal data (a different animal entirely). For one thing system
restores via images are destructive. So D: and above are user
data which are backed up through a different, more traditional
file type backup approach with some retention.

That just complicated things for simple
users and isnt likely to be done reliably.
Really I'm suggesting you give thought from the beginning about
using partitions as well as folders to help organize how you
generate, backup & restore all your data. This sounds obvious,
but so many ppl make a mess of things esp with today's big drives.

You dont necessarily need to backup ALL the data.
It's at this point some ppl start asking about a NAS or have a file
sever online. The idea is consolidation, organization, and online
duplicates of important files. It's typically unnecessary for a
single user but can often be of value for even small home networks.

And it can be a lot simpler to just put full images there.
Stay where you are now, though. Sort out your needs on a single
machine first. I'm just planting a seed that may never need to take.
I like to reserve E: as the first optical drive, but
that's just an old habbit/personal preference.

Makes more sense to reserve a later
letter for that with that many partitions.
As I do that, take advantage of labeling & drive letters to make things
easy to remember & navigate. Sounds obvious but little things help.

Some of us dont bother with the letters anymore for that.
Give some thought to having temp files & folders or
the files you "chew on" on the second disk (or projects
divided among the disks) for performance considerations.

Complete waste of time with modern systems.

The world's moved on.
Through planning you can reduce being bogged down
by Disk IO with certain kinds of multitasking, etc.

Hardly ever with modern systems.
This is where you can get some extra peppiness outside of or in addition
to what raid or 10K+ drives or other new drives bring to the table.

There is no table.
There was prior reference in this thread to using the second drive for
backups. Having just a second copy on a second media is insufficient.
Furthermore any online media is subject to a host of potential data
jeopardizing problems. So maybe instead of a second drive you want
2 second drives in drive trays or enclosures.

No thanks. Most of them flout the drive standards and even
when they dont they are too hard to cool reliably and quietly.
Maybe you want more than that kind of minimal
protection, i.e. Grandfather-Father-Son, etc.

Not necessarily for the OS/apps partition tho
with modern OS that support restore points.
IMHO these types of considerations, plans, & work habits are far more
important and contribute far more to productivity (& your sanity) than
ATA Raid 0 or SATA II 3gbs. They are also technology agnostic.

No they arent.
These decisions you make can be applied to any workstation storage type.

They arent necessarily practical with some.
They hopefully will stay with you as core
computing practices & will evolve over time.

Yours arent evolving with the OS capabilitys.
 
C

Curious George

The lettering is undesirable, better to have C for the OS.


Fraid not, hardly ever in fact.

I misread. I thought he meant C: for Windows & apps.
And its quite hard to predict that, particularly how that will change
over time. And risky to change it later without a full image backup.

Nah. We're talking ballpark figures here. Also the massive games &
CD/DVD reference titles & such probably don't belong on C: and in the
System images anyway. Too cumbersome. All those big maps,
screenshots, etc could also bee seen as "user data." That contains
things very often to under 10 gigs. But he has access to a computer
now - so that's all he needs to estimate & then tack some extra space
on there for good measure. If he outgrows it in a year or two, big
woop. Easily fixed. The old images would still be good.
Complete waste of time. And risky too because that config
will never be as comprehensively debugged and so can bite.

That's rubbish. I'm talking about everything the user creates or
downloads as well as a script or .reg or whatever can accomplish what
he tweaked. I'm not talking about everything in the "C:\Documents and
Settings\User\" including "Application Data," "Local Settings" & the
like. Simple folder direction is like 90% of it.
You cant do that if the OS and apps are in separate partitions.

Well I'm not recommending that - but you're wrong anyway. The system
image just has to be in step with the installations & only in certain
occurrence the updates also. It's more clunkey when you install apps
to a different partition, & then restore only the OS, but still very
doable.
Wota waste of time.

Sure if things are pretty static with all 100% trusted apps. But I
doubt that is a case with someone asking about RAID0 and partitioning.
It's helpful elsewhere as well.
Mindless stuff. The real problem is that a complex system like
Win can make changes without you be aware of those changes.

Right. Hence the history for troubleshooting & backtracking.
And the system keeps track of how you use the system.

No. For best results the images should be clean & without use - soley
the result of installation & configuration. It's often worth the time
to rollback to create a new, current, authoritative config. It seems
like a waste but it's really a time investment that pays off when you
end up bypassing many other issues & troubleshooting sessions
entirely.

In practice I don't usually do it exactly this way anymore. I'm a big
fan or repackaging apps for automated distribution. Often there is a
core image of OS & drivers. (This can provide a faster restore than
RIS, etc.) Then everything gets installed & updated on bootup. Still
a compromise. & yes there's still a paper trail - but not the
tremendous manual task you're imagining.

Now I don't think he should attempt to undertake this now. But if
he's experimenting and pusing the limits of the machine and/or his
knowledge he needs to be diciplined in what he does lest when things
go wrong its overwheling or subject to "superstition" rather than
accurate analysis & repair.
Pity that just saving the OS partition wont do that, you have to
save the D partition too to be able to do that, and so they might
as well be in same partition so you cant forget to save them both.

Not if you install everything in C: like I'm proposing. Also not if
what's installed to D: didn't go through an update that affected both.
That just complicated things for simple
users and isnt likely to be done reliably.

It's not complicated if the system is well organized and the file
backup is automatic or you set reminders to do a predefined job and
the image procedure comes whenever you sit down to configure.

Simple users aren't likely to do anything reliably. It's their
problem if they cannot fully utilize their system or failsafes.

But really these two approaches involve different compromises and
emphasize different strengths. One is easier on the onset, the other
involves a little more planning but is safer and is quicker to recover
& acknowledges & plans for the reality of how problems arise in the
real world as well as how lifecycle & upgrades work.
You dont necessarily need to backup ALL the data.

If you don't have a lot of disposable time you need to back up
ANYTHING that would take time to replace. Not just the stuff you'd
"slash your wrists" if you lost. But look who I'm talking to. The
guy with all the time in the world. ;)
And it can be a lot simpler to just put full images there.



Makes more sense to reserve a later
letter for that with that many partitions.

Perhaps. It's personal preference.

I like

A: 1st Floppy
C: 1st HDD
E: 1st optical

Because that's the way it was years ago and the letters make a musical
triad. :cool:

Lately I find myself often making R: 1st recordable drive, V: 1st
virtual cdrom, etc. So even I'm moving away from that myself. But
it's only the basic idea of establishing personal conventions I'm
selling to him.
Some of us dont bother with the letters anymore for that.

Maybe I was unclear. I don't mean he should further partition for
organizational purposes. But when you mount the volume you have to
calll it something. Sometimes there's value in using a letter other
than what's next and leaving it labeled "New Volume." It's a minor
point, though, that probably doesn't warrant all this discussion.
Complete waste of time with modern systems.
Rubbish

The world's moved on.

to what exactly? So I guess load balancing for networks is obsolete
as well?
Hardly ever with modern systems.

Rubbish. All the time with common disk intensive tasks i.e.
archiving, archive testing, slipstreaming, mainting virtual disks,
repackaging, usenet warzing, etc.etc.etc
There is no table.
cute.


No thanks. Most of them flout the drive standards and even
when they dont they are too hard to cool reliably and quietly.

It's doable but barely minimalistic. It's not what I use for personal
use either.

Tell us Rod, if "Tape has passed its useby date" how do you handle
these backup HDDs.? I mean I know you copy stuff to other computers
on your home LAN but how to you take copies offline for safekeeping?
Not necessarily for the OS/apps partition tho
with modern OS that support restore points.

Has nothing to do with media rotation & doesn't fully address the
needs of a robust backup scheme. Frankly I wouldn't trust my data to
SR. Much too limiting & minimalistic.
No they arent.

Bullshit. Organization, backup systems, media rotation, load
balancing & general planning are concepts that are separate from
specific storage interface, spindle speed, etc. They are only
connected when the planning includes tiered storage, but even then the
principles are the same regardeless of specific products.
They arent necessarily practical with some.

There are no hard & fast rules here. Only basic principles &
alternate solutions for him to reflect on and decide what works for
him.
Yours arent evolving with the OS capabilitys.

Rubbish. It's true though I still have limited faith in overly
complex OS's with insufficently protected design, that have not yet
evolved enough. They are still too vulnerable to too much which too
easily compromises their "capabilities". I never said he shouldn't
use SR - or that I never so. But, since you bring it up, it is overly
limiting & foolhardy to have a primary reliance on IMHO.
 
G

Gerhard Fiedler

Rod said:
I think its stupid ...

Matter of taste... can't really be stupid (nor intelligent, for that
matter). Either you like it or you don't.
... to have to wear the downsides of separate partitions just for that.
The obvious downsides are that its never that easy to decide what size
those partitions should be, particular what size they will need to be
over time, and that its dangerous to resize them without full images
etc.

Hm... I don't know what you do with your system, but for me 8GB are way
enough (given that there are no applications installed besides the ones
that come with Windows), and 8GB is pocket change with the disk sizes these
days. No need to resize. Even if I should have to resize, resizing has
never created a problem for me, and a full, restorable backup (whether
image or otherwise) is something one should have anyway.
Much safer and less likely to bite to have them all in the same
partition.

I haven't had to resize the system partition, and I don't see that coming.
What else would be unsafe with the applications installed on a separate
partition?
Yes, but I doubt too many actually use many of those anymore. And that
is why I used the word most.

Yes, and that's why I said "not much of a point"... but for me there's
still a point, and since it doesn't have any downsides (for me, in the way
I use it), the small point is what makes the difference.

Gerhard
 

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